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Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.


Kurieg posted:

Thank you, that gave me enough to do a proper reverse image search



It's some recycled art from the Kickstarter.

...

What the gently caress is happening with Armadillo girl's breasts?

It's best not to ask questions that one would not want to know the answers to.

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Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Covok posted:

It's best not to ask questions that one would not want to know the answers to.

I just spent 2 hours writing about deer cocks. Do you really think I'm in the best frame of mind right now?

Comrade Koba
Jul 2, 2007



Doresh posted:

It's sad they never make it the other way around and have Golarion be swarmed with Russian tanks and fighter planes.



I'd play it. :dance:

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Comrade Koba posted:



I'd play it. :dance:

I've run this kind of thing before and I can say it is Good Times.

Simian_Prime
Nov 6, 2011

When they passed out body parts in the comics today, I got Cathy's nose and Dick Tracy's private parts.

"You have Nothing to Lose But Caster Supremacy!"

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

I went from wanting to hang myself at Doctor Horse Horse, to howling with laughter at a new thread discovering the joy that is Hedrack and the Angry Inch, to wanting to hang myself at a horrible piece of furry art. I don't need this kind of strain.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


I just realized I missed the perfect opportunity to make a "Happy Nude Deer" pun. So just assume I did.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

I'm a lovely person who deserves to be happy!


Simian_Prime posted:

"You have Nothing to Lose But Caster Supremacy!"

Gosh I would love to see this, just some red guard casual strolling through Thay and blowing red wizards to bits.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


D&D Wizards make great antagonists because they're really used to reflexively being on top...so when something changes up the dynamic the schadenfreude is wonderful.

Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.


In the darkest corners of our globe...

...things the gods fear dwell without shame.

Those who venture to such places...

...do not lack fear, only sense.

He who seeks coin and fortune...

...would be better served in any other means.

But, if this is what you wish...

...then, it's time to enter...




What is this?
Back in 2010, Vincent D. Baker released Apocalypse World. It introduced the world to a dark, depressing world that was lingering on after its timed departure. It's engine, the Powered By The Apocalypse, engine was put out on an open license for anyone who wanted to use it.

Cue Sage LaTorra and Adam Koebel. Besides having names that sound fake yet are, somehow, actually their names, they both had the idea to take this engine and use it to make a generic fantasy title. While this title has been considered to not have aged well, it did do a lot to bring people to this engine and show how fun and hackable it could be. Basically, Apocalypse World's implied setting tended to turn people away (myself included) where this safe, though generic, option gave me a chance to play with the engine.

We'll be going through the title and commenting on it as it goes along. Hopefully, I won't just quit and vanish out of boredom like I did the last time I tried to do a Fatal and Friends.

Pre-Introduction
I bought this off the original website so my copy hasn't been updated since release. I don't know if a bookmarked version has been released. I bring this up as it is weird that there is a hyperlinked Table of Contents, but not PDF bookmarks. Bookmarks are easier to implement and more useful so I wonder why they didn't go that route. It's a bit odd.

Chapter 1: Introduction
We open to chapter 1 and are immediately greeted by an introduction that is meant to get us into the right mindset. Unlike Apocalypse World before it, Dungeon World is not to be written in a voice. However, it does go the route of having an implied setting. There is no section detailing their Not-Forgotten Realms world like in some fantasy books. While some would find this as lacking, Dungeon World, like Apocalypse World and other PbtA titles, encourages players to create their own setting from the prompts presented here:
  • It's a fantastic world with fantasy elements.
  • We got the "classic" D&D classes
  • We got the standard "races"
  • You are heroes
  • You travel in a group
  • Fight Monsters, get treasure
It also provides some examples of locals like a Cursed Woods.

Overall, it's hard to say if this succeeds as, well, I've been playing D&D for a while. I know what they want this game to be because I've played other games like it. If this was my first exposure, it might not be enough.

Thankfully, they delve into a brief description of every class. I mentioned earlier that it uses the "classic" classes, but some here -- though I doubt it -- might not know what those are. To be fair, there are some variants in what is considered classic. The classes in this book are:
  • Bard
  • Cleric
  • Druid
  • Fighter
  • Paladin
  • Ranger
  • Thief
  • Wizard

In addition to this, there was a Kickstarter-only Barbarian and, for a charity, there was an Immolator (a fire-bender). As those two are not in this book, they won't be discussed here. Now, some of you may have noticed something missing: the Monk. Or the mystic, depending on if you want to use the old school name. In a way, this is reinforcing their view on a fantasy world (medieval-only), but it does feel as an odd exclusion as the class was just as common as the Druid in older games and this title does, as we will see, borrow a lot from older tiles. I like martial artists, what can I say?

