Fullerton Police Officers Found Not Guilty in Beating Death of Kelly Thomas

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Fullerton Police Officers Found Not Guilty in Beating Death of Kelly Thomas

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redscare: Aug 14, 2003

This case has been a local news staple since it happened back in 2011. For those unfamiliar, Kelly Thomas was a mentally-ill homeless man that was beaten to death by several cops. A guilty verdict was widely expected because of this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fs4iZtvYZg

...but it's all gone Rodney King

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-live-verdict-in-kelly-thomas-police-murder-case-20140113,0,5661959.story

quote:

Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

An Orange County jury Monday found two former Fullerton police officers accused of killing a schizophrenic homeless man, Kelly Thomas, not guilty.

Manuel Ramos and Jay Cicinelli were charged with striking Kelly Thomas with a baton and a stun gun in a beating that left him comatose. He died five days later.

[Updated at 4:25 p.m.: Ramos, Cicinelli and their families were swiftly escorted out of the courtroom.

Ron Thomas, Kelly Thomas' father, said he was stunned by the verdict, saying he'd never seen such a miscarriage of justice.

Thomas also suggested that federal authorities should look into the case.

Ramos' attorney, John Barnett, told reporters: "These peace officers were doing their jobs...they did what they were trained to do."

Orange County Dist. Atty. Tony Rackauckas said prosecutors would not pursue charges against a third Fullerton officer accused in the Thomas case. That officer's trial was pending.

"I don't intend to proceed with another trial when the two officers here were acquitted," he told reporters.

The jury took less than a full day of deliberation to reach the not-guilty verdicts.

Rackauckas told jurors the former officers had abused their authority on the July evening when they confronted Thomas.

Ramos was facing second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter charges, and Cicinelli was charged with involuntary manslaughter and excessive use of force under the color of authority.

The incident, captured on surveillance tape, was shown repeatedly during the trial, but each side drew different conclusions as to what it showed.

Prosecutors said the video captured a real-time homicide with the officers beating a homeless man, even as he called out for help. Defense attorneys said it showed two policeman trying to restrain a violent suspect who possessed abnormal strength.

The coroner's office determined that Thomas died of brain damage from lack of oxygen caused by chest compression and other injuries sustained during his struggle with police.

Defense attorneys suggested that Thomas' death could be tied to a diseased heart damaged by previous drug use.

There's going to be a civic wrongful death case, but I doubt the DoJ will want to get involved.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 02:44

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 23:08

the chip: Mar 10, 2002; Fun Shoe

If you want to murder someone in Orange County, just make sure you are wearing a badge. You will get away with it.

There's something truly sick about this place.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 02:50

BottledBodhisvata: Jul 26, 2013; by Lowtax

the chip posted:

If you want to murder someone in America, just make sure you are wearing a badge. You will get away with it.

There's something truly sick about this place.

Fixed that for you.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 02:51

Dafte: Jul 21, 2001; Techno. Logical. Pimp.

"See these fists? They are gonna gently caress you up"

*kills person*

*Not guilty*

Are any of us surprised?

# ? Jan 14, 2014 03:05

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

I'm generally fairly generous toward not guilty verdicts, even those involving cops. But not guilty across the board is just shocking given everything I've seen, even in OC.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 03:26

AdmiralViscen: Nov 2, 2011

This makes me sick to my stomach.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 04:43

StabbinHobo: Oct 18, 2002; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

I grew up on stileproject videos and I couldn't watch when he started crying for his dad.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 04:52

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

I haven't followed this case that closely, so maybe there's something I'm missing, but I'm not sure how to react to cases like these. It's one thing when a prosecutor declines to pursue charges or the police department tries to cover up what happened. That's an understandable problem where someone is clearly at fault.

But when a jury declines to convict cops (or even non-cops) in these cases, even with overwhelming evidence (like a video), I don't know, it just astounds me and I can't even figure out how to do something about it.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 04:56

JohnClark: Mar 24, 2005; Well that's less than ideal

Are any interviews available with the jurors that explain their thinking? I honestly can't imagine viewing that tape and reading the coroner's report and thinking, "Yep, looks good to me".

