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Kai Tave posted:"Oh yeah Hero, I used to play that" Greetings.
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Nov 2, 2015 19:54
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My experience with Hero has mostly been 'Folks who come into other supers games and get kind of pugnacious about them not doing everything Hero does, generally by naming a weird a corner case rule' Also, awful, awful people who are all "But no, see, the Speed chart meaning I get two-three times more chances to act in a given scene than someone who didn't know what they were doing and just built a strong tough brick is great design and has no balance issues at all"
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Nov 2, 2015 20:00
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I've tried to play HERO a few times, and I was briefly on a MUSH that used Champions to some success, but they seemed to have one system guru administrator who took concepts and churned out sheets, or tweaked sheets for functionality and optimization. Once upon a time, I was in love with the idea of the system-- everything from gear on up is built on points, everything is ostensibly balanced point for point, it was like the Grand Unified Theory of gaming. Now? No, no. gently caress no. I'd rather use GURPS Vehicles to design armed go-karts for arbitrarily large children. There's a video out there of the sixth edition book stopping a goddamn bullet. I don't need that kind of rules density any more. Give me M&M or something, where the traps are obvious, or even a storygame.
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Nov 2, 2015 20:09
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Bieeardo posted:they seemed to have one system guru administrator who took concepts and churned out sheets, or tweaked sheets for functionality and optimization. Yeah, this is what my GM did the one campaign I played in.
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Nov 2, 2015 20:13
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unseenlibrarian posted:My experience with Hero has mostly been 'Folks who come into other supers games and get kind of pugnacious about them not doing everything Hero does, generally by naming a weird a corner case rule' I remember one time that someone on RPGnet was weighing in on the versatility and universality of the Hero system by proudly stating "You can even use the Hero system to stat up a coffee mug if you wanted!" Like this was supposed to be a selling point, the ability to stat up common household wares.
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Nov 2, 2015 20:15
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My experience in an ongoing Champions game divided sessions into two types: RP or combat, because once combat started, that would be the whole session. And we're talking 4-6 hour sessions. I didn't like it.
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Nov 2, 2015 20:22
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Halloween Jack posted:Most of the well-known universal systems out there (not to mention superhero games) seem to me like an absolute shitshow if you just throw open the gates to your players and say "You have X points, make a character for a game in Y genre." IME this results in hours-long character creation, and the players are totally adrift when it comes to making characters who are effective, balanced, and suitable for the adventure the GM is running. It's at least mildly acceptable for something as broad as "Silver Age superheroes," although it's no guarantee of balance. But if you want the game to have much of an identity at all, handling character creation this way is practically requiring the players to write big chunks of the rulebook themselves, but in a hurry and with very poor communication. (Games involving vehicles or special weapons compounds the problem.) The thing about running or playing Hero in my experience is that, yeah, it has a steep curve, but moreso, the GM needs to absolutely keep some hands on the reins and tell the players what sort of limits they have to work with, list them out in advance based on the game, and needs to pay attention to where the game throws warning and stop signs on abilities. It frontloads a LOT of responsibility for auditing characters at the start of the game if you want to ensure that poo poo is balanced in any manner. If you end up with a free-for-all of going "Well, sure, stick 40 different attacks into your Multipower" or "Yeah Telekinesis is too pricey for what I wanna pay, just ignoring what it says and buying Strength with Range because it's half price" or "Y'know, I think that buying a Killing Attack that does 10d6 in a game where we are building off of 400 points is reasonable and will never cause a problem" or otherwise just run roughshod over the things it suggests to balance it out some, you are doomed from the start. You can make it very balanced without a huge amount of effort as a GM, but you need to actively do so or you get a shitshow. However, it also puts lot onto the players as well. Lots of other games suggest having an idea or theme first, and then making your character; in Hero, it's basically mandatory, as otherwise you are so wide open on what can go where that you can fumble about for hours. Character theme and focus is so important to keep in mind as a player that I have build supers in about 2-3 hours using pdfs and the notepad (both on my phone) when I had a strong tight concept, and then without one spent an afternoon just puttering around on the Character Builder not getting anywhere. In the end, it isn't a gentle game or easy to work with at the start, but it does indeed mostly give you what you need in advice and info to properly constrain the game as a GM so you don't have brigades of wacky bullshit happening, if you know the system decently well. If you don't, good loving luck and I hope it shakes out well for you (it likely won't unless the players collude to make it do so). Alien Rope Burn posted:My experience in an ongoing Champions game divided sessions into two types: RP or combat, because once combat started, that would be the whole session. That can happen, which is a big downside in any game. It lets you go really deeply into a lot of minutia in aiming attacks at body parts and resolving all sorts of crap that will take ages, and while it tries to give you help on cutting that poo poo down, it doesn't do a great job at helping you avoid the 4 hour fights.
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Nov 2, 2015 20:36
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I admire HERO for its dedication to point-buy, for the idea that if you drill deep enough, you really can stat a coffee cup. I've seen other games get weird when it comes to mundane equipment vs. innate powers, but building everything out of that same mass of primal points definitely helps to keep that under control. You really need a fair number of examples to work from though, be they equipment lists or rogue's galleries.
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Nov 2, 2015 20:58
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Bieeardo posted:I admire HERO for its dedication to point-buy, for the idea that if you drill deep enough, you really can stat a coffee cup. I've seen other games get weird when it comes to mundane equipment vs. innate powers, but building everything out of that same mass of primal points definitely helps to keep that under control. You really need a fair number of examples to work from though, be they equipment lists or rogue's galleries. It's also got the problem where mundane equipment is pretty much ignored when it comes to character creation, which could be a good thing or a bad thing. There's nothing stopping a beginning character from having an arsenal of stinger missiles apart from the GM sort of telling them "hey don't do that."
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Nov 2, 2015 21:05
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To be fair, I don't think it's possible for a universal superhero game to be balanced without GM intervention. (As opposed to one with specific, defined powers like Double Cross, or a heavily narrative game like Marvel Heroic Roleplaying, which isn't really balanced either.)
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Nov 2, 2015 21:10
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I ran a Champions game for a while (this was back in the Champions III era). I mostly recall the fact that everyone in the campaign had some form of Hunted, so I'd sit down to plan a session and roll the dice and end up having to work the Russian government, the Mafia, and some demons into the game somehow. And the power armor guy could never understand why it cost him Endurance to use his powers even though they were bought as part of his armor.
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Nov 2, 2015 21:28
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Double Cross is probably the best supers game I've played, though.
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Nov 2, 2015 21:29
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I really like HERO and have run some games with it. The key thing about HERO is (paraphrasing something in the book I can't find atm) that it is a toolkit for the GM to create campaign rules from, not a rulebook that you should pick up and hand to players without any guidelines. All of the horror stories sound like either the GM didn't do any/enough customization work ahead of time or there was a mismatch between the level of complexity the player wanted and the rest of the group or the GM wanted. One game I ran had the PCs as ghosts of historical figures who either deliberately or accidentally sold their soul to the devil. Now they were part of the devil's team of entities trying to tempt mankind into sin. I set up one sheet to represent the ghost when not possessing a recently dead body and one closely linked sheet for when they were possessing. I knew the players didn't want to worry about a ton of details, so I made all the sheets, set everyone to the same Speed, got rid of Endurance, made all the powers have a Constant Effect to avoid having to roll them, and set each character up with a fairly simple set of 3-4 common powers that everyone shared and 3-4 powers unique to each character. Many of these adjustments are things the book suggests in sidebars, etc. as options for a less crunchy game. Cons: -Complexity is heavily weighted towards the front with character creation. -Speed is probably too cheap -Requires lots of GM time investment to work well Pros: -Massive flexibility in terms of viable character concepts. -Massive flexibility for the GM to get just the set of things that fit the campaign they envision.
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Nov 2, 2015 21:34
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Bieeardo posted:There's a video out there of the sixth edition book stopping a goddamn bullet. I don't need that kind of rules density any more. Give me M&M or something, where the traps are obvious, or even a storygame. are you prepared to have that death on your conscience sometimes you need a rulebook so comically thick with systems and rules for every conceivable edge case that it can stop small arms fire okay
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Nov 2, 2015 21:39
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Yes. Ever see those bricks of 27 six-siders? It's all downhill from there. This is why I'm strongly leaning for never rolling more than 3 dice for anything (so it fits with the skill checks) and averaging everything above that. Or use that Standard Effect rule that is a bit below average, but easier to figure out. I'm not 100% sure if you can use that rule on your unarmed attack, but I don't think anyone would stop you if you do. unseenlibrarian posted:Also, awful, awful people who are all "But no, see, the Speed chart meaning I get two-three times more chances to act in a given scene than someone who didn't know what they were doing and just built a strong tough brick is great design and has no balance issues at all" I think I'd never play in a Hero/Champions campaign where the GM doesn't go "Okay, everyone in the whole setting has a Speed of X." Bieeardo posted:Once upon a time, I was in love with the idea of the system-- everything from gear on up is built on points, everything is ostensibly balanced point for point, it was like the Grand Unified Theory of gaming. Now? No, no. gently caress no. I'd rather use GURPS Vehicles to design armed go-karts for arbitrarily large children. There's a video out there of the sixth edition book stopping a goddamn bullet. I don't need that kind of rules density any more. Give me M&M or something, where the traps are obvious, or even a storygame. Thankfully, they seemed to have learned their lesson by having Champions Complete aka edition 6.1 have only 242 pages, with just enough example equipment and templates to rip off a few Justice League and Avengers characters. Selachian posted:I ran a Champions game for a while (this was back in the Champions III era). I mostly recall the fact that everyone in the campaign had some form of Hunted, so I'd sit down to plan a session and roll the dice and end up having to work the Russian government, the Mafia, and some demons into the game somehow. And the power armor guy could never understand why it cost him Endurance to use his powers even though they were bought as part of his armor. For power armor (aside from maybe magical or Guyver armor), you're supposed to use Endurance Reserve to reflect the built-in power source. Champion's Ironman expy Defender does that, and I'd do it the same way in just about every effects-based game. (Maybe except for BESM, where you're probably better of not having your built-in energy weapons drain energy because the "Costs energy to use" disadvantage is so not worth it as it drains that stuff like crazy.) Night10194 posted:Double Cross is probably the best supers game I've played, though. Are there any news of this core book revision? I'm pretty curious about the game, but I'm not sure if I can wait long enough. Doresh fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Nov 2, 2015 |
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Nov 2, 2015 22:10
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Ningyou posted:sometimes you need a rulebook so comically thick with systems and rules for every conceivable edge case that it can stop small arms fire okay
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Nov 2, 2015 22:15
