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Angry Diplomat
Nov 6, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

Magres posted:

Sweet mother of god. I need this in my life.

I do too, especially because I really want to see someone post "oh god my Doomed just died because a rare snake beat him to death with his own shadow "

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Dodge Charms
May 30, 2013


Magres posted:

Speaking of that place, how do you figure out what the order of the orbs is in ruined dungeon? I always just trial and error it and murder everything that spawns
There are two orders now, the "clues" in the poem on the dungeon-signs should tell you the order in some oblique way.

Magres posted:

If you can get a hold of DarkGod on IRC, I bet he can fix it for you
He's gone to sleep for the night.

ToxicFrog posted:

I'm going with "no, I can't."
DarkGod2 is just the channel bot. When DarkGod is on IRC he's just plain "DarkGod".

JosephWongKS
Apr 4, 2009

I hate this book and I hate Railrunner and I hate Thunderbark and I hate Black Magic and I hate everything they stand for.

Dodge Charms posted:

I think melee attacks with mindstars count as physical attacks even if they're inflicting Mind or Nature damage. It's only when you see "Player's mind surges with critical power!" that you get a mind crit.

If you went Anti-Magic you can mind crit on your AM Shield check, but not your melee attacks.

(Doomed can mindcrit on their melee attacks if they use Gesture of Pain.)

Ah, darn it. Back to good ol' Superpower and Mental Tyranny, I guess.

Stelas
Sep 6, 2010



Ruined Dungeon sometimes just fucks up. Usually it's the NE room, but sometimes it's the NW instead, and it happens exactly as described; you'll see auras and hear the monster's incidental sounds, it just won't be there. Darkgod's looking into it but it's been around for at least a couple versions.

Klaus Kinski
Nov 26, 2007
Der Klaus

JosephWongKS posted:

Ah, darn it. Back to good ol' Superpower and Mental Tyranny, I guess.

Doesn't rampage count as a physical/technique skill anyway?

Personally I found irresistable sun more useful since cursed aoe kinda sucks and single targets het murderized quickly enough anyway.

Magres
Jul 14, 2011


I might have to scrap my Doomed run if Focus Shadows doesn't do magical things for me - I went Shadows and they're honestly just too loving stupid for words. I just died to the Assassin Lord because my Shadows decided to loving putter around while I was running away from him trying not to die. Respawned, they all immediately aggrod on him and shredded him.

I don't even want advanced tactics or intelligent pathing, I literally just want them to actually attack things reliably instead of all loving off to go hit on chick shadows or whatever they're doing


Edit: Yep gently caress this. Another two deaths because they all decided to just go loving pick flowers while I ran from an elite elven warrior that was shredding my rear end into ribbