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Xguard86 posted:I'm not qualified to answer but I think if you post some more details people at that level might be able to give advice. Like how many people are reporting to you and what kind of budget or scale are you looking at with the new job? Do you have P/L type responsibilities which might mean you've got performance bonuses to consider. A lot going on. Maybe the most informative way to go about it is posting the job description summary. The organization describes itself as an investment company focussing on impactful altruistic projects. The *position* is primarily responsible for sourcing deals, evaluating investments, performing due diligence, structuring transactions and working with the organization to help it succeed. Responsibilities include: • Develop & evolve strategy for investment area across Latin America including financial capital, human capital and intellectual capital (policy and advocacy) • Source deals via personal networking and marketing and evaluate opportunities against fit with *Organization* strategy • Lead due diligence and drive execution of funding • Add value to funded organizations directly and by using other *Organization* resources as appropriate • Provide support to and oversight of funded organizations (e.g. board roles) • Contribute to intellectual leadership around Transparency and Accountability in Latin America and globally. • Work on agreed *Organization* policy and advocacy priorities within the region • Work with the transparency Team globally to advance the initiative’s strategy and mission • Represent *Organization* in a manner that is consistent with our mission • Perform other responsibilities, as necessary I'd be working by myself, probably for at least the first year, so no direct reports. I haven't discussed any numbers with them yet, so I can't speculate about the budget. Edit: formatting. burnsep fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 18, 2014 19:06
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Kalenn Istarion posted:Odds are they have your current pay then, so it may have some downward pressure if you're moving to a job with a band near your current one. If you're moving to a new field or something and have new education / skills added to the mix then you have a better case for it not to be a factor. This is exactly right. Unfortunately, internal moves that are roughly in the same world as what you were doing won't see big pay jumps. In my experience you have to make a pretty dramatic internal move (new location with different cost of living, for example) to reboot the salary. Otherwise the old one will inform the new one. They might have a policy that states that your new salary should be no more than x% higher than your old one. Still, negotiate away, but be realistic. I've started to write out my experiences with this scenario many times but I'm hesitant to go into too much specific detail. I was offered an exciting internal promotion that everyone in multiple layers of management was excited for me to do and explicitly told me they had no plan B and I was really their only choice. Then I was given an insulting salary that was actually a pay-cut when factoring the loss of overtime wages. I actually used the term "slap in the face" when they told it to me. I played hardball but I was told at the end of a couple of weeks of discussion that it was firm and that it was "take it or leave it." That was actually how they phrased it me even though they were proactively offering something that I didn't pursue and were supposedly trying to woo me to do to. (I mean, I appreciated the candor but still!!)
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Mar 19, 2014 07:41
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corkskroo posted:I've started to write out my experiences with this scenario many times but I'm hesitant to go into too much specific detail. I was offered an exciting internal promotion that everyone in multiple layers of management was excited for me to do and explicitly told me they had no plan B and I was really their only choice. Then I was given an insulting salary that was actually a pay-cut when factoring the loss of overtime wages. I actually used the term "slap in the face" when they told it to me. I played hardball but I was told at the end of a couple of weeks of discussion that it was firm and that it was "take it or leave it." That was actually how they phrased it me even though they were proactively offering something that I didn't pursue and were supposedly trying to woo me to do to. (I mean, I appreciated the candor but still!!) Hopefully you "left it."
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Mar 19, 2014 07:47
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Kobayashi posted:Hopefully you "left it." Another reason I've been hesitant to tell my story is that it flies in the face of all the advice in this thread. It's literally the one-in-a-million situation where you don't do the advisable thing and it works out. There was something else that I wanted to do and I knew that doing this low-pay thing could get me there. So I took it, killed it, got a nice adjustment a year later that put me up closer to where I originally wanted to be, and then half a year after that made the real thing I wanted to happen happen and am now in a completely different world with a better position, new location, and much, much higher salary. But the stars need to align and you need to be able to see a long term plan from years off and hustle towards it every day. I almost started a thread about it but it would be too specific and frankly too humble-braggy. Let's just say that IF you know that you're going for something more long term and IF you know how to use the short term counterintuitive move to get there then it CAN pay off. But it takes a lot of work and a little luck, so unless you're confident that you can pull it off you need to think seriously about whether or not to try.
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Mar 19, 2014 08:02
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Yeah, ultimately the person who will know the pay-offs for a job best is the person applying for it. You could quantify the long-term benefits in a present value calc but there is a soft point where you need to just make a call. I'm currently considering a career change myself and in most cases from where I am it's a similar path - a short-term haircut (potentially significant) in trade for longer-term significant gains. E: I are gud at gramr
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Mar 19, 2014 09:40
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The only thing I feel is critical to keep in mind with a deferred payoff in employment is to have a plan for what you will do if the payoff doesn't occur. An employer will always try and convince you to take a deferred payoff, e.g. "after 6 months we'll adjust your salary upwards if we like your work!" In my experience an offer like this is worth less than the paper it's written on. You should always have a Plan B. For the above, your Plan B might be: "Ok, I'll accept. But if they don't make good with the adjustment I'm going to get in touch with Other Employer and jump ship post haste." It's also crucial to use all available information you have to gauge the likelihood of the payoff becoming worthwhile. When I recently renegotiated my salary, my employer tried to lean on a nascent profit sharing plan as being a compensation factor I should consider when evaluating my compensation compared to the industry. I frankly retorted that this profit sharing plan had been discussed with no actual sharing for the past year. I had no evidence that it was going to materialize any time soon, and that it was quite frankly not worth anything as far as comparative compensation. Turns out I was right and the profit sharing plan has still not materialized 6 months later and was a total red herring of a discussion. I'm still with this employer because I stuck to my guns regarding my market value and they understood I was serious and made good with real compensation.
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Mar 19, 2014 14:37
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To add to that, if you're in a meeting with the boss and he verbally states they'll look into your salary 6 months down the line, after the meeting send him an email asking him to confirm the review, and if possible try to book the review and agree on a rough figure. Getting it agreed early on will make it much harder for your boss to back out. If they won't even commit to anything on paper, that's a good sign they're stalling.
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Mar 19, 2014 14:42
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that's the appropriate barrage of caveats that need to follow my story. It worked out for me. To some extent I made it happen but anywhere along the way someone could have decided to deny me something and I would have been stuck. In fact I did ruffle some feathers along the way but at a certain point I decided to go for broke and once I got the ear of the people I needed there was no looking back. The key is if you decide to take a short term unconventional offer for a longer term plan don't let any bitterness get to you. If you do take an effective pay cut (as I did) and other moves are contingent on how things go, coming in with a chip on your shoulder about the pay cut that you essentially agreed to is going to hurt no one but yourself. I let it go and kicked butt regardless. I'm sure that that that helped with all the things that happened after as much as any maneuvering, networking, or self-promotion I did. The lesson I've learned is to be honest (to a point) and go with my gut always. Now whenever my gut is telling me "contact this person" or "focus on this project" I do it. I developed that sense over time, however, and I didn't find BFC until I was way far into this process. BFC is a good place to bounce ideas around but no one here can know your specific situation as well as you do. I wonder sometimes if I'd asked BFC about the salary thing and everyone had said "I hope you're going to tell them to shove it" where I'd be now. Because in my (very specific) case the entire chain of events led to my current opportunity, which rocks. Sometimes you do need to step out into the unknown and try something weird. But, yeah, it can be tricky knowing what to do. For me the key is forward momentum. I've taken good offers, bad offers, and great offers, but in every case I could tell you clearly what new ground I was breaking in my own career development. If nothing else, that's worth something.
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Mar 19, 2014 22:05
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An update: I've been given an offer letter with a salary of $45k-- $10k lower than my requested amount. As they were a bit hesitant on letting me know upfront the range of pay, how should I approach/counter their offer for more money?
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Mar 20, 2014 21:10
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They're 20% lower than what you want and 11% lower than the minimum you'd accept. Given how large that gap is and how they played hardball about giving out a number first, you almost certainly aren't going to negotiate them up meaningfully. Send them a brief but polite email declining their offer, imo.
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Mar 20, 2014 21:16
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Otto Skorzeny posted:They're 20% lower than what you want and 11% lower than the minimum you'd accept. Given how large that gap is how they played hardball about giving out a number first, you almost certainly aren't going to negotiate them up meaningfully. Send them a brief but polite email declining their offer, imo. Don't decline the offer. Come back at $55 and see what they do. Don't just give up, who cares how big the gap is. Be honest about what you think the responsibilities of the job dictate for pay. They will either say 45 or come up some. If not then take it or walk away. E:I am bad at typing spwrozek fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 21:33
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spwrozek posted:Don't decline the offer. Come back at $55 and see what they do. Don't just give up who cares how big the gap is. Be honest about what you think the responsibilities of the job dictate for pay. They will either day 45 or come up some. If not the take it or walk away. I agree. Give it a shot. What's the worst that can happen? But run the numbers. Will they come back with 50? What will you do if they counter 48? Would that be attractive? Last couple of times I got an offer I sort of had my dream number, my realistic number and my rock bottom number in mind and sort of thought out how I'd react to each. You've gotten an initial offer that's below your rock bottom. If you can get it up to your lowest number would it be worth it? Are there other benefits that you can negotiate for that would make it worth it? Only you know the answer to those questions. Just a reminder, you originally said this: "My salary expectation is $55k". $50k is my sweet spot and anything lower I'd really have to think about." So if they can get to, say, 48k is that close enough to your sweet spot that it's worth it? Up to you. corkskroo fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 22:16
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Echoing comments above, don't tell them to go away, and don't just take it. Doesn't hurt to go back with your last number and tell them they need to come up for you to consider it. Be factual, but don't be afraid to comment on how far off your mark they are. If they don't move then it tells you something about the company. Ultimately you need to decide what you're comfortable with but this sounds like it's below your minimum.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:44
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Thank you all for your help. Here's my response so far--not sure how to close out the email, or if it's even necessary. "Hello HR Person, Thank you for the offer and I'm very excited to join the team at _____. I do want to point out the salary--based on my previous Inside Sales experience and previous communications with ______, my salary expectation for this role is $55k." Edit: Really want to play the pity card of "I need to save for a wedding and with the office moving across the bay so I need to make sure my expenses are covered" Korovyev fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 22:51
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Here is the response I gave at my last job negotiation (I work at this place now): Thank you for extending an offer for a position with ____. I have outlined some things that I would like considered for the offer and a few items that I need better clarified. Clarifications: Relocation: I am not clear on how this is handled. Is it a lump sum amount for $7500, reporting on actual expenses for tax purposes, or actual reimbursement of expenses up to a $7500 limit? If it is the latter It would be helpful to see what are qualified expenses and what are not. Bonus Structure: We talked about this on the phone but I didn't see it detailed anywhere. I want to confirm what bonus pool I would fall in with this position. Review/Raises: When are reviews held and how are they tied to raises? Yearly from my start date or some other criteria? What is the pay ceiling of my hiring grade? Advancement: Within the group that you manage how are the levels structured (engineer II, III, IV, etc) and what is the job advance available in the next 3 years? Items for Consideration: Signing Bonus: I would like to see a signing bonus based on the bonus pool I would fall in for the 2011 calender year. PTO: I would like to start with 5 days (40 hours) of PTO. PTO Accrual Schedule: I would like my start date to be the beginning of my 4th year of service (3 years post graduate + 2 internships). Although contingent on a background screening I was looking at a start date around November 7th. Thank you again for your interest in me. To discuss the above please give me a call at ____. So that might help out. I wouldn't go for pity BTW.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:01
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Korovyev posted:Thank you all for your help. They don't give a poo poo about your wedding. You can be factual about hurdles you are facing and they need to pay you to overcome, and you can endeavour to make them feel bad about missing / ignoring your initial target. Here's an alternative: Dear XXX, Thank you for the offer. I'm pleased that you'd like me to come work at [company], although I was surprised and disappointed to see the proposed salary offer of $45,000, well below what I indicated I would consider a fair salary for this position. Given my need to relocate and [some other factual things that make the position cost you money / more difficult], I would need to see an improved offer before I would be able to accept. A few other questions I had include: [Some of the stuff spwrozek mentioned are good things to ask] I look forward to the opportunity to work at [company] and to a counter-proposal which addresses the points I've outlined above. Regards, [You] ---------------- That's worded more strongly than your note in light of them being below your floor. If they don't hit 50 you've been very clear about walking away. If you are NOT going to walk in the event they don't increase, then consider softening some of the wording.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:27