Moving along, the class descriptions do a better job of describing the intended world.
  • Bard: The adventuring party should be seeking to become a song to be sung about. The world has many such songs, already.
  • Cleric: The world is full of undead, beasts of all sorts, and unnatural places. Some civilizations are temple blessed and safe and everywhere else isn't. The world seems godless. There are women and men who strive out to scream the glory of their gods from the edge of their blade to the heart of this cruel world. There is religious strife as there are heathens. Are there Gods? You believe so, but it never explicitly said. Considering the genre, yes.
  • Druid: There are many religions of this world and yours worships nature. These groups compare themselves to animals. There are cities. The aforementioned clerics build statue to their gods. The nature worshipers don't have a static shape as part of their worship. In their eyes, the city dweller's religions are young and weak. They don't deny the existence of their gods, but consider them inexperienced compared to their worship of nature. The nature worshipers are open to city dwellers who renounce their ways, but look down on city dwellers who don't.
  • Fighter: There are people in those world who are tougher than tough. They live for battle in a manner that would make Son Goku proud. They live a thankless life, but do not care: battle is their love, battle is their life.
  • Paladin: There is a hell, unless it's a metaphor. Considering stuff brought up later, it's brought up here to refer to both. An order of knights have risen in the name of the gods to protect the world. Where the Cleric is one for prayer, the Paladin is one of battle. This seems to conflict with the earlier description, but, considering the conversational tone, it suggests that Paladins do not consider Clerics warriors, though Clerics consider themselves warriors. There is likely some internal, organizational strife. Considering that Paladins seem to be self-righteous warriors of virtue, this is most likely true. That said, it definitely sounds as if Paladins truly are heroes, even if a bit pompous.
  • Ranger: Like the Druid, there are others who live in the wilds of nature. There is reverence here, but it feels less religious than the Druid's life. It suggests that there are woodsman who brave the animal field wilds with their wits and knowledge.
  • Thief: Even amongst heroes, there are those who are only in it for themselves. They love coin above all and are in it for themselves. They often hear lip about their behavior from their companions, but they are invaluable as they know how to detect hidden danger as well as other skills. Basically, it suggests that heroes may be more mercenary than the term implies.
  • Wizard: While the world seems to follow physics like our's does, it doesn't. To those who know, even set rules can be broken. These powers are strong, but dangerous: one can sell their soul in pursuit of this power. But, those who have such power, can bend the world to their whim. They are hated for breaking the natural order and are even claimed to consort with demons. Some may do such things to obtain their power. While the power isn't named nor is the source defined, it is definitely dangerous and may even be derived from monsters.

These class descriptions do give me a better idea of what kind of world that Dungeon World is expected to be: a world on the brink, full of monsters and heroes, where the gods are far but their present felt, where nature holds force and people can command it, and one where a dangerous force lies in the shadows for the educated to manipulate and control (or be controlled by). In many ways, it's familiar. As a matter of fact, it's basically D&D. But, in others, it does feel darker. It reminds me of how Torchbearer described its setting. It feels like Apocalypse World's desolation and desperation, but with some more civilization: not just towns, but cities. A dangerous, violent place filled with horror, but one with safe places and majesty.

Not to be a broken record, but, despite its familiarity, it strangely feels fresh. Though, that could be me liking my own interpretation.

Moving along, we see an odd, odd thing that they did with the book: side-margin quotes. Throughout the book, there are quotes from many sources in the side-margins. Sometimes they are jokes and sometimes they are just "cool" lines. It's not like they aren't funny at time, but I usually find them distracting. If they were consistent, I'd say it better informs us of the setting, but, instead, they just serve to be an odd distraction.

In this case, the quote is useful as it gives a grim and unflattering opinion on heroes. The most telling thing is it doesn't call them Heroes, it calls them adventurers. Furthermore, it says they are sometimes helpful, but usually just fools who find themselves dead in a ditch. If everything before was what heroes think of themselves, this is what the world thinks of them and it isn't flattering. Yes, I do know it's from another work, but it's inclusion does suggest that the writers considered it to enhance the book's ability to communicate the game to the players. So, it's worth analyzing.

Dungeon World takes this moment to list out why one should play it:

  • See Characters Do Amazing Things
  • See Characters Struggle
  • To Explore The World

The first reason tells us that adventures shouldn't be mundane. They should travel to the darkest depths and the highest peaks: this is game should be cranked up to 11. In some ways, this contradicts some of the gritters elements introduced earlier, but only if you're the type who doesn't feel that "grit" and "amazing feats" go together. I feel those elements go together well, personally.

The second reasons brings us back to grit. This should not be an easy adventure nor should the party be united. They should argue, but grow into a group. They should struggle, but overcome: this isn't a meatgrinder. In other words, people shouldn't be buddy-buddy and things should be dangerous, but it isn't MonsterHearts and it isn't Dungeon Crawl Classics, so to speak (it isn't a relationship game built on messy ties and it isn't a game where character death is a part of chargen, to clarify).

The last reason gives us a more "game-able" goal. The other goals were more narrative, but this one is more of how to structure adventures. The world is big and wide and should be explored. And that's always a reason to go out. You may have other reasons, but exploration underlies it all. What this tells me is that the game should be one where the players get to feel like they are somewhere different every few sessions: places shouldn't feel the same, ya know?

The book goes through the standard, but necessary, explanation on how to read the book and how to setup for the game. It's pretty standard and not worth discussing.

The first chapter ends on a brief explanation on what's it like to play Dungeon World. This brings together a lot of what was said before on how the game should be played. It doesn't bring up anything new on that front except for bringing up this element of self-improvement. That heroes should grow in power as the game progressing and seek out such improvement. It's funny this only now gets brought up since it seems to be a very important element to the game. Perhaps it was because of the rule of 3, but it should have been listed as one of the "Why"s.

Very interestingly, while dice have been brought up before, this is the first time moves are brought up as well as what Vincent D Baker calls "The Conversation." Moves will be brought up later, but I don't know if the conversation is ever brought up again, which is a shame. The Conversation is the back-and-forth that exists between players and the GM, the one running the game. It's a very, very important concept to get down for a PbtA game to work so bringing it up so briefly is problematic.

The last paragraph of this chapter establishes that Dungeon World can be played for long campaigns. Campaigns is a loosely defined terms, but it's questionable if PbtA game can last that long for certain definitions. While DW is different from other PbtA titles, it can be sometimes hard to run long-term PbtA games. I've run very long term PbtA games and I find that they have trouble in that environment. That said, one element that might save DW in this field its encouragement of exploration. Apocalypse World was big on using a very small cast of reoccurring characters as was the PbtA title that I was running when I noticed these problems. A game focusing on exploration could keep the element of "running out of ideas" and "overusing elements" from occurring. But, who knows? I've only ran DW once and it wasn't for that long.

Anyway, that's the end of Chapter 1. See you all in Chapter 2:

Next Time: Pretty much all the fuckin' rules. Oui Vey!

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


Hc Svnt Dracones: Extended Core


I keep wanting it to be Extended Core, because Core: Extended just sounds stupid to me

Blips


Considering the formatting, it was easier to just paste the entire bit of "fiction" along with the picture

So what the gently caress is a "Blip"? This is a Blip.



Basically one-off prototypes grown in vats, entirely sapient, raised from children to adults, but because the Vectors are only opposed to genetic engineering when humans do it, made intentionally sterile so that they'll forever be lone abominations, never able to raise families. Unless they make their own Blips or something. Also there are weird rules against making too good Blips, apparently it's illegal to make a Blip that can do anything better than another Vector, so essentially all the law permits them to do is to be glittery sparkledogs.

Hc Svnt Dracones posted:

They’re also a risky venture socially; Blips bring out one of the few cases of outright racism present in Vector society. Many Vectors have various views on various other species, but it’s mitigated by a feeling of connection due to their common origins. Blips don’t share that common origin. They’re the efforts of one (probably very well-to-do) individual who decided standard reproduction wasn’t good enough for their vision of the future and created a unique piece of work instead.

So superior to humanity, no racism, no discrimination... except for the huge examples boldly trumpeted all over the loving fluff. Also bizarre judgments on the hobbies of the rich in a corporate-ruled state, when, since the corporations and advancement in them seem to be the core of society, you'd figure that everyone would look up to the hyper-rich and their hobbies and dream of being like them. Mechanically, there's no goddamn reason why Blips shouldn't simply be the way all characters are made, since they, by fictional law, have no advantages over the rest. They get to look how they want, and in the one thing that actually set some types of Vectors apart from others mechnically, reclaiming surgeries, they get to pick-and-mix what they want. The section ends on a note of the author begging people not to make Blips, to please try to fit their unique concept in under the existing "families," because if everyone's a Blip, Blips don't get to be unique and special any more!

Cogs



That's Blips sorted, so how about Cogs?

Hc Svnt Dracones posted:

when the Core Consciousness, the critical component of Cog sapience, was demonstrated and explained, they didn’t look at it with a thousand years of human contempt for machines, or with the self-assured security of mastery over their land and pride in their cities which they had built on ancient tradition and principle.

Sapient robots, basically. Honestly it sometimes feels like the author of this book isn't human themselves, because they don't seem to actually know how real humans think or act. How does humanity have "a thousand years of contempt" for machines? I mean, I can't even write anything that conveys how ridiculous this statement is better than the statement itself already does. Also wondering what "ancient traditions and principles" humans have for building their cities, urban planning is a relatively new discipline, it's not like we're using ancient Greek or Roman secrets to lay out our roads and avenues, because our requirements these days are vastly different from what theirs were. At worst we occasionally gank some "ancient" aesthetics.

Hc Svnt Dracones posted:

At the center of every Cog is a single, constantly powered unit which serves as a continual input recording and analysis device. A brain, essentially, but one that behaves as an electronic analog to the biological construct. It experiences the world through the Cog’s senses, builds bridges between experiences as a normal brain does, and is only “programmed” in the same way any brain is; by reaction to stimulus. It possesses no operating system, no built-in abilities or applications, and no backup feature. It’s simply an information sponge. It even looks vaguely brain-like, and is the inspiration behind the ASR logo. Cogs have to live, in order to be living. They attend schools, learn about their environment, trade stories and gain skills through all the traditional means, and as such they build the same sorts of social and emotional bridges Vectors do. None of it is “simulated” any more than a normal person’s laughter or sorrow might be. It’s simply a result of stimulus, compared to a lifetime of experience. The system has functioned so well, that (beyond a few tweaks to make sure things don’t decay prematurely) it has remained unchanged for nearly a thousand years. Its similarity to organic construction has also led to one of the most universal social rules of being a Cog: the idea that being a machine does not make you a tool.

So the robots have brains that are EXACTLY like human brains, except made of metal. If the explanation is that vague, and the differences non-existent, why even bother to loving explain it? Also they DO think and act different from organic creatures, because they universally have a retarded aversion to any sort of alterations to their body. I'm pretty sure it's easier to swap out parts on a machine than it is to engineer and swap out parts on a biological creature, so why they'd be averse to something that's easier and simpler for them, is baffling, except that they don't wanna be made into tooooools maaaaaaan.

Hc Svnt Dracones posted:

Cogs have hobbies and physical aspirations like anyone does, and likewise want to train their bodies to be good at what they do. When your body is mechanical, it doesn’t “train” particularly well, and when your race disdains physical modification, it’s difficult to get “in shape” as it were.

...

ASR’s solution to this problem went hand in hand with its solution to “growing,” which was also a puzzler for a while. In hindsight, most agree that the whole thing could be accomplished more elegantly using modern technology, but no race has ever reacted particularly well to being told they need to upgrade themselves. Every Cog is entitled to a chassis update at set points in their lifetime (3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 15, 18 and 20 years old).