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Halloween Jack posted:To be fair, I don't think it's possible for a universal superhero game to be balanced without GM intervention. (As opposed to one with specific, defined powers like Double Cross, or a heavily narrative game like Marvel Heroic Roleplaying, which isn't really balanced either.) I seem to remember Mutants and Masterminds at least trying to keep a power balance. Of course my personal favorite memory of the game was my terminally nerdy green-lantern/Iron Man guy needing to transport the dark and grizzled not-lobo bounty hunter after his bike exploded. He got really mad when my solution to said problem was to summon a neon green tardis.(in character, at least, out of character he thought it was hilarious) Night10194 posted:Double Cross is probably the best supers game I've played, though. I do appreciate games that let me play as a sentient concept, yes. Kurieg fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Nov 2, 2015 |
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Nov 2, 2015 22:15
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Kurieg posted:I seem to remember Mutants and Masterminds at least trying to keep a power balance. Of course my personal favorite memory of the game was my terminally nerdy green-lantern/Iron Man guy needing to transport the dark and grizzled not-lobo bounty hunter after his bike exploded. He got really mad when my solution to said problem was to summon a neon green tardis.(in character, at least, out of character he thought it was hilarious) Almost. Leaning more towards Damage and Toughness is always better than leaning towards Attack and Dodge, and official Batman-type character writeups generally suck because the writers refrain from giving them effects to reflect their training and general "I'm Batman" attitude, and they also refrain from giving them gadgets that are actually useful beyond Power Level 6-8 (in a game where the default is 10) because that would make them Gadgeteers or something. Oh, and the rules for Constructs is a bit wonky. You can easily built a dirt cheap power that lets you shut down (or mind control) any construct you come across without fail, because they don't even get to resist it. Doresh fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Nov 2, 2015 |
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Nov 2, 2015 22:32
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Kurieg posted:I seem to remember Mutants and Masterminds at least trying to keep a power balance. Of course my personal favorite memory of the game was my terminally nerdy green-lantern/Iron Man guy needing to transport the dark and grizzled not-lobo bounty hunter after his bike exploded. He got really mad when my solution to said problem was to summon a neon green tardis.(in character, at least, out of character he thought it was hilarious) Even games that want to be a superhero game where you can create any character could probably benefit from having a Speedster path, Brick path, Blaster path, etc. That, or limits on how many points can be put in a single trait (and making that more than a brief suggestion buried somewhere in the character creation chapter). Otherwise you run into problems like a player realizing during play that his speedster can't fight, because the system builds all character abilities in complete isolation from each other and he put all his points in Running Fast. The DC Universe RPG has a lot of problems, specifically with super-speed...but buying dice in Speed Force gives you all the Flash's powers as you go up in power. Whereas in M&M I believe this involves buying several different powers (Extra Attacks, Special Movement, attack and defense bonuses, etc.) before you even get into any weird Silver Age shenanigans. I think my favourite thing about Wild Talents is that it has an easy resolution method for just using any kind of ability against any other kind of ability..for example, if a villain throws a bunch of bombs into a crowd and you're trying to grab them all with super-speed, or block them by ripping up the sidewalk with super-strength, etc. you roll your dice pool to cancel out dice from his pool.
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Nov 2, 2015 22:46
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Halloween Jack posted:I think my favourite thing about Wild Talents is that it has an easy resolution method for just using any kind of ability against any other kind of ability..for example, if a villain throws a bunch of bombs into a crowd and you're trying to grab them all with super-speed, or block them by ripping up the sidewalk with super-strength, etc. you roll your dice pool to cancel out dice from his pool. The hard part of Wild Talents is trying to balance the various powers and characters you create against each other. Once you get that down, it's effortless. (I'm currently making a homebrewed space opera supplement for Wild Talents, because the system has so flexible).
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Nov 2, 2015 22:59
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To be fair, it was a pretty large Champions group, though I don't recall how large. Below two digits, let's say. I got to play with a future Aberrant writer, though!... who was pretty awful. It was an experience.
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Nov 2, 2015 23:56
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Doresh posted:
The last word from Ver Blue, sadly, was that they were taking a hiatus for health reasons, but that was a couple months ago.
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Nov 3, 2015 00:08
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Night10194 posted:Hero is the system where I worked on a PC for 4 hours and had no idea if he'd be useful. I've never actually made it into a Hero campaign, but from the times I've been told to make a PC for it, it's one of my most hated systems. I knew a guy who wrote an entire, extremely comprehensive, excruciatingly detailed random lifepath character generation system to use on top of Hero for his homebrew world. Each character took an entire 4-hour session to create. He outright refused to play games where the character generation wasn't heavily randomized. The characters that were created were honestly actually pretty loving rad, though. I was a Goblin in a human-dominated Late Roman Republic/Early Principate inspired nation who earned citizenship by saving a noblewoman from drowning and developed a fervent belief in a you-can-do-anything-if-you-try by-your-bootstraps mentality. I think he actually went on to get the setting officially published. His second favorite game was Rolemaster. ThisIsNoZaku fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Nov 3, 2015 |
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Nov 3, 2015 01:41
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Yes. Ever see those bricks of 27 six-siders? It's all downhill from there. Once you get the rhythm combats can go quick. I started playing Champions back in 1st edition. The secret to it is, it's a superhero wargame masquerading as an RPG.