# ? Jan 14, 2014 04:57

ReidRansom: Oct 25, 2004

StabbinHobo posted:

I grew up on stileproject videos and I couldn't watch when he started crying for his dad.

Yeah that's about where I stopped. I'm not the squeamish type, but I'd rather not watch some tortureporn snuff flick.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 04:58

Dr Pepper: Feb 4, 2012; Don't like it? well...

JohnClark posted:

Are any interviews available with the jurors that explain their thinking? I honestly can't imagine viewing that tape and reading the coroner's report and thinking, "Yep, looks good to me".

"There's no was a police officer could do this. The evidence must be wrong."

# ? Jan 14, 2014 05:01

go for a stroll: Sep 10, 2003; you'll never make it out alive; Pillbug

JohnClark posted:

Are any interviews available with the jurors that explain their thinking? I honestly can't imagine viewing that tape and reading the coroner's report and thinking, "Yep, looks good to me".

Just a guess, but I imagine jury tampering is hopelessly easy for cops.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 05:08

Zeno-25: Dec 5, 2009; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

This really shouldn't be such a surprise, cops can get way with anything in America. Especially if it's against someone of little status in an area with a good amount of affluence. You're pretty much rolling the dice anytime you don't do exactly what you're told in direct contact with the police when it gets to the level of force possibly getting involved. Interact with the police assuming each one of them could be a violent sociopath.

I watched the video and this guy just looked like he lost it and kept fighting the police as a survival mechanism, and the police just kept pressing him down harder in order to subdue him. If anything this travesty just shows how the police in the US should be better trained to deal with mentally unstable individuals.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 05:15

Berk Berkly: Apr 9, 2009; by zen death robot

I don't understand.

If you are tasering, beating, and yelling at a someone in tremendous pain and discombobulation, what exactly are the chances they are going to even be able to understand let alone obey commands like:

RELAX *WHACK* RELAX *TASER* STAY STILL *TASER* GET ON YOUR STOMACH *THWACK*

At the end the dude is obviously completely running on adrenaline and whatever is left of his poor brain stump telling him to get away from the danger-pain at all costs to save its life.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 05:22

BottledBodhisvata: Jul 26, 2013; by Lowtax

Berk Berkly posted:

I don't understand.

If you are tasering, beating, and yelling at a someone in tremendous pain and discombobulation, what exactly are the chances they are going to even be able to understand let alone obey commands like:

RELAX *WHACK* RELAX *TASER* STAY STILL *TASER* GET ON YOUR STOMACH *THWACK*

At the end the dude is obviously completely running on adrenaline and whatever is left of his poor brain stump telling him to get away from the danger-pain at all costs to save its life.

It is to my knowledge, although this may be a rumor, that--at least with military forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I think it is done by police too--they will shout conflicting commands in order to make you jerk up or move when you should lay still and they have probable cause to open fire.

I know somebody who was ambushed by police who thought he was a murder suspect, and they had two cops, one shouting for him to lay still and the other telling him to stand up. He was exonerated when they found the actual guy, but he seemed pretty certain that they were keen to gun him down if given the opportunity.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 05:27

DrBouvenstein: Feb 28, 2007; I think I'm a doctor, but that doesn't make me a doctor. This fancy avatar does.

Jesus Christ, this line in the news article:

quote:

Prosecutors said the video captured a real-time homicide with the officers beating a homeless man, even as he called out for help. Defense attorneys said it showed two policeman trying to restrain a violent suspect who possessed abnormal strength.

They literally used "retard strength" to get two cops off for murder. :suicide:

# ? Jan 14, 2014 05:29

AVeryLargeRadish: Aug 19, 2011; I LITERALLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO NOT BE A WEIRD SEXUAL CREEP ABOUT PREPUBESCENT ANIME GIRLS, READ ALL ABOUT IT HERE!!!

Twelve local citizens made this decision, not the cops, not the state, your own fellow citizens. They watched that video, they watched it many times and made their decision: Not Guilty.

Watch that video, hear him cry out in pain. Not Guilty.

Watch that video, hear him cry out for his parents. Not Guilty.