At some point they could've just written "we didn't want to make any special rules for the Cogs. Think up your own reasons why they work like everyone else." and it would've saved everyone a whole lot of wasted words and embarrassment. I mean, they even have genders.

Hc Svnt Dracones posted:

Every Cog, regardless of registered gender, is entitled to the integration of reproductive anatomy. It isn’t gender specific, or even limited to a single binary (though you do have to pay if you want more than what your hereditary code entitles you to). Typically this anatomy is established by the birth gender and present in every chassis, but not attached to any functional reproductive system.

How does a robot even have a birth gender? Or, for that matter, functioning reproductive anatomy?

Hc Svnt Dracones posted:

Visions of a hard dividing social line forced by sheer mechanical incompatibility demanded a solution. It was remarkably easy to fix, even if it did make for a disturbing reminder of just how “artificial” Vectors were to begin with. From the human standpoint anyway. The Vectors themselves thought the whole situation was pretty clever.

Among their reproductive options is a “womb.” The womb itself went through a long series of different attempts, designs and models (some of which were more than a little troubling) before eventually arriving at something akin to an internal manufacturing center.

"If they're too weird and we can't gently caress 'em, they'll never fit in!" Exclaimed the furries, "We have to give 'em robot titties or there will be war!"

Hc Svnt Dracones posted:

Mother Cogs cannot produce organic offspring with this unit (that was attempted with the first few mechanical wombs, and the results were considered publicly unacceptable. And a little nightmarish.) Father Cogs can, however, produce organic offspring if the mother is a Vector.

The Cog can have their personality examined and extrapolated via a special ASR reproduction system, which will then translate all the relevant data into genetic structures for use in traditional impregnation.

How the gently caress do you translate a "personality" into genetic code? WHY do you write this loving trash as part of your stupid RPG? Also the robots are built to intentionally not be immortal, for no good reason except that, apparently, when you get old enough, you "live just to live" and stop being a consumer and corporations don't like that. In general they seem to have that attitude towards all their "employees," which is why they don't really offer anti-aging stuff for the biological Vectors either, which is retarded. People don't stop needing to eat, or stop enjoying entertainment, just because they get older. I mean, you could argue that very old creatures have enough accumulated experience, and enough jadedness, that they become dangerous manipulators and start needing to dig into Most Dangerous Game poo poo to get their kicks, that'd be an argument, but people don't stop consuming just because they get old. I mean, they may consume less if their biological and mental health are on the decline, but if they're just as spry as when they were 20, I doubt they'd want any less burgers, movies or drugs. Hell, their need for weird poo poo to still feel novel to them, could inspire crazy new markets and corps.

Vectors must also be dense as poo poo, because the tech for eternal life is there, the fluff states so, but some of them still sign up for contracts that include literal termination points shortly after 100 years of age, for no good loving reason. At least the robots get it a bit better, their brains are programmed to upload them to Robot Heaven(tm)* once they get old enough.

*Actual heavenliness of Robot Heaven not guaranteed, as no one's ever actually checked up on the system except for two guys who don't talk about what they see, so the entire place could just have crashed or it could be loving Purgatory or some such poo poo. Whatever, you're a sucker, and this system is retarded.

Cogs apparently also eat, and while the text declares that many of them have "neutral" chasses that don't clearly resemble any gender, all the ones shown so far are clearly either masculine or have robot titties.

Hc Svnt Dracones posted:

Cogs are capable of eating food if they possess a mouth, but it’s purely for show. Chemically metabolizing the meal takes more energy than it’s worth when the rest of the body isn’t tuned to make use of it. Instead, Cogs are powered by an internal reaction system fueled by common elements in the air.

I'll just leave everyone to boggle over how retarded this quote is.

Hc Svnt Dracones posted:

Cogs don’t “breathe,” but they do make use of air for a variety of other critical systems. It assists with cooling and circulation as well as element harvesting for their power source. Cogs can do without air for about 10 minutes before experiencing power loss and systems failures.

These are the shittiest robots ever, they can't even survive in loving vacuum or underwater.

Hc Svnt Dracones posted:

Debt is common enough in the Sol system, but centuries of social practice and careful social rules have put the burden of responsibility onto corptowns to ensure that prices of day to day life items are not so high as to forever drown their populace. There are, essentially, enough other options available that anyone who began the old human company practice of digging a debt trench at the company store would soon be without customers. Not to say it hasn’t happened, but on a surprising number of occasions, other corps have swooped in to dig people back out again, occasionally possessing the company in the process. Which, conveniently, gave them a population of new, thankful customers. Megacorps arrange these “benevolent takeovers” on a regular basis, sometimes against their own subsidiaries. It’s led to the volatile, occasionally violent hotzones Vectors are familiar with, but also kept many crippling business practices at bay.

Because gee, corporations would never think to make a cartel! Instead they engage in completely above-board competition with each other at all times, preventing harmful monopolies and hurfle durfle gurfle burf. Man, I'd sure love to trade the hellish horrors of government regulation for something as minor as "occasionally violent hotzones" as corporations have shootouts! Jesus Christ.

At least the frame creation rules give you a few new options. They don't just let you make metal versions of normal Vectors, but actually let you make stuff like that Squidcat from a page or two back, having six legs, levitating instead of having legs at all, etc. Sadly, for no clear reasons, all Cogs are limited to human torsos, symmetrical constructions, a single head, etc. Basically any weirdness you have will mostly just be from the legs down(the tentacle forms are an exception, since they also replace your arms with tentacles).


