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Dodge Charms
May 30, 2013


Jazerus posted:

Yes, but you get more than 50 levels of generics - Sandworm Queen Heart, the arena, the Last Hope alchemist, etc. all give you generics
You might notice that I listed 48 points worth of stuff to buy.

Assume you get all the stuff on your list, how many total points do you end up with?


Jowy posted:

Yeah, it's a fair enough point. I still like AM quite a bit, but it's more a thing about wanting to take the time to remind everyone that Stone Wall is the poo poo.
Stone Wall is awesome, yeah.

Now I want to play an Earth/Sand Wyrm Mage adventurer...

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A Magical Lamp
Aug 16, 2010


Speaking of combat training sucking up generics, if I know I'm going to pick up Legacy of the Naloren how heavy should I go into weapon mastery? Obviously I need to make sure I get that far to begin with but I don't want to just throw away points that could have gone in AM/fungus.

Benly
Aug 2, 2011

20% of the time, it works every time.


Jowy posted:

Yeah, it's a fair enough point. I still like AM quite a bit, but it's more a thing about wanting to take the time to remind everyone that Stone Wall is the poo poo.

It's fantastic, but getting it isn't guaranteed by a long shot, so you can't really build on the assumption that you'll get it, much less in a timely manner. Antimagic is guaranteed available as soon as you can handle the trial.

Luceid
Jan 20, 2005

Buy some freaking medicine.


Fungah! posted:

It used to, but DarkGod removed it. It was nuts while it lasted though, I think someone cleared the ambush in like two casts.

I nearly got it down to one cast, but the boss survived the initial hurricane of garbage with like 100 hp left.

ToxicFrog
Apr 26, 2008



Dodge Charms posted:

You might notice that I listed 48 points worth of stuff to buy.

Assume you get all the stuff on your list, how many total points do you end up with?

Let's see...

You start with 2. You get 1 per level, excepting levels that are multiples of 5, and 3 at level 50. So that's 44.

Sandworm Heart is +1, Arena and Brotherhood are +2 each. So 49 total. Those are all the references I can find in the code.

On top of that, you can get some "bound" generic points in other ways; escorts give you up to +9 in various skills, and Antimagic, Fungus, and Cursed Aura trees each start with 1 point in them.

JosephWongKS
Apr 4, 2009

I hate this book and I hate Railrunner and I hate Thunderbark and I hate Black Magic and I hate everything they stand for.

Jazerus posted:

Nothing changes base stats, not even racial penalties and bonuses, other than spending points at levelup.

Stat boosts from successful escort quests go towards your base stats.


ToxicFrog posted:

On top of that, you can get some "bound" generic points in other ways; escorts give you up to +9 in various skills, and Antimagic, Fungus, and Cursed Aura trees each start with 1 point in them.

Fungus doesn't start with any points.

Dodge Charms
May 30, 2013


ToxicFrog posted:

Let's see...

You start with 2. You get 1 per level, excepting levels that are multiples of 5, and 3 at level 50. So that's 44.

Sandworm Heart is +1, Arena and Brotherhood are +2 each. So 49 total.
Yep. That's pretty much it, except for escort talents, which can't be in Cursed Form, Combat Training, or Skeleton racials... or Cursed Gear.

Actually just changing that up, making Cursed Gear talents a reward from escorts, would make the Cursed Gear tree 300% more viable and interesting. Maybe I can code it, let me try...


ToxicFrog posted:

On top of that, you can get some "bound" generic points in other ways; escorts give you up to +9 in various skills, and Antimagic, Fungus, and Cursed Aura trees each start with 1 point in them.
Not Fungus, but anyway Fungus is irrelevant to the Skeleton Cursed discussion.

It's certainly possible to go with fewer points in Combat Training or Skeleton racials, but I've not seen many people argue that doing so is stronger unless you're able to get enough synergy with your Shrouds gear.



JosephWongKS posted:

Stat boosts from successful escort quests go towards your base stats.
I think escort stat points count as a bonus, and they don't affect the base number (where the "base number" is the number that's affected by level-up points and limited to 60).

Interesting Wyrm Bile note: you can get the base number above 60 since Wyrm Bile applies a random number in the range (-3,+6) to each of your stats. So be sure to drink your Wyrm Bile when your two main stats are 60 already, to get full benefit from the potential + bonus, but when you still have some banked or future stat points to compensate for the potential -3.