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Nov 3, 2015 04:43
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 Part 2: "I imagine talking to beings like the legendary Whale Singers and riding on the back of a playful dolphin." Mysteries of the Sea Ponderings by Erin Tarn  Erin Tarn wonders what the gently caress might be in the sea. Because it's big and scary. OoooOooooOoooo.She wants to talk to a whale singer (whatever they are) and ride a dolphin but worries about the Lord of the Deep (whoever he is) and other monsters. Once, she was magically enchanted to breathe underwater! It's different from flying, or so she tells us, because the sea is dark and spooky. Also people get the bends. And she's worried about the Lord of the Deep again! She says she doesn't want to visit the Abyss, it's the one place she has no interest in. Fine! It's not like the Abyss wanted her around anyway. Pretty much everything she says here is repeated elsewhere. Erin Tarn, folks! She'll be back later on. Get back in the box, Erin.  Ocean Depth Zones  A visual primer for the Rifts review process This is a series of factoids about the sea, how far light penetrates, where the sea floor is, what a tsunami is, what percentage of the Earth is covered in salt water - the kind of factoids you'd expect to see in a children's book about the Sea. We then get details on how far people or various vehicles can dive, the various strata of the ocean, all of it is pretty factual except for comments on how far a deep-sea cyborg can descend safely. We also get the return of the Gene-Splicers because it's noted sometimes they hide out on the sea floor, because:  < (Come and get us, PCs!)Also the ocean trenches have deepened by two miles in some areas, which is an interesting note for a setting where the oceans have risen. Geologists can tell me if it's important. Also, there are ley lines on the ocean floor and across the sea, in case you're a deep sea wizard. (It'll be a thing later on.) They also tell us what guyots and atolls are. You can wikipedia if it you're curious. Magic Triangles aka Sea Triangles  aka love triangles The Bermuda Triangle... is not alone. It's always been a curious choice for Rifts to double down on the Bermuda Triangle myth, given that it was fairly well debunked by the 1970s, to say nothing of the 1990s. Wait, what's this? Oh, they don't double down on it. They sextuple down on it. (Who doesn't like a good reason to type 'sextuple'?) It turns out there are six magic triangles which are intersections of ley lines that become magical hot zones of random rifts and nonsense phenomena. Of course, the Bermuda Triangle or "Demon Sea" was already covered in Rifts World Book Two: Atlantis, but it turns out it there are also triangles near South America, Africa, Japan, Australia, and emcompassing most of the Mediterreanean. There's also a "mini-triangle" in Lake Michigan, which may be the only freshwater triangle. Oh, magic Michigan. We get the Demon Sea tables repeated from Rifts World Book Two: Atlantis, from rains of snails to lethal, murderous fogs, and devil sharks which I guess are sharks that are also devils. It's been mildly updated to encompass the new material but still makes references specifically to Atlantis. Well, you know, "professional" and "editor" are not words that collide at the Palladium office. There's also the tables for ley line storms again, also repeated from the main book. Dangers Underwater Underwater Ley Lines Ley Lines, under the sea. Rifts World Six: Underseas posted:The only thing different about sea ley lines is that the lines of mystic energy may be covered by thousands of feet of water. Oh, so that's all, then, I- no, it goes on for three more paragraphs. Rifts World Six: Underseas posted:However, most (90%) sea ley lines seem to be located in the deep oceans. Roughly 40% of the ley lines in the Atlantic Ocean poke above the waves, while less than 10% radiate from the Pacific (many are miles below the surface). I dare you to try loving interpreting that set of statistics without getting a headache. Anyway, we're told they're more influenced by the positions of the moon and planets, and that sometimes creatures are attracted to their light. We also get an additional effect of ley line storms where 1d4 "Storm Riders", whatever those are, show up. And then we get a nearly page-length table dedicated to random events of ley line storms, from electrical bolts to euphoria to null zones that wreck navigation and ESP. So much for the "only thing being different". Shimmering Water These are glowing patches of water that cause people to fall into a trance and lose track of time, distance, or direction. You also can't detect them save by sight, and can't be tracked or seen while in them. So, what are they?   "I'll menace you as soon as they write up a statblock for me!" And we get a table of their effects. It's very random, including: becoming younger or older, getting extra magic power, be transported off-course from a short distance to across the word, shrinking temporarily, going to the future or the past, go to an alien world temporarily, healing the crew, confront you with your greatest fears, gives clairovoyant visions, transports an unknown stranger into their midst, grants people the ability to sense magic... ... basically whatever random plot nonsense they could shove onto a table with no rhyme or reason behind it all, with no explanation as to what these things are. In the end of things, the sea in Rifts seems to include a poo poo-ton of randomly rolled fuckery. Dead Pools aka Deadman's Sea  "What? No! I found this just lying around!" These are areas near a ley line nexus where random rifts open, and often extradimensional travelers will come through a rift right into open sea or underwater, apparently. I guess they must be one-way so you can't just swim back...? As a result, you end up with a lot of dead people and debris around these areas. Of course, this also attracts scavengers by nature and scavengers by trade, and also things like ghosts and entities. Basically, these can serve as underwater dungeons, with stuff to find and monsters to fight and hazards to have. They also bring up the Sargasso Sea, which is apparently also a dead pool, and supposedly there's some place in the Indian Ocean where undead have built an "domain of the damned" underwater, but two sentences is all it gets, and we move on. Next: gently caress you, Cousteau: how marine biology is wrong and the sea was full of monsters all along.
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Nov 3, 2015 05:07
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Strange Matter posted:And that's why I love Wild Talents (and ORE in general). The dice roll becomes a sort of intuitive act of divination where it's extremely easy to a big handful of dice, look at them, and immediately interpret them as outcomes of your action or actions. Even just staring at your roll and searching for matches is fun all on its own. A lot of games make a huge dice pool of d6s or d10s as tedious as gently caress to resolve; ORE is not one of them! (DC Universe is, though. One of the problems I didn't go into was that The Flash has like dozens of actions, each resolved by rolling a fistful of special D6s if you're playing by the book.)