Sadly being a Cog won't protect you from the worst of Vector blights: Looking loving retarded


I figure these guys are being levitated against their will, but the guy in the back just seems to be chilling out more than panicking or flailing.

Next time, Cogsunes! Exo-Nymphs! Whatever other stupid poo poo I find along the way!

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


I don't understand how a furry game could be so pass-aggy against the The Wuzzles. C'monnn.

It makes me think of the great therian v otherkin debate as to whether or not you can have the soul of a creature that wasn't "real", like a dragon. Where a therian has an animal soul, you see, but otherkin actually started from people who thought they had elven souls / ancestry / whatever-the-gently caress, and the two subcultures are nowadays just lumped under "otherkin" these days even though they don't have that much overlap. The mindset goes "I have a wolf soul which is awesome, and you have a dragon soul, which I guess it's more awesome, but at least I have a real animal and BTW you are a liar." It's hilarious. Well. I find it hilarious, anyway.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


I also think that dragonkin, demonkin and angelkin look down on fictionkin (aka "I'm actually Sonic!").


drat you, alchemypunk Hitler :argh: !

Simian_Prime posted:

"You have Nothing to Lose But Caster Supremacy!"

But alas, it was not meant to be. Soon, the revolution would eat its children thanks to "Essentials Economy" and the 5 Year Plan...

Lord Licorice posted:

If I can't play this dude, then there's literally no reason for this RPG to exist. :colbert:



I'd actually prefer something like this with robot arms and built-in lazor beams:


Anyone interested in a transhuman sci-fi RPG that is just about landsharks?

Kurieg posted:

Anyways, back at the meeting of "Four legged animals that are mostly brown except when they're Zebras", horses said that Mankind are touched by the divine, so they will work along side them and teach them the wisdom of the wild. The Deer/Gazelle/Okapi/Elk/Reindeer/Caribou spirits (uggghhhh) all joined together and said "hey these assholes hunt us, gently caress this poo poo." and ran away.

DNA is such a human concept. They are all brothers and sisters in spirit.

And holy crap. Two types of centaurs, but nothing about Greek mythology? Mooses that are actually elks? Not even an attempt at shoehorning in Huns and/or Mongols because of them being Proud Warrior Riders? I think even I can do better than this, and my furrydom doesn't go beyond catgirls and landsharks.

PurpleXVI posted:

Hc Svnt Dracones: Extended Core

So what I take from this (unless my brain turned off halfway through to preserve SAN points) is that rainbow-colored dogdudes with four dicks are a discrimminated crime against nature and have to be born sterile, but rainbow-colored dogbots with a metal brain and four tentacle dicks that can actually make you pregnant are ok o_O ?

Doresh fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Jan 2, 2016

oriongates
Mar 14, 2013

Validate Me!




Also, how can you be a super-future-post-libertarian-singularity...but apparently there are laws in place that say "you can't genetically engineer new species that are in any way more capable than existing genetically engineered species."

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


Doresh posted:

So what I take from this (unless my brain turned off halfway through to preserve SAN points) is that rainbow-colored dogdudes with four dicks are a discrimminated crime against nature and have to be born sterile, but rainbow-colored dogbots with a metal brain and four tentacle dicks that can actually make you pregnant are ok o_O ?

This is precisely what the Space Furry Libertarian Singularity is about, yes. These are also presented as totally reasonable opinions.

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



oriongates posted:

Also, how can you be a super-future-post-libertarian-singularity...but apparently there are laws in place that say "you can't genetically engineer new species that are in any way more capable than existing genetically engineered species."
Because this isn't that one Ironclaw spin-off that actually thought through its premise. On Asimov's scale of science fiction it falls firmly on the Adventure side; all of this future poo poo exists to be props usable when it's convenient or to push the story along.

There's nothing inherently wrong or bad about this; many classic stories rely on good (or at least tolerable) Adventure Science Fiction (Reign of Steel, for example, is all about setting up these plot points but relies on the idea that robots would rebel against us and win). The problem arises when the authors use it as a shortcut as they are doing here, when the sci-fi is used as cheap wallpaper or a lazily applied single coat of paint. We're lacking the suspension of disbelief necessary to enjoy the product because this product is not something we're interested in and it falls apart upon scrutiny but hey, at least it inspires us to be creative and question it or think of something better.

Because God knows if I ran this I'd turn it into a Deus Ex: HR-style powder keg about to detonate from its own golden age and hubris because they're starting to follow the path of their own creators.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


The thing is none of these props are *interesting*. Like, they have AIs, custom-made organisms, etc. Do they use these to examine their own idea of sapience or do these shape their society? Not at all. By the book's own words, they're not allowed to exceed the 'normal' furries. All they really do is make the society look more pathetic and transparently false.

Which I suppose could be a jumping off point ("Oh sure, you know what they SAY about themselves, but see how they treat the Blips!") but the book can't see it at all. They're props that exist solely to have sparkledogs and the most groan-worthy parts of EDI from Mass Effect 3.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


PurpleXVI posted:

Mother Cogs cannot produce organic offspring with this unit (that was attempted with the first few mechanical wombs, and the results were considered publicly unacceptable. And a little nightmarish.) Father Cogs can, however, produce organic offspring if the mother is a Vector.

The Cog can have their personality examined and extrapolated via a special ASR reproduction system, which will then translate all the relevant data into genetic structures for use in traditional impregnation.