Magres
Jul 14, 2011


Dodge Charms posted:

Interesting Wyrm Bile note: you can get the base number above 60 since Wyrm Bile applies a random number in the range (-3,+6) to each of your stats. So be sure to drink your Wyrm Bile when your two main stats are 60 already, to get full benefit from the potential + bonus, but when you still have some banked or future stat points to compensate for the potential -3.

My Cursed wound up at base 64 STR, 63 CON because of this.

(he also had 8 magic - below his starting magic - like a good Zigur follower )

Raitzeno
Nov 24, 2007

What? It seemed like
a good idea at the time.


Magres posted:

(he also had 8 magic - below his starting magic - like a good Zigur follower )

True Ziguranths bring their Magic stat to 0 or lower.

Ijuuin Enzan
Oct 28, 2006
More fun than dryer lint.

Nikolaos posted:

Speaking of combat training sucking up generics, if I know I'm going to pick up Legacy of the Naloren how heavy should I go into weapon mastery? Obviously I need to make sure I get that far to begin with but I don't want to just throw away points that could have gone in AM/fungus.

If that's your plan, you can probably be fine floating three points in it.

Jowy
Dec 4, 2007

Jesus Christ, it's a Pyro!

Benly posted:

It's fantastic, but getting it isn't guaranteed by a long shot, so you can't really build on the assumption that you'll get it, much less in a timely manner. Antimagic is guaranteed available as soon as you can handle the trial.

Hats can have Stone Wall too, not just the Wrap of Stone. I mean, there's other nice arcane powered goodies (Dakthun's) so that's not the only incentive, it's just the biggest one.

Also it's not like AM gives you a lot of use as soon as you get it, either, to be fair.

Magres
Jul 14, 2011


Oh god, Stone Wall is even better on Cursed because Hatevisiontm gives you LoS anyway. I didn't even think of that.


Definitely running a Cursed Aura Skeleton Cursed next, and I'm gong to fight the entire goddamned world. Let no adventuring party go unmurdered, let no orc patrol live! I love my mental image for Skeletons using Blindside is great too - your gear vanishes and your skeletony body crumbles, and some nearby bones rattle together into a new body, complete with sword inside of your target's spine.


Edit: How Cursed sound in real life https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e4pO0sQz94

Magres fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2014 around 05:11

JosephWongKS
Apr 4, 2009

I hate this book and I hate Railrunner and I hate Thunderbark and I hate Black Magic and I hate everything they stand for.

Raitzeno posted:

True Ziguranths bring their Magic stat to 0 or lower.

Does this game have stat-death (i.e. you die if one of your stats drop to 0 or below), like Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup used to?

Shwqa
Feb 13, 2012



JosephWongKS posted:

Does this game have stat-death (i.e. you die if one of your stats drop to 0 or below), like Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup used to?

Nope otherwise paradox mage would kill anything with low stats one hit.

Dodge Charms
May 30, 2013


Shwqa posted:

Nope otherwise paradox mage would kill anything with low stats one hit.
Yeah. Also Corruptors would be even more retardedly awesome than they currently are.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Magres posted:

I think I might try a no cloak (except for required plot reasons like Sunwall, Last Hope, and the Derth arena) Skeleton Cursed. Undead Cursed make the most sense to me, flavor wise. Question about skeles though - does their stat boost racial bump your base or effective stat (ie does it contribute towards the 60 cap on stats or not)

Skeleton Cursed are kind of confusing as far as the Cursed 'plot' is concerned, since in the Acorn quest it's said that you become Cursed as a result of being left to die by your caravan, but surviving. So when the last caravaneer is like 'we should have let you die!' you're just like 'uh, yeah, about that...'

psy_wombats
Dec 1, 2009



Okay, endgame aether archmages are absolutely crazy.

Remember that "archmages are artillery, anorithils are gatling guns" thing? Aether Avatar throws that out the window. Usually the crazy overpowered classes are at least limited by cooldowns, but with Avatar running, Metaflow/Secrets of the Eternals to reset it, plus the always insane Essence of Speed/Quicken Spells, you can cast an Aether spell multiple times a turn, forever. The fortress dummy reports ~4500/turn. Oh and 105% resistance penetration means it hits that hard on just about everything.

Admittedly the middle game required a ton of planning defensively (only death was when a levelup restored my mana and wiped out my disruption shield vs the master) but once time shield gets to be 1000-absorb and the disruption shield mana/damage ratio falls to .25, it's very hard to die to anything but spike damage from around corners. (so I grabbed Cauterize, problem solved).