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Nov 3, 2015 05:15
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Doresh posted:PARALYSIS STIFF AS ROCK
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Nov 3, 2015 08:48
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Halloween Jack posted:A lot of games make a huge dice pool of d6s or d10s as tedious as gently caress to resolve; ORE is not one of them! The other problem with DC Universe and being a speedster is that if you took enough Speed Force manipulation to get all the Flash's standard tricks, (Vibrating through objects, whirlwinds, etc, etc.) you had a chance to die in chargen because you might have at some point run too fast and been absorbed into the speed force.
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Nov 3, 2015 14:33
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I forgot about that! What stops you from making the exact same character and rerolling until you succeed, Idunno. Character creation in that game wasn't random, so it's not like D&D, or Traveller, or WFRP where the GM is supposed to police you from making characters until you roll super-lucky stats.
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Nov 3, 2015 15:30
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Alien Rope Burn posted:
Some of these art pieces so far are pretty good, though of course largely unrelated to the text. But at least there are a few of them in the infodumpy intro section! A lot of those random tables sound like a lot of session-wrecking bullshit though. Not in the TPK sense, but 'random stranger gets rifted into your midst', the GM has to scramble to decide what kind of being and then roleplay a new NPC or run a sudden combat, and it's not like making a Rifts character is a particularly rapid process, even if you cut all the non-combat relevant skills. I mean I get that the sea is ineffable and unpredictable, but players didn't even have phones to fiddle with back when this came out so they'd just be waiting for these kinds of things to be resolved. I guess if you prep for some of these possibilities ahead of time that'd be fine but then why not just use them in regular play somehow? Palladium always loves it some random tables though, man. Also the undersea ley-lines never made total sense to me, unless the lines also pierce through the planet generally, which I guess they must since they seem to ignore elevation. Which means Rifts: Underdark must be waiting somewhere far in the wings.
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Nov 3, 2015 18:02
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 Got a hot, fresh Afterthought 18 - The One Shot Podcast episode here. We discuss the value of one shot games, plus a bunch of fan questions and digressions.
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Nov 3, 2015 18:35
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Kurieg posted:I can't remember which thread it came up in, it's probably archived now but I remember breaking down all of it's various abilities and figuring out how mathematically large it actually was when compared to the observable universe. I seem to remember it being able to move multiple light years as a move action, just via it's base speed. NGDBSS posted:Wasn't this the Mortiverse, or am I thinking of something else? I know this is from a few pages back, but guess what I found again. Kurieg posted:Well, I took our friend the Mortiverse through Wolfram Alpha.
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Nov 3, 2015 19:57
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Kurieg posted:I know this is from a few pages back, but guess what I found again. That is goddamn amazing. What leads to someone just making GBS threads that many numbers on the page and then sagely nodding while thinking that this is the right thing to do? Like, what are literally anything else in a game even meant to do with it, when it can't be interacted with in any meaningful way aside from "it murders the gently caress out of me/us/reality with no recourse"?
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Nov 3, 2015 20:12
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Moinkmaster posted:That is goddamn amazing. What leads to someone just making GBS threads that many numbers on the page and then sagely nodding while thinking that this is the right thing to do? Like, what are literally anything else in a game even meant to do with it, when it can't be interacted with in any meaningful way aside from "it murders the gently caress out of me/us/reality with no recourse"? The guy who made it did it as a joke/template experiment.
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Nov 3, 2015 20:17
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fool_of_sound posted:The guy who made it did it as a joke/template experiment. Fair enough then. Still much too far to go, but I can see that.
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Nov 3, 2015 20:31
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As I recall, it was from a third party supplement with a crap ton of templates. I believe the idea was "How many templates can I add onto a single monster? What would be the result?" It's not meant to see the light of game, it's just supposed to be an exercise of "play with the numbers." It's still nerdy and pointless, but it's not a horrible kind. Some people just like to see how far they can push things. So long as they're not actually trying to force it into a real game, I don't see the problem.
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Nov 3, 2015 20:48
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How about making a Simulacrum of this guy?theironjef posted:
Megavolt has always been a favorite of mine. He's like a loser nerd playing super villain while being surprisingly effective at it (mostly because Darkwing Duck is also kind of a loser). Alien Rope Burn posted:"The only thing different about sea ley lines is that the lines of mystic energy may be covered by thousands of feet of water." So the main gimmick about sea ley lines is that they're wet? Now that's a brilliant twist if I ever saw one. Next thing they'll say that desert ley lines are covered in sand. unseenlibrarian posted:The last word from Ver Blue, sadly, was that they were taking a hiatus for health reasons, but that was a couple months ago. Oh what the heck, I' probably just get it anyways. CISscum posted:That's great Mad Max name. If you wanna take over Bartertown, you better be like rock. The Dark Eye  Now for the big bad guys. Demons Demons - as previously covered - hail from the Netherhells aka the Seventh Sphere, which is like the Abyss in Pathfinder in that it is the endless chaotic sea surrounding the island that is the rest of Creation - or rather just Creation, as the Netherhells have been around long before, and the demons want nothing more than wreck the place down. Details about the topography of the Netherhells is a bit sparse. The only time mortals travel there is in stories of legend, and although a mage and his buddies could just go there, it's really not recommended. Demons are pretty dickish (especially on their home turf), and you're probably going to freeze to death without lots of magical support. "Netherhellish cold" is the lowest temperature category in the system, denoting anything from -150° C and below. All that's really known about the Netherhells is that the place is probably split into 12 pieces (one for each Archdemon) and that there's a Soul Mill somewhere where the souls of the damned are slowly grinded into new demons. Demon Basics Demons are pretty darn resilient when it comes to environmental hazards. If your home is the closest place in all of existance to Absolute Zero, nothing's gonna faze you. They also exude an aura that can kill off plantlife and small vermin for added creepiness. Since demons aren't native to the mortal world and its underlying rules, demons have a few advantages and a big flaw. They only take half damage from physical damage, which summoners can upgrade to full immunity (essentially allowing them to curbstomp at least 85% of the Aventurian bestiary), and they can just walk on walls and ignore friction (though the latter has no actual rule effects). But since they are not native to the world, they can't stay very long unless the summoner takes some extra effort: He can either bind the demon (spiritually attaching the demon to a willing or unwilling donor who will lose a bit og Life or Astral Points each day to keep the demon stable) or manifest him (aka making the body more compatible with the mortal world, allowing the demon to stay indefinitely but robbing it of its resistance and physics-defying stunts). Types of Demons The lowest order of demons are the Lesser Demon. They are relatively easy to summon and control and make for cannon fodder, spies and general minion stuff.The ones you really have to watch out for are the much more dangerous Horned Demons, so called because they usually have one or more horns somewhere on their body. It is said that the number of horns are a measure of their power level, but there are enough demons who are surprisingly powerful despite a low number of horns. A sub-category of the Horned Demons are the Unique Demons, one-of-a-kind demons (at least as far as anyone knows) who either act as powerful lieutenants or who are so powerful that they sometimes have their own entourage of demon underlings and a little pocket dimension to rule. These latter are also known as Free Demons. The most powerful demons are of course the Archdemons the rivals of the Twelvegods who - depending on where you read - are either just powerful demons, mere twisted mirror images of the Twelvegods, or former gods themselve who switched sides. It can get a bit confusing. There's also supposed to be the Demon Sultan at the top, but his existance is so vague he didn't even get a ridiculous statblock in 3rd edition. Most demons are said to be the followers of one (sometimes two) of the Archdemons. Other demons are considered neutral, either because that's just their style or because they are so powerful that they don't bow down to anyone. There are even demons who work for the Nameless God. Demon Summoning Demons can be summoned with two spells: INVOCATIO MINOR summons Lesser Demons only and can be cast quick enough to be kinda sorta useful in combat, while INVOCATIO MAIOR is less of a simple spell and more of the final step in a summoning ritual that can take weeks, if not months of preparations. The summoning procedure can already take a turn for the worse depending on how badly you screw up the summoning check, with hilarious effects like "you summon a more powerful (and therefore harder to control) demon" or "An Archdemon appears. The End.". Once that is successful, you still have to control the demon, which of course can result in the demon playing along to screw you over later or just straight up rampaging. Once that is done, the demon will follow the summoner's command, be it "Guard", "Search and Destroy" or any other task listed with the statblock. The reason an INVOCATIO MAIOR can take so long is because Horned Demons add pretty hefty penalties to both the summon and control check, making it hard to straight-up impossible to just casually summon the demon. What the summoner has to is track down anything that will reduce the penalties, including the demon's true name (which can already reduce the penalties by a bit even if you only have parts of the name), paraphernalia (stuff the demon likes, like frog eyes or crow feet) and of course waiting for good star constellations. It is also highly recommended to learn a few magical circles as a failsafe, namely protective circles (which the demon can't enter) and ban circles (which the demon can't leave). (Why yes, the game dedicates pages upon pages on a rules sub-system that most PCs will probably never touch because demon summoning is considered highly evil in most regions) The Demons As there are a ton of demons, I'll mostly cover the more interesting ones. It should be noted that most demons have a slight Lovecraftian vibe to them (which was pretty cool for my younger self that was unfamiliar with Lovecraft), including having quite a lot of surnames. Most of those are easy and quite descriptive, but there is the occasional "[title] of [hard to pronounce place that may or may not actually exist somewhere]". Abysmaroth, Abyssable and Abyssandur (3-horned) A trio of powerful demons who hang around in the Limbus and are unsummonable. They are mainly there to gently caress with anyone they come across (including the PCs anytime they enter the Limbus and the GM rolls two natural 20s), but they also appear to make sure the doomsday plot device that is the Demon Tree stays in good shape and continues to grow. Achorhobai (4-horned, follower of Agrimoth) A big ol' worm with pale skin, used to eat through stone and puke up the valuable minerals and ores in nicely-concentrated orbs. Amrifas the Earthshaker (9-horned, follower of Agrimoth) Information about this demon is spotty, but he can most likely cause massive earthquakes, is a unique demon and he probably also looks like a giant worm. Amrychoth (5-horned, follower of Charyptoroth) A demonic stingray used to create nasty maelstroms. Can apparently also summoned for combat duty, but he doesn't actually have a statblock