If you can do it for sperm, you can do it for eggs. And you've already got artificial wombs because that's how vectors came to be in the first loving place.

If a bio-dad knocks up a toastercat does anything happen? Or can robowifes only make robabies with a dadbot? Cause if so this entire segment is bizarrely discriminatory against women, both flesh and steel ones.

Night10194 posted:

The thing is none of these props are *interesting*. Like, they have AIs, custom-made organisms, etc. Do they use these to examine their own idea of sapience or do these shape their society? Not at all. By the book's own words, they're not allowed to exceed the 'normal' furries. All they really do is make the society look more pathetic and transparently false.
Yeah, the point is that there was no thought to how the society would organically grow to this point. They thought up an end point "We want furries, and also sparkledogs and robots, but everyone has to be equal because we don't actually want to balance any of this." and forced their society to meet spec.

quote:

Which I suppose could be a jumping off point ("Oh sure, you know what they SAY about themselves, but see how they treat the Blips!") but the book can't see it at all. They're props that exist solely to have sparkledogs and the most groan-worthy parts of EDI from Mass Effect 3.

I'm pretty sure you can't even get that, since odds are some other robot character already had those life affirming arguments with someone else. It also means you can't get the genuinely hilarious parts of EDI's character growth because Cogs aren't also a spaceship.

TombsGrave
Feb 15, 2008



"You can create any kind of transhuman adventure furry you like! Asterisk some restrictions apply. Asterisk it's mostly restrictions."

If they wanted to justify the zero-effort robots, they could try and pass them off as bioroids a la Blade Runner or Armitage. If you wanna be generous, you could claim they're based on the robots in Saga, who have metal skin tones and TVs for heads (with royalty having color TVs and peasants having black and white) but which are otherwise human-like and biological, including the ability to have children and get sick and die of dysentery.

Speaking of Saga, though: can you make Ghus in Hc Svnt Dracones?

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


Kurieg posted:

If a bio-dad knocks up a toastercat does anything happen? Or can robowifes only make robabies with a dadbot? Cause if so this entire segment is bizarrely discriminatory against women, both flesh and steel ones.

Robabies only with a dadbot, for some bizarre reason. Yeah, I have a hard time putting my finger on exactly WHY, but it did strike me as weirdly misogynistic.

Kurieg posted:

I'm pretty sure you can't even get that, since odds are some other robot character already had those life affirming arguments with someone else. It also means you can't get the genuinely hilarious parts of EDI's character growth because Cogs aren't also a spaceship.

Interestingly enough, they DO make semi-intelligent designer organisms, "Bio Probes," and they do acknowledge that the difference between a Blip, who's ostensibly free, and a Bio Probe, which is a piece of owned equipment, is extremely vague, but then they just drop it there. No Bio Probe freedom activists or anything.

Also yes, all of this could be sort of interesting if we had an unreliable narrator, especially considering the fact from the original HSD book that human voices supposedly hypnotize Vectors, and you could have a weird Vector facade society run by behind-the-scenes humans and crazy stuff like that. But nothing in the writing ever indicates that it's anything but Word of God.

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



Honestly bioroids are a thing that interests me a great deal because it blurs the line between nature and machine like never before but I'm having a real hard time wrapping my head around Cog biology. Chalk it up to sleep issues.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


TombsGrave posted:

Speaking of Saga, though: can you make Ghus in Hc Svnt Dracones?



Sure, but why would you want to? I mean maybe if somebody had a gun to your head to play the drat thing, I guess...?

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Wait if human voices hypnotize vectors and humans are super evil, why did humans die out? Shouldn't the vectors be living in a slave state designed to cater to a human aristocracy even after all the events that wiped out most of the other humans?

TombsGrave
Feb 15, 2008



Alien Rope Burn posted:

Sure, but why would you want to? I mean maybe if somebody had a gun to your head to play the drat thing, I guess...?

In some grim timeline where somehow Hc Svnt Dracones was the best option compared to basically anything, you'd have to make the best of a bad situation somehow. Though, yeah, asking someone to subject themselves to think about HSD more than necessary was cruel of me.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


Hostile V posted:

Honestly bioroids are a thing that interests me a great deal because it blurs the line between nature and machine like never before but I'm having a real hard time wrapping my head around Cog biology. Chalk it up to sleep issues.

Okay, to summarize. They don't need to eat, because they extract power from air. Literally, from breathable air. They need to drink, because they need water for coolant. They need air to breathe, because apparently they have nothing resembling batteries and when deprived of their power source(air) for more than eight or ten minutes, they power down and "die." They're in constant wireless connection to Robot Heaven(tm) and slowly become part of it as they become older, or just when they die. They gain no advantages from this. Robot Dads can visit the Robot Creators and get his personality translated into Robot Semen that they can use to impregnate biological women. Or they can just give the Robot Dick to Robot Moms. In the former case the kid is biological, in the latter, a robot.

Edit: I don't know who/what Ghus is, but he looks tiny and armed. In my review of the core book I both made a tiny character and also proved that thanks to the rules being poo poo, it could still effectively chokeslam most of the setting's big bads if it won initiative.

LatwPIAT
Jun 6, 2011

Do I need a title?

PurpleXVI posted:

Here are all the animals they left out of the core. In total, they seem to be: Bears, Sharks, Dolphins, Rats, Mice, Squirrels, Rabbits, Bats, Horses, Cows, Deer, Goats, Gazelles, Seals, Raccoons, Mongeese and Hyenas. And probably a few variants of those here and there. As usual, we get some weird drat design decisions all over the place, usually tied in no apparent way to what the actual animals are like or what human stereotypes of them are.