Side note: are shortstaves a little overpowered? Seems strange to get all the staff benefits plus whatever mindstar/on-spell-proc/etc fits in the offhand slot.

psy_wombats fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2014 around 07:50

A Meat
Jun 28, 2013

CERTIFIED FRESH AS HELL DOC MAKER



psy_wombats posted:

Side note: are shortstaves a little overpowered? Seems strange to get all the staff benefits plus whatever mindstar/on-spell-proc/etc fits in the offhand slot.

Speaking of which, what shortstaves actually exist in the game? Are there randart shortstaves or is it just the halves of the Staff of Telos?

I haven't really gotten far with any character that uses a one so I haven't really thought about staves.

psy_wombats
Dec 1, 2009



A Meat posted:

Speaking of which, what shortstaves actually exist in the game? Are there randart shortstaves or is it just the halves of the Staff of Telos?

I haven't really gotten far with any character that uses a one so I haven't really thought about staves.

I'm pretty sure the only artifact shortstaff is the top half of the Telos one. The bottom is some sort of weird bottom-only thing. "Short" shows up as a part of some egos (magewarrior's maybe? forget) so the crazier the randart, the better chance of it showing up on them. For instance, the mainhand here, although that showed up late.

Dodge Charms
May 30, 2013


psy_wombats posted:

Side note: are shortstaves a little overpowered? Seems strange to get all the staff benefits plus whatever mindstar/on-spell-proc/etc fits in the offhand slot.
IMHO they're absurdly overpowered, yeah. Especially the new "Magewarrior" ego.


A Meat posted:

Speaking of which, what shortstaves actually exist in the game? Are there randart shortstaves or is it just the halves of the Staff of Telos?

I haven't really gotten far with any character that uses a one so I haven't really thought about staves.
The only shortstaff used to be Telos top-half, which was a tier 5 gimmick item for oddball Reavers and Arcane Blade shield-users. It was cool but not so much more overpowered than other tier 5 items.

Try a dual-staff Reaver, buy Staff Combat from Angolwen, and use Channel Staff at melee range. You'll discover whole new worlds of broken.

Magres
Jul 14, 2011


Is there any way to get my Shadows to be more aggressive on Doomed other than using Focus Shadows? These things have the attention span of toddlers. Like I love the idea of having this whirling butt of doom motes, and feel oddly paternalistic towards them, but they're derpy little fucks, to the point that I might have to reroll and go Darkness instead of Shadows, because having them gently caress around doing nothing while I'm running away from enemies with like 50 HP is driving me insane. I just want to tether them to me with like radius 4 like you can with golems.

Other Doomed Chat - play non-Cornac, go AM, skipped Cursed Aura. Tree is more hassle than it's worth imo, and with AM+Fungus+Racials you have plenty of stuff to sink Generics into. I'm gonna see how Thalore turns out cause Thalore basically always owns.

Edit: Nevermind, couldn't think of a good Thalore name. Urist McLightPuncher, Dwarven Doomed, is born! I'm discovering very quickly that Shadows are fantastic for stair dancing. Go down with three shadows up, have them meatshield and deal damage for you until they're all dead, pop back up the stairs to respawn them and do it again.

Magres fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2014 around 10:00

Walh Hara
May 11, 2012


psy_wombats posted:

Okay, endgame aether archmages are absolutely crazy.

Welp, your items are/were goddamn ridiculous.

Re cursed aura chat: it's really not that hard to get the shrouds curse since you get an extra +2 in a curse of your choice when the first skill is maxed, so you only need to fit 2 items with the shrouds curse in your entire inventory, which is almost always the case even if you never worry about it. Usually you can get even more in it. The bonuses are pretty substantial and really not that hard to abuse, gotta-go-fast cursed especially can keep up the "+15% resist all when moving" (can easily be +20% or +25%) during the entire fight because for them making a move in between each attack costs almost no time and the stat bonuses are nice. It's a personal choice obviously, I tend to get it.

By the way, if it has not been changed yet, there is a neat interaction between ruined earth and spine of the world. Basically, with the spine of the world prodigy you are immune to the ruined earth effect for 5 out of 6 turns (as well as to all other physical effects) allowing you to deal full damage while everybody arounds you hits you for half or less. Spine of the world is a pretty great prodigy even without that trick, so it's pretty worthwhile. It also works with draconic will. Sadly, both classes that can get cursed aura have higher priority prodigies (superpower/mental tiranny) so it does not get that much use, another reason why it would be neat if other classes had a way to get the tree as well, like they used to.

quote:

Actually just changing that up, making Cursed Gear talents a reward from escorts, would make the Cursed Gear tree 300% more viable and interesting. Maybe I can code it, let me try...