Watch that video, hear him cry out for mercy. Not Guilty.

Some days I wonder if there is any way to save this country, today I just want to burn it all down.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 06:43

Axetrain: Sep 14, 2007

Wow that's pretty sickening, I mean how can you watch that and just say not guilty. I know Orange County is a vile cesspool of the worst humanity has to offer but poo poo, if you have even a shred of empathy you would put these guys in line for the guillotine.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 07:07

MixMasterMalaria: Jul 26, 2007

It looks like the FBI is going to investigate so maybe we'll see if there was witness tampering or juror intimidation. Do any SA legal minds know what the officers in question could be charged with that would avoid double jeopardy?

quote:

The FBI said Monday that it would examine evidence in the Kelly Thomas police beating death trial to "see if further investigation is warranted."
The bureau launched an investigation in 2011 to determine whether Thomas' civil rights were violated when he was beaten by officers after being stopped for questioning at a Fullerton transit depot.
Thomas, a 37-year-old schizophrenic homeless man who was a fixture in downtown Fullerton, died five days after the July 5 confrontation.
"With the conclusion of the state court trial, investigators will examine the evidence and testimony to determine whether further investigation is warranted at the federal level," FBI spokeswoman Laura Eimiller in Los Angeles said in a statement.
She declined to comment further.
Reactions ranged from rage to measured acceptance Monday after an Orange County jury found that two former Fullerton Police Department officers were not guilty of beating Thomas to death.
On Monday night, about 100 demonstrators gathered at the transit depot where the beating had taken place. Some held candles or waved signs that said "Justice for Kelly Thomas." Some in the crowd wept quietly. Among those in attendance were Thomas' parents, Ron and Cathy.
Demonstrators later moved to the Fullerton police station.
The three-week trial ended Monday with jurors rejecting second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter charges against Manuel Ramos and involuntary manslaughter and excessive force charges against Jay Cicinelli.
Both former police officers lowered their heads, and Cicinelli's attorney, Mark Schwartz, pounded his fist on the table before hugging his client. Thomas' family wept softly.
Cicinelli was ecstatic, Schwartz said.
�He was relieved, after 2 1/2 years of having this over your head,� Schwartz said. �We�re just going to have to take a deep breath and enjoy the moment.�
The jury reached its verdict after a day of deliberation.
The centerpiece of the prosecution's case was a grainy black-and-white surveillance tape that captured the violent altercation. During closing arguments, Dist. Atty. Tony Rackauckas, who prosecuted the case, simply played the audio portion of the tape in which Thomas can be heard yelling for help.
While Rackauckas said the tape gave jurors a real-time sense of a homicide taking place, defense attorneys said the video showed that Thomas was the aggressor, fighting the officers so fiercely that they had to call for backup several times.
Defense attorneys said their clients should not be convicted for simply doing their jobs. Ramos' attorney, John Barnett, told reporters: "These peace officers were doing their jobs.... They did what they were trained to do."

It was a rare case for law-and-order Orange County, and the district attorney had staked his reputation on the outcome.
"I would do the same thing again," Rackauckas said. "I think it's a matter that a jury had to see."

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-kelly-thomas-verdict-fbi-to-examine-trial-evidence-20140113,0,4049891.story#ixzz2qLrk4jxh

MixMasterMalaria fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Jan 14, 2014

# ? Jan 14, 2014 07:30

VH4Ever: Oct 1, 2005; by sebmojo

AVeryLargeRadish posted:

Twelve local citizens made this decision, not the cops, not the state, your own fellow citizens. They watched that video, they watched it many times and made their decision: Not Guilty.

Watch that video, hear him cry out in pain. Not Guilty.

Watch that video, hear him cry out for his parents. Not Guilty.

Watch that video, hear him cry out for mercy. Not Guilty.

Some days I wonder if there is any way to save this country, today I just want to burn it all down.

That.....that right there, is why I know we're beyond hope in this country. It sounds a bit, dramatic, perhaps but with citizens THINKING this way? 1984 is here, it really is.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 07:31

thefncrow: Mar 14, 2001

MixMasterMalaria posted:

It looks like the FBI is going to investigate so maybe we'll see if there was witness tampering or juror intimidation. Do any SA legal minds know what the officers in question could be charged with that would avoid double jeopardy?