It's a design decision that seems to be borne entirely from the idea that the fursonas need to have their own mechanical niches, even when that makes no sense. Like the medic-lizards and techie-raccoons from the core book. Together with the D&D-isms that occur from time to time, I suspect it has to do with a very game-balance-over-fluff mindset.

PurpleXVI posted:

So there's a bit on rats and mice. The rats are dull, the mice were created by the rats for the purpose of slave labour, and the remainder of Vector society didn't do anything because if they liberated them, suddenly they'd have to take care of them for a while. Where's all the profit-motivated corporate charity and benevolence? All of the "logical" behavior that somehow ties profit to doing good and noble things for everyone?

My question is, why? Why would people-in-rat-fursuits want to make people-in-mice-fursuits to be their slaves?

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Well gently caress. Why do you do this to me Purple

PurpleXVI posted:

They don't need to eat, because they extract power from air. Literally, from breathable air.
No, this isn't going to work, at all. It would take more energy to process that then they would actually get out.. They'd be better off with batteries or, you know, chemical furnaces working off of the food they eat but they've already burned that bridge.

quote:

They need to drink, because they need water for coolant.
Hahahaha what? Most liquid coolant systems are closed loops, you don't actually want the liquid evaporating because, you know, if it does then you suddenly go from "100% coolant efficiency" to "0%" and oh look you're losing solder. Also these robots have a lot of surface area they can use for simple heat venting in the same way people do.

quote:

They need air to breathe, because apparently they have nothing resembling batteries and when deprived of their power source(air) for more than eight or ten minutes, they power down and "die."
Even *humans* have power storage, what the gently caress do you think Fat is? This whole sequence of events seems to be that the creators of the robots were needlessly cruel and didn't want to create a sentient race that could survive in a vaccuum because that would make them feel inferior.

That or the writers though it would be unbalanced.

quote:

They're in constant wireless connection to Robot Heaven(tm) and slowly become part of it as they become older, or just when they die. They gain no advantages from this.
Please Stop Sinning While I'm Singing!

quote:

Robot Dads can visit the Robot Creators and get his personality translated into Robot Semen that they can use to impregnate biological women. Or they can just give the Robot Dick to Robot Moms. In the former case the kid is biological, in the latter, a robot.

Again, you have artificial wombs, where the gently caress did sparkledog up there come from if you don't. This is a solved problem, the only reason they didn't want it to happen is because they thought it was squicky.

If the writers wanted all these dumb arbitrary things to be true they really shouldn't have put so much work into their perfect post scarcity society that contradicts everything they're saying.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


Just so you know I'm not making this poo poo up:

Hc Svnt Dracones posted:

Cogs are powered by an internal reaction system fueled by common elements in the air. They do, however, need to drink water regularly to facilitate the process, assist with cooling, and provide additional lubrication and cleansing to internal systems. Cogs drink nearly as much water weight as a Vector of equivalent size would consume in food and water combined.

Hc Svnt Dracones posted:

Cogs don’t “breathe,” but they do make use of air for a variety of other critical systems. It assists with cooling and circulation as well as element harvesting for their power source. Cogs can do without air for about 10 minutes before experiencing power loss and systems failures.

Hc Svnt Dracones posted:

Crush depth for a Cog is only 96 feet, at which point the external pressure on their systems will render them unconscious unless they’re wearing something protective.

Someone who knows more about diving and submarining than me can probably answer this better, but... isn't 96 feet a relatively shallow depth to be inconvenienced by pressure?

PurpleXVI fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jan 2, 2016

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


By pressure, yes. Most of the problems humans suffer with deep dives are oxygen toxicity and Nitrogen Narcosis because the higher pressures actually cause our blood to store more oxygen than we're capable of processing. Theoretically if they really do power themselves by air they might have problems with their fuel mixture running too rich but that's not the problem they're saying the robots have.

And that's still stupid.


e: Seriously the more I think about their stupid robot sex the less sense it makes. They don't grow like normal organisms do, that's explicitly stated as such. And apparently all they do is have "personality sex" so at best what the females do is smash their two personalities together and create a temporary body that's going to need to be replaced as soon as possible. And since they can apparently turn Personalities into functioning DNA why the hell can't they do it the other way around? Or just do it for the women and use an external artifical womb.

This game has an issue with overexplaining the small problems no one really cares about, and not explaining the plot holes big enough to pilot Phobos through with a fusion candle.

Kurieg fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Jan 2, 2016

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Night10194 posted:

All they really do is make the society look more pathetic and transparently false.
Speaking of transparently false I like how they present company towns as not drowning the residents in inescapable debt, completely unlike what happens whenever one turns up unregulated in reality.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Zereth posted:

Speaking of transparently false I like how they present company towns as not drowning the residents in inescapable debt, completely unlike what happens whenever one turns up unregulated in reality.

Maybe it's time to reread the Cedar Point work thread and just imagine they're all terrible furries, and therefore deserve it.

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Terrible Opinions posted:

Maybe it's time to reread the Cedar Point work thread and just imagine they're all terrible furries, and therefore deserve it.
The what thread?

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Cedar Point

An amusement park sets itself up in such a way that it's workers need to live on site in company town conditions. It proceeds to horribly mistreat its staff of teenagers and migrant works. Includes Orwellian attempts by park management to find out who is makin teh thread and fire all their friends.