The idea has come up before but the problem is that a cursed guy would thematically never ask for an escort and that it's not wortwhile if you have to spend a category point and certainly not if it starts at 0.8 like the other escort quests. Still, a way to get the cursed aura tree would be awesome, so I'd rather have something along the lines of "if you kill a lumberjack villager yourself you get cursed" (change the dialogue with the guy to make this obvious) or "if you refuse to escort 3 times you get cursed".

Magres
Jul 14, 2011


A Cursed Escort could be to go murder a specific mob instead of getting them to a portal.

"You. I'm going to murder you some day. That's a fact. But right now? Right now I have GOT to kill this damned snake that is far to the southwest. Get moving before I change my mind and stab you to death."

Make him a fair bit tougher than normal escorts to make up for the fact that he's going to berserker charge most mobs.

Dodge Charms
May 30, 2013


Walh Hara posted:

The idea has come up before but the problem is that a cursed guy would thematically never ask for an escort and that it's not wortwhile if you have to spend a category point and certainly not if it starts at 0.8 like the other escort quests.
I mean to make it so that if you already have the Cursed Gear tree open, then you can get talents from that tree as additional escort reward choices.

Yeah it would be totally dumb to give just one talent (with the tree locked and invisible) at 0.8 mastery.

James Totes
Feb 17, 2011


The biggest flaw to Aethermages is that if your disruption field drops, unless you've been meticulously deactivaitng it after every encounter, you die.

99% Arcane Penetration on someone stacking Arcane Damage whose base value is dependent on damage absorbed?

rip in piece

ZypherIM
Nov 8, 2010

"I want to see what she's in love with."



The easiest way to do some sort of cursed unlocks for escorts would be to mimic how zigur works. Basically have a quest or lore bit that unlocks the option to do something *lore specific for hate*, have the rewards be based on str/con/will/cursed tree in some mixture for each escort.

Angry Diplomat
Nov 6, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

It would be sorta neat if you had a "betray them just as they reach the portal and feed on their hatred and despair" option to get +1 to something in Cursed Aura, yeah. Would be even better if other classes had some way to get cursed so they could do it too. In fact, the option to get cursed somehow would be a perfect reward for the Grand Corruptor stuff (she curses you when you kill her and you get the suppress y/n prompt next time you pick up an item).

ExiledTinkerer
Nov 4, 2009


I was once almost onto something by stacking Nightmare Cursed Aura on a Cursed, as the procs on being hit tended to create all sorts of crowd control and distractions---and a good distraction or several can turn into 100% damage avoidance while you smash/slice down whatever was the issue. Plus it gets quite a Willpower bonus allowing you to better focus Str/Con.

I really should try that again, main issue was luck on drops/fragility from all that generic sinking to get it to Crazy ASAP.

ZypherIM
Nov 8, 2010

"I want to see what she's in love with."



Yea that was sort of the general idea I had, though you'd want it to be a permanent unlock option or a low level quest in order to prevent someone from potentially having already had most of their escorts already. You could also link it into the heart of gloom lore-wise I'd think.

psy_wombats
Dec 1, 2009



James Totes posted:

The biggest flaw to Aethermages is that if your disruption field drops, unless you've been meticulously deactivaitng it after every encounter, you die.

99% Arcane Penetration on someone stacking Arcane Damage whose base value is dependent on damage absorbed?

rip in piece

Yeah this was a major problem mid-game but mostly mitigated by not picking up Pure Aether til around L36. The damage the arcane storm deals caps out at around 2000, spread over ten turns is 200/turn, which is totally manageable with long-lasting Time Shield. If I was ever actually worried about the storm, I could use Metaflow to reset the disruption + avatar, then reactivate avatar, reactivate disruption field, and then absorb the manastorm damage right back as mana and continue manathrusting things down.

JosephWongKS
Apr 4, 2009

I hate this book and I hate Railrunner and I hate Thunderbark and I hate Black Magic and I hate everything they stand for.

Is the Land of Poosh supposed to be a puzzle dungeon? Because everything in there is invincible and I can't hit any of them.

EDIT: I Rod of Recalled out and went to another zone, and everything there is invincible too.

EDIT2: I just need to toggle my movement mode back to "Default" instead of "Passive".

JosephWongKS fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2014 around 16:32

Lprsti99
Apr 7, 2011

Everything's coming up explodey!



Pillbug

JosephWongKS posted:

Is the Land of Poosh supposed to be a puzzle dungeon? Because everything in there is invincible and I can't hit any of them.