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Do not go for pity. Your personal details are of no concern to them unless they are extraordinary (they aren't). Go for confidence and "I'm worth it." But start with a little about how excited you are about the opportunity and that you're looking forward to moving this conversation along so that you can work together.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:29
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Kalenn Istarion posted:They don't give a poo poo about your wedding. You can be factual about hurdles you are facing and they need to pay you to overcome, and you can endeavour to make them feel bad about missing / ignoring your initial target. The only angle I'd maybe bring in about the personal issues is that if they offer a salary that eases up more of your burdens then you'll be able to dive right into your work and give them more in return. But this could sound like you're threatening to withhold hard work if you don't get what you want. I'd be hesitant to get into any of this personal stuff. They probably don't want to hear it. They want to know they spent a little more to get the best in the field, not to pay for your wedding.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:33
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What's the deal with the expenses/office moving? Could you try for a gas card or something? Is that the issue?
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Mar 20, 2014 23:35
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corkskroo posted:What's the deal with the expenses/office moving? Could you try for a gas card or something? Is that the issue? They're moving offices from downtown SF to the East Bay. The office will still be near public transit(BART), however only companies within SF city limits are obligated to help with the cost of commuting. Currently they do compensate a set amount for public transit costs however they didn't include a list of perks and so there's no guarantee on the amount or if they will compensate my commuting costs. Your prompt is fantastic and I'll be softening it up a tad while still maintaining a stern tone and asking for more detail on PTO, compensation, and other things. I appreciate the reminder that 50 is my floor, and if my wonderful startup idea doesn't pan out, then I'll have to start lower on the salary totem than before. I'm an absolute badass and shouldn't be undervalued. 
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Mar 21, 2014 00:38
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Success! I've got a $50k salary with $5k of bonus possible at the end of the year, public transit and gym reimbursement, and 4 weeks of PTO. I feel much more confident about switching career paths now that I have such a solid footing. Thank you everyone for your help!
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Mar 22, 2014 01:43
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Sounds like a good outcome - 4 weeks of PTO is pretty nice! Enjoy the new job.
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Mar 22, 2014 02:09
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Korovyev posted:Success! I've got a $50k salary with $5k of bonus possible at the end of the year, public transit and gym reimbursement, and 4 weeks of PTO. I feel much more confident about switching career paths now that I have such a solid footing. Awesome! Care to share how it went down so others can see which tactics worked for you?
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Mar 22, 2014 02:33
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corkskroo posted:Awesome! Care to share how it went down so others can see which tactics worked for you? Korovyev posted:Hello ________: To which they replied with the benefits package and asking for an amount. Korovyev posted:HR Person, They then got back to me with a new offer letter and fantastic words of praise from the hiring manager: Hiring Manager posted:"Korovyev, we do hope this offer is more in line with what you are looking for. I think you are a fantastic candidate and we would love to have you on board. Please know that the $50K salary +$5K bonus is our best available offer for this position. The next few emails were full of congratulations, happy to have me on board, and inviting me to a company dinner. I also got the A-OK that my Etsy shop wasn't a conflict of interest.
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Mar 22, 2014 18:49
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Others here have more experience than I do but that seems like the picture-perfect negotiation. It's iron-clad proof that you don't need to be the Michael Jordan of your industry to use the ideas we're talking about and make them work for you. Good job!
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Mar 22, 2014 19:04
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Yep, good job sticking to your guns. I like your edits to my prompt. Your base hit your minimum and with the bonus your hitting your outside goalpost so sounds like a great outcome. 
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Mar 22, 2014 21:08
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Just to hammer home the importance of negotiating, this dude wrote an email and IT MADE HIM FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS PER YEAR. Not only that but the employer won out too imo because they got an employee who feels they value him and is probably more likely to feel invested in them. Everyone wins!
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Mar 22, 2014 21:51
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corkskroo posted:Just to hammer home the importance of negotiating, this dude wrote an email and IT MADE HIM FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS PER YEAR. Not only that but the employer won out too imo because they got an employee who feels they value him and is probably more likely to feel invested in them. Everyone wins! You pretty much don't lose anything by asking and trying to negotiate a better deal especially if you have specialized skills the company really wants.
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Mar 22, 2014 22:12
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corkskroo posted:Just to hammer home the importance of negotiating, this dude wrote an email and IT MADE HIM FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS PER YEAR. Not only that but the employer won out too imo because they got an employee who feels they value him and is probably more likely to feel invested in them. Everyone wins! To put it another way, he got an 11% raise just by asking. How often do you get an 11% raise after you started?
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Mar 22, 2014 23:27
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Also keep in mind that recruiting and hiring is an expensive process for the employer. If they find a candidate that they like and want to hire, it is very expensive for them to let that hire slip away over reasonable salary negotiations and what is ultimately a small amount of money to the business.
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Mar 23, 2014 00:01
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Guinness posted:Also keep in mind that recruiting and hiring is an expensive process for the employer. If they find a candidate that they like and want to hire, it is very expensive for them to let that hire slip away over reasonable salary negotiations and what is ultimately a small amount of money to the business. Even more if they bring you in for a something like a out of state on-site interview and feel that you are a good match for the position.
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Mar 23, 2014 01:53
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corkskroo posted:Just to hammer home the importance of negotiating, this dude wrote an email and IT MADE HIM FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS PER YEAR. Not only that but the employer won out too imo because they got an employee who feels they value him and is probably more likely to feel invested in them. Everyone wins! Is it standard to negotiate like that via email? I'd feel weird not doing it over the phone, but I guess it makes sense to keep everything in writing.
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Mar 23, 2014 02:50
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Xandu posted:Is it standard to negotiate like that via email? I'd feel weird not doing it over the phone, but I guess it makes sense to keep everything in writing. It would depend on your relationship with the person you're negotiating with. A phone conversation can be better in some ways as it allows you to read tone of voice, but there will be some pressure to provide immediate responses which reduces your ability to consider your position. The advantage of email is that it is more natural for there to be breaks for each party to consider things. Personally, I'd keep the factual / specific negotiations to email and then make a call to accept (with a follow-up mail) once the terms are right.
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Mar 23, 2014 04:42
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So a company I really like just quoted me, first offer, 5k above my target, which they don't know and 30k above my current pay, something they also didn't really know. The standard is that you should always negotiate but well I like the offer and feel like it's fair. Am I under valuing myself tremendously or is it possible to just get a good quote?
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Mar 24, 2014 18:29
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There's really no harm in asking for a little more. Worst case they stay firm on their original offer and you accept it. Unless you're a total dickhole about it they aren't going to rescind the offer. Remember that your starting salary basically anchors your compensation for your entire stay at that company. All your future raises and bonuses will be based on your starting salary. Negotiating another 5k or whatever up front when it's easy will have lasting benefits and will be compounded over time.
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Mar 24, 2014 18:37
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Did you just read what happened? Ask for more and see what they say. Post more details if you want specific advice. Make sure you are good with all the other benefits as well
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Mar 24, 2014 18:37
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If you dont want to ask for cash, ask for more vacation time or something of the sort.
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Mar 24, 2014 18:45
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With all this negotiating, I figure, you're in a less favorable situation when dealing with an internal job transition considering they know how much I already make?
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Mar 24, 2014 19:03
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spwrozek posted:Did you just read what happened? Ask for more and see what they say. Post more details if you want specific advice. Make sure you are good with all the other benefits as well I did but for me they're already above my range so I don't have a good number to counter with since I don't really know what's reasonable. I'll have to go over the offer in detail and see.
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Mar 24, 2014 19:13
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Hand of the King posted:With all this negotiating, I figure, you're in a less favorable situation when dealing with an internal job transition considering they know how much I already make? Where I work if you go up a grade it is 10% that's it. A lateral is 4% max.
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Mar 24, 2014 19:14
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