Anything the feds can charge them with. Double jeopardy only applies to charges from the same sovereign. Federal and state governments are different entities, so the state court's finding of not guilty does not limit the feds abilities to pursue charges.

What the feds can charge is limited, but that's not because of the finding of not guilty here.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 07:39

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

MixMasterMalaria posted:

It looks like the FBI is going to investigate so maybe we'll see if there was witness tampering or juror intimidation. Do any SA legal minds know what the officers in question could be charged with that would avoid double jeopardy?

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-kelly-thomas-verdict-fbi-to-examine-trial-evidence-20140113,0,4049891.story#ixzz2qLrk4jxh

Civil rights violation is what they use in these cases. You can get a pretty heavy sentence there. This would be heard in the Federal Court in Santa Ana, which gets you the same crap OC jury pool.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 07:48

BattleMaster: Aug 14, 2000

BottledBodhisvata posted:

It is to my knowledge, although this may be a rumor, that--at least with military forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I think it is done by police too--they will shout conflicting commands in order to make you jerk up or move when you should lay still and they have probable cause to open fire.

I know somebody who was ambushed by police who thought he was a murder suspect, and they had two cops, one shouting for him to lay still and the other telling him to stand up. He was exonerated when they found the actual guy, but he seemed pretty certain that they were keen to gun him down if given the opportunity.

Is this a deliberate tactic or is it an accident due to there being multiple people being present who think that they're the one in charge of giving orders to the suspect?

Not that it excuses them when someone gets harmed or killed because of it, as that shouldn't happen regardless, but there's definitely a difference. If it's deliberate there needs to be some serious action taken against police departments who do it by the government complete with firings and criminal charges. If it's accidental then the police need to drastically revise their training and policies for chain of custody of suspects.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 09:55

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

DrBouvenstein posted:

They literally used "retard strength" to get two cops off for murder.

Dammit I came here to post this exact thing.

Every day I see poo poo like this and kiss the grubby southern hemisphere dirt I live on.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 09:57

Lord Harbor: Apr 17, 2005; Bruce Campbell: You've stolen my heart, but you'll never take my freedom; Nap Ghost

LA Times posted:

"These peace officers were doing their jobs.... They did what they were trained to do."

Sadly, this is probably completely true.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 12:54

Eggplant Squire: Aug 14, 2003

Yeah I REALLY want to hear the jury interviewed on this one. I'm not surprised since even when these sorts of cases go to trial juries are absurdly lenient on cops, I assume due to years of propaganda about how they are heroes and that their jobs are "one of the deadliest in the world" when they are not but in this case the evidence is hilariously against them. I'm curious if this is authoritarian worship, some sort of homeless people don't have rights so why ruin the lives of people over one getting itself killed, or if there is some quirk of the justice system.

Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Jan 14, 2014

# ? Jan 14, 2014 13:49

pigdog: Apr 23, 2004; by Smythe

I can accept the Trayvon Martin ruling, but what in the hell is this poo poo America? :psypop:

# ? Jan 14, 2014 14:24

The Insect Court: Nov 22, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Xandu posted:

I haven't followed this case that closely, so maybe there's something I'm missing, but I'm not sure how to react to cases like these. It's one thing when a prosecutor declines to pursue charges or the police department tries to cover up what happened. That's an understandable problem where someone is clearly at fault.

But when a jury declines to convict cops (or even non-cops) in these cases, even with overwhelming evidence (like a video), I don't know, it just astounds me and I can't even figure out how to do something about it.

Orange County is basically a chunk of Alabama transplanted to Southern California. It's the stronghold of what remains of the Republican Party in California, as well as for neo-Nazi gangs. That this verdict was handed down by a jury in Orange County makes it easier to understand, sadly.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 14:30

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

pigdog posted:

I can accept the Trayvon Martin ruling, but what in the hell is this poo poo America?