EDIT: I Rod of Recalled out and went to another zone, and everything there is invincible too.

Xom roars with laughter.

Stelas
Sep 6, 2010



JosephWongKS posted:

EDIT2: I just need to toggle my movement mode back to "Default" instead of "Passive".

As a bumpplayer I feel your pain, but that's also pretty hilarious.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

Magres posted:

A Cursed Escort could be to go murder a specific mob instead of getting them to a portal.

"You. I'm going to murder you some day. That's a fact. But right now? Right now I have GOT to kill this damned snake that is far to the southwest. Get moving before I change my mind and stab you to death."

Make him a fair bit tougher than normal escorts to make up for the fact that he's going to berserker charge most mobs.

Nice job with the new OP. May I suggest the information from this post to the OP?

Recommended zone order

Agean90
Jun 28, 2008


Magres posted:

A Cursed Escort could be to go murder a specific mob instead of getting them to a portal.

"You. I'm going to murder you some day. That's a fact. But right now? Right now I have GOT to kill this damned snake that is far to the southwest. Get moving before I change my mind and stab you to death."

Make him a fair bit tougher than normal escorts to make up for the fact that he's going to berserker charge most mobs.

I want a mod that adds in dialogue options for cursed that are just incoherent swearing that ends in attacking someone.

"You look like your good at killing things, can you get me-"
"gently caress YEAH I AM [ATTACK]!"

Bumper Stickup
Jan 7, 2012

Mmm... Offshore Toast!


Grimey Drawer

I finally got this working for me. Turns out running it with borders was causing the problems. Unlocked the cursed class and have been using that exclusively since it's the most interesting of all the classes I have. I just keep getting ambushed and murdered by archers.

Magres
Jul 14, 2011


vulturesrow posted:

Nice job with the new OP. May I suggest the information from this post to the OP?

Recommended zone order

I'll throw it on the wiki and add a link - otherwise we hit Archives problems eventually.

(people without archives are scrubs)


Edit: Done, and listed on the Guides wiki page as well.


Edit2: I want to spice up the classes descriptions a little. Anyone got suggestions? I pulled ADHD murderbeasts vs Evil Psychic Batman for Doomed from one of the guides for Doomed, I'm looking for more stuff like that but I'm really bad at coming up with funny descriptions for classes. If there's a class you particularly love, write up a little story about why you love them? I'll sift through stuff and try to find little bite sized 'holy poo poo this class is fun' descriptions. My goal for length is to have a mechanics description and a fluff description, together, be about 200 characters.

I did Doomed and Cursed (though if anyone wants them different and has suggestions, feel free). Also just added Corruptor, but I'm sure someone else has a better Corruptor one-liner than me stealing jokes from the required reading.

Magres fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2014 around 20:06

theshim
May 1, 2012

You think you can defeat ME, Ephraimcopter?!?

You couldn't even beat Assassincopter!!!


Magres posted:

I'll throw it on the wiki and add a link - otherwise we hit Archives problems eventually.

(people without archives are scrubs)


Edit: Done, and listed on the Guides wiki page as well.


Edit2: I want to spice up the classes descriptions a little. Anyone got suggestions? I pulled ADHD murderbeasts vs Evil Psychic Batman for Doomed from one of the guides for Doomed, I'm looking for more stuff like that but I'm really bad at coming up with funny descriptions for classes. If there's a class you particularly love, write up a little story about why you love them? I'll sift through stuff and try to find little bite sized 'holy poo poo this class is fun' descriptions. My goal for length is to have a mechanics description and a fluff description, together, be about 200 characters.

I did Doomed and Cursed (though if anyone wants them different and has suggestions, feel free). Also just added Corruptor, but I'm sure someone else has a better Corruptor one-liner than me stealing jokes from the required reading.
I'm going to propose this one to start.

Magres
Jul 14, 2011


theshim posted:

I'm going to propose this one to start.



Changed, you're so nice

Magres fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2014 around 21:11

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Dodge Charms
May 30, 2013


Agean90 posted:

I want a mod that adds in dialogue options for cursed that are just incoherent swearing that ends in attacking someone.

"You look like your good at killing things, can you get me-"
"gently caress YEAH I AM [ATTACK]!"
That's a great idea: if you kill the escort or otherwise fail the mission, and you have Cursed Gear unlocked, you get the Cursed Gear talent as a consolation prize.

(Also much easier than trying to think of a ~lore~ reason for every type of escort.)


Magres posted:

(people without archives are scrubs)
O-okay.

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