Asimo
Sep 23, 2007




Kurieg posted:

e: Seriously the more I think about their stupid robot sex the less sense it makes.
It makes perfect sense.

It's just that the explanation is "someone wants to gently caress robots really bad but not be intellectually challenged by the idea." :ssh: Kinda goes back to my earlier snide remark about most of the character options being designed around various niche fetishes. Looking at Blips there it's pretty clearly a "I want to be a tigerwolfdragon" thing straight out of Deviantart, for example.

Lord Licorice
Dec 18, 2013

drr drr drr...

Kurieg posted:

This game has an issue with overexplaining the small problems no one really cares about, and not explaining the plot holes big enough to pilot Phobos through with a fusion candle.

Ding ding ding! I've been trying to pin down the overarching problem with these books, and you've nailed it. The author focuses entirely on the wrong topics, providing exhaustively detailed answers to questions no one was even asking. In doing so, he simply raises more questions and digs himself deeper into the Hole of Confusion™.

I've seen this (and done this) before, but the trick is to recognize when certain levels of detail are just flat-out derailing, and either need to be rewritten for intentional vagueness, or just cut entirely. It's especially important to recognize when you're overproducing when writing a basis for others' creations, e.g. a tabletop RPG, where future GMs and players are expected and encouraged to fill in these kinds of blanks with their own ideas. "Too much fluff" is absolutely a thing, and these books are one long case-in-point.

PurpleXVI posted:

Hc Svnt Dracones posted:

registered gender

I. You. But. They. Buh.

If gender is a social construct, it follows that a robot-person would gravitate naturally toward established gender roles in their society. They would adjust their behaviors, appearances, and so forth to suit the roles they feel are "right" for them as they grow and experience the world. That's a cool idea, and definitely worth exploring in a setting like this.

In our society, we assume the gender matches the biological sex as the default; however, with goddamn robo-furries there is no biological sex at birth, so why is gender being registered at birth? The author is attempting to appear progressive while simultaneously enforcing gender roles. There's no reason whatsoever for the Cogs to do that, which is just another sterling example of the author overexplaining poo poo no one was asking him to explain in the first place. That single throwaway line about "registered gender" fucks up the whole thing! Less is more! Jesus Christ!

PurpleXVI posted:

Hc Svnt Dracones posted:

Mother Cogs cannot produce organic offspring with this unit (that was attempted with the first few mechanical wombs, and the results were considered publicly unacceptable. And a little nightmarish.)

So you're going to give us, for example, a huge wall-o'-text that boils down to "synthetic brains are organic brains but metal", but only offer vague hints about something that could have actually been interesting? I hate you, Hv Svnt Dracones.

Lord Licorice fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jan 2, 2016

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


PurpleXVI posted:

Okay, to summarize. They don't need to eat, because they extract power from air. Literally, from breathable air. They need to drink, because they need water for coolant. They need air to breathe, because apparently they have nothing resembling batteries and when deprived of their power source(air) for more than eight or ten minutes, they power down and "die." They're in constant wireless connection to Robot Heaven(tm) and slowly become part of it as they become older, or just when they die. They gain no advantages from this. Robot Dads can visit the Robot Creators and get his personality translated into Robot Semen that they can use to impregnate biological women. Or they can just give the Robot Dick to Robot Moms. In the former case the kid is biological, in the latter, a robot.

So they basically wanted for robot furries to be a purely cosmetic choice, and therefore had to come up with stupid nonsense to justify it instead of going "Just roll with it". That's a good way to spend your development time.

Doresh fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Jan 2, 2016

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


You'd think in a transhumanist setting you'd want to explore the social and psychological implications of genetics and form becoming genuinely malleable. People being able to make 'designer' organisms or AI entities would only be the tip of that iceburg, and it'd be cool to write a game about changeable shells and what it does to the sense of self and community. I know Eclipse Phase already does that some, but I'd actually prefer it without some weird cthulu motherfuckers lurking in the background for once. Just a game that focuses on 'This is what technology has allowed, and this is what it has done.'

Communist Zombie
Nov 1, 2011


Asimo posted:

my earlier snide remark about most of the character options being designed around various niche fetishes. Looking at Blips there it's pretty clearly a "I want to be a tigerwolfdragon" thing straight out of Deviantart, for example.

If its supposed to be about acting out your various fetishes then why did they explicitly ban robot wombs? Isnt pregnancy, or rather male pregnancy, kinda big? And letting men give birth would provide an opportunity (that in a better game would use) to explore the limits and divisions between genders and what happens if you blur them.

Another thought if Blips are supposed to be discriminated against would that make 'sparkledog' a slur in universe?

Fake edit: Cogs having an entitlement to reproductive anatomy would be an interesting take on reproductive and morphological rights, if it wasnt just an excuse to make sure your robot men and women have cocks and pussies. :geno:

Communist Zombie fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Jan 2, 2016

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



Communist Zombie posted:

Fake edit: Cogs having an entitlement to reproductive anatomy would be an interesting take on reproductive and morphological rights, if it wasnt just an excuse to make sure your robot men and women have cocks and pussies. :geno:
And yet ironically due to these design choices they (logically) shouldn't have anuses for butt stuff because they run on water and air.

"Logically".

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Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Hostile V posted:

And yet ironically due to these design choices they (logically) shouldn't have anuses for butt stuff because they run on water and air.

"Logically".

Powered by what in the air though? Air is 80% Inert gas. The rest is oxygen and some trace compounds like Methane and Hydrogen. Seriously if they're able to power themselves entirely through air and water that's a way more interesting development than robot heaven.

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