America says: mentally disabled people are literally black.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 14:30

Shade2142: Oct 10, 2012; Rollin'

The Insect Court posted:

Orange County is basically a chunk of Alabama transplanted to Southern California. It's the stronghold of what remains of the Republican Party in California, as well as for neo-Nazi gangs. That this verdict was handed down by a jury in Orange County makes it easier to understand, sadly.

This wasn't a poor black from LA county/long beach. It was a white guy getting beat by a latino/hispanic cop. And it's not like homeless people are some foreign creatures. There are plenty living here even if the police tell them to gently caress off from panhandling on the street corners. Most people are working or middle class, not a rich yuppie empire like SA makes it out to be. All I can think of is that the jury is made up of 12 people just like my 50 yr old alcoholic neighbor who is bitter and angry at everything.

e; I can see a lawyer getting Ramos off on 2nd degree murder; but the unnecessary force charge? drat..

Shade2142 fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Jan 14, 2014

# ? Jan 14, 2014 16:07

BottledBodhisvata: Jul 26, 2013; by Lowtax

Shade2142 posted:

This wasn't a poor black from LA county/long beach. It was a white guy getting beat by a latino/hispanic cop. And it's not like homeless people are some foreign creatures. There are plenty living here even if the police tell them to gently caress off from panhandling on the street corners. Most people are working or middle class, not a rich yuppie empire like SA makes it out to be. All I can think of is that the jury is made up of 12 people just like my 50 yr old alcoholic neighbor who is bitter and angry at everything.

Maybe the cops just had a really good lawyer.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 16:09

happyhippy: Feb 21, 2005; Playing games, watching movies, owning goons. 'sup; Pillbug

MixMasterMalaria posted:

It looks like the FBI is going to investigate so maybe we'll see if there was witness tampering or juror intimidation.

The US jury selection system needs to be changed.
It should be pure random people, one from every style or walk from life, as diverse as possible.
But no, they try to get them to be 12 friendly or favor their side as much as possible.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 16:23

Elephanthead: Sep 11, 2008; Toilet Rascal

Smart people are capable of avoiding jury duty.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 16:41

Thundercracker: Jun 25, 2004; Proudly serving the Ruinous Powers since as a veteran of the long war.; College Slice

BottledBodhisvata posted:

Maybe the cops just had a really good lawyer.

Yeah, I don't know why no one is thinking this. There are terible defense attorneys, and extremely competent defense attorneys

I mean someone got Phil Spector and Casey Anthony off. Maybe the cops just lucked onto a young Pheonix Wright.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 16:43

avisgoth: May 7, 2003; "Are you OK, or are you just fat?"

MixMasterMalaria posted:

It looks like the FBI is going to investigate so maybe we'll see if there was witness tampering or juror intimidation. Do any SA legal minds know what the officers in question could be charged with that would avoid double jeopardy?

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-kelly-thomas-verdict-fbi-to-examine-trial-evidence-20140113,0,4049891.story#ixzz2qLrk4jxh

From the article:

Cicinelli was ecstatic, Schwartz said.
�He was relieved, after 2 1/2 years of having this over your head,� Schwartz said. �We�re just going to have to take a deep breath and enjoy the moment.�

While I'm upset at the overall outcome here for some reason that quote makes me completely enraged.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 16:52

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Alright, so if I am homeless person or a black dude in U.S. there is what, a 20% chance that if someone brutally murders me they go free?

# ? Jan 14, 2014 17:05

Eggplant Squire: Aug 14, 2003

Homeless I'd say it's way higher than 20%.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 17:09

rope kid: Feb 3, 2001; Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Now Orange County can join in San Diego's proud tradition of letting police walk for killing unarmed civilians.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 17:12

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

He was unkempt, so it's OK that he was killed. <---the mindset of millions of Americans

# ? Jan 14, 2014 17:23

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 23:08

FuriousxGeorge: Aug 8, 2007; We've been the best team all year.

They're just finding out.

Wow. Sometimes cops really do deserve some leniency for when poo poo gets bad because someone is resisting, but he loving announces he is going to gently caress him up and then does so. If you can't get a conviction with that there is basically no evidence that would have done it.

# ? Jan 14, 2014 17:46

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Fullerton Police Officers Found Not Guilty in Beating Death of Kelly Thomas

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