listed. Whoops. Aphasmayra A unique demon with an unknown number of horns who likes appearing as a hot woman to flirt with people. She is powerful enough to have her own followers, who all seem to have a cat theme of sorts. Aphestadil (4-horned) A nasty demon who looks like a young girl with the face of an old woman, used to drain people off their motivation, causing them to become lethargic and slowly ruin their entire life. Arjunoor (8-horned, follower of Agrimoth) A big flying serpent with a ram head. Essentially a demonic wind dragon in terms of power and therefore a pretty nasty opponent. Arkhobal (7-horned, follower of Agrimoth) Continuing the trend of powerful elemental demons of Agrimoth, this one is a unmoving demon tree used to corrupt entire forests. Asqarath aka Irrhalken (4-horned, Blakharaz) The fallen gryphons, burning with an inner fire that serves as a weapon, but also makes them weak to water. Azamir (7-horned) Another "short story demon" like Aphestadil. This one won't stop peskering his victim with visions of a pair of eyes until he is either driven insane or can draw attention towards another hapless person. It's a bit like pre-camcorder Slenderman. Azzitai the Arsonist (3-horned, follower of Agrimoth) Of course does Agrimoth have a fire demon. This guy is like a big salamander with a "crown" made out of intertwined horns. Probably the closest thing to a Balrog. Balka'Bul (3-horned, Tasfarelel) A guardian of treasure who is apparently so good at his job that nobody has lived to tell of its appearance, though he is said to look like a golden Tatzelwurm. Naturally, no statblock - but you can just summon him to see how he actually looks like. Bloodstained Gold (lesser, follower of Tasfarelel) Less of a demon and more of a fiendish trap, appearing as a bag or chest full of gold. Each coin causes damage to annyone who takes it of his own free will, and the damage won't be noticed unless the person passes out or the demon disappears. Cha'Muyan (horned, follower of Aphasmayra) A demon with an unkown number of horns. She always takes the form of whatever fline creature (including sphinx) is best suited for her mission (though this doesn't actually affect her stats). The only thing telling her apart from a normal feline are faint magical symbols on her fur. Dharai (2-horned, follower of Lolgramoth) A giant blob with two horns whose massive strength makes it suitable for heavy construction work. It has very crappy Attack and Parry values, but they hit worse like a battering ram. Duglum (7-horned, Mishkara) A giant pill bug spreading disease and pestilence. Gotongi (lesser, follower of Amazeroth or Blakharaz) Winged eyeballs that can turn invisible, making them perfect spies. I think they are from Legend of Zelda. Grakvaloth (4-horned, follower of the Nameless) A black lions with wings, used to hunt down people and drive them insane in the process because they are invisible to anyone else. Gregorroth (lesser, follower of Amazeroth of Belkelel) An incorporeal, invisible demons whose only job is to ruin and instrument's sound. Seems a bit of a waste of Astral Points. Hanaestil (5-horned, follower of a unique demon called Shaz-man-Yat we'll cover later) A beauty used to drive men to ruin. Can also apparently be used as a demonic hooker o_O. Hektabeli (horned - I guess just one?, follower of Mishkara) These guys not only cause diseases, but also possess the infected to help spread it further. Heshtoth (lesser, follower of Blakharaz) A classic cannon fodder demon. They look like Nazgul without feet, slimy yellow hands and glowing red eyes. Their weapons are a whip that causes Strength drain and a sword that makes other weapons more brittle, giving it a few annoying effects to complement its mediocre stats. Heskatet Another "short story demon". This one is unsummonable and appears as either a young girl holding a bloody hourglass or an old woman holding a weight. She only makes rare appearances to sneakily spirit away seasoned mages to parts unkown, leaving only their clothes behind. She's a kind of Rapture demon. Iltapeth and Istapher (2-horned, follower of Aphestadil) Siamese lizardman twins who spend all of their time clawing and cursing at each other, mkaing them the most useless demon to summon. Isphanil (3-horned, another follower of this Shaz-man-Yat dude) Very fast, invisibile critter used to steal possessions of someone to be used in a curse. Ivash (lesser, follower of the Nameless) A fire-based combat demon. Imagine the Human Torch without flight or ranged attacks. Je-Chrizlayk-Ura (1-horned, follower of Agrimoth or Lolgramoth) Just a stronger Dharai, which is funny considering the Dharai has fewer horns. Kah-Thurak-Afai (3-horned, follower of Agrimoth) A unique demon, looking like a multi-eyed werepanther with wings. It can hide inside flowers for surprise attacks, and it becomes noticably weaker during the day (as in "you have an actual chance of killing it"). Its natural attacks are odd in that they cut the target's current Life Points in half. As the remaining Life Points are rounded down only at night, this demons used to be incapable of killing anyone at day until 4th edition added a tail attack that deals normal damage. Karakil (1-horned, follower of Lolgramoth) A winged serpent popular with evil mages. They're essentially fellbeasts. Karmanath (lesser, follower of Nagrach) Demonic wolves with white skins who are barely more competent than normal wolves and look not nearly as badass as these eight-legged, two-headed chimeras that are half Karmanath. Karmoth the Destroyer (6-horned, follower of Belhalhar) Minotaur-ish big combat demon that is totally not a Bloodthirster. As it is powerful enough to easily handle dozens of knights, Sanctified and mages and typically kills anyone in one hit, at least 4th edition summarizes his stats as essentially "Hah hah no." Laraan (5-horned, follower of Belkelel) Another of those demons to mask as a hot guy or women in order to drive someone to ruin. They like bragging with the big size of their breasts or member o_O Ma'Hay'Tam (4-horned, follower of Agrimoth and Charyptoroth) Hey, apparently those rad demon arks / giant wooden water skippers have been Horned Demons all along. Mactans (5-horned) A neutral demon and personal favorite of mine. They appear as giant spiders with 5 orange horns on their back and a beak surrounded by glowing tentacles instead of a head. They love spamming spells in the form of web, including the ever-popular EYE OF THE LIMBUS. Mactans are also weak against sea serpent teeth, for no other reason than the first Mactans to ever appear in an adventure module having been a unique, suped-up version that forced the player to look for the tooth-shaped MacGuffin. Maruk-Methai (horned, follower of the Nameless) The literal hand of the Nameless (dude loves losing body parts). He has no body, but instead possesses the summoner to help spread the worship of his god. Fighting the possessed is a bitch as he fights like on super steroids. There's also a 10% chance that he'll hang onto the body till it rots, screwing over the summoner in the process. Morcan (lesser, follower of Thargunitoth) Having no body like all demons of Thargunitoth, this critter possesses its victims to just go apeshit, or causes nightmares. Nephazz (lesser, follower of Targunitoth) Probably the most popular demon of Targnitoth. These guys can also cause nightmares, but their main function involves possessing corpses to create suped-up undead. Nirraven (9-horned, follower of Targunitoth) This most likely unique demon is said to be the mount of Targunitoth, appearing as a black bird with a red beak in its own domain. In the mortal world, he is again without a body and acts as a sort of evil Grim Reaper, taking the souls of the damned for her mistress. Necromancers typically summon him to build an army of the undead, since he can keep alive around 144 undead. The necromancer has to raise them himself, but there's a handy ritual you can get through a Targunitoth pact that covers all your mass rasing needs. When possessing a corpse (traditionally a raven, but anything goes really), Nirraven has the always fun ability of ripping out your sould on a crit. Nirraven is also probably a rival of sorts to Boron's Golgari. NIshkakat (3-horned, follower of Amazeroth) A small, impish demon who loves telling the summoner about all secrets of the world in an attempt to troll him with false knowledge. Nurumbaal (2-horned, follower of Tasfarelel) This one is just weird: A donkey with shark teeth and four facette eyes whose only job is eating the fresh heart of a ritual sacrifice to poop out gold (or demonic metal if the heart is from a spellcaster). I'd like to read a Lovecraftian tale about this. Qasaar (lesser, follower of Aphasmayra) Another demon to cause people to ruin their life, this one looking like an adorable kitty. Shaz-man-Yat (6-horned, ally/follower of Belkelel) A powerful demoness ruling over her own little domain and trolling mortals with sex appeal. She's either a follower of Belkelel or just an ally. In any case, she has her own little fellowship of demons. Shihayazad (7-horned) This gross winged reptile-rat-thing (according to the description) is one of the most powerful and dangerous beings you can summon. Its presence blacks out the sky, and it easily overpowered one of the greatest swordsman that ever lived wielding the greatest sword that ever was. It is also completely uncontrollable and will immediately start killing anyone in the vicinity upon its summoning. Naturally, Borbarad summoned this living doomsday device in his final battle. [/u]Shruuf[/u] (4-horned, follower of Belhalhar) A giant combat chicken with four tentacles instead of wings, and a fifth tentacle between its legs because why not. Tuur-Amash (7-horned, follower of Agrimoth) Another Agrimoth dude (man, he gets all the cool ones) is an earth-themed, black giant toad whose main job is the corruption of entire regions. Umdoreel (3-horned, follower of Nagrach) An ice demon that looks like a four-armed troll with antlers and a third eye on the back of its head. He's only rarely summoned all by himself, as we'll shortly see. Usuzoreel (lesser, follower of Nagrach) Twisted ice corpes summoned in packs. For some reason their stat block only consists of their Life Points and Magic Resistence. Vhatacheor (8-horned, follower of Charyptoroth) What is worse than a giant wooden water skipper that is about to eat your ship? A giant tarantula with the twisted head of a human that can walk on water which it also ignites on contact. The Wanderer between the Spheres A unique demon (at least most people think he's a demon; his first apperance predates the introduction of demons AFAIK) that is probably the most elusive one. He has no True Name (as far as anyone knows) and is pretty much unsummonable and unbanishable, and his mere appearance is usually the sign of something big happening, like the downfall of a kingdom. He might in fact be responsible for the fall of TDE's not-Atlantis. Luckily for everyone, his appearances in the mortal world are more than rare. The Wild Hunt Not really a demon in itself, but rather an Umdoreel leading dozens of Nagrach's other demons and the howling souls of the damned for some merry hunting. Now that's a good deal. Yar'Yuraam (2-horned, Lolgramoth) It's Baba Yaga's walking hut. Wut o_O ? Yash'Natamy (1-horned, follower of Nagrach) A six-legged horse made out of glass with a skorpion tail. It can shoot lightning from its eyes and freeze your with its breath. Pretty weird. Yo'Nahoh (10-horned, follower of Charyptoroth) The unique and deformed mother of all kraken. It thankfully has only ever appeared to protect Charyptoroth's followers, though it might just have been used offensively in a way that left behind no eye witnesses. Zant (lesser, follower of Belhalhar) Another classic cannon fodder demon. This one is a step up from the Hesthoth and appears as a flayed were-sabretooth-tiger on steroids. Next Time: Though Sanctified "spells" would make sense, I don't think I'll bother. Their Karma Points regenerate slowly, and their powers are largely utilitarian in nature and I feel most Sanctified are not supposed to be anything but NPCs. Just imagine if clerics were actually lame for the most part. Instead, I'd like to either end this little overview right here (or put it on hiatus till I decide to either cover the setting in more detail or talk about 5th edition if I can ever be arsed to get that one) and cleanse my palette with something different:
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Nov 3, 2015 21:29
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I'd like to see Tenra Bansho Zero since I've heard it's good but have never really looked at it,
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Nov 3, 2015 21:47
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theironjef posted:
This has gotta be one of the best intros you've done so far. The Mexican System destroyed me.
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Nov 3, 2015 22:28
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chaos rhames posted:This has gotta be one of the best intros you've done so far. The Mexican System destroyed me. Oh god, I was laughing at that. That was a dead-on perfect parody.
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Nov 3, 2015 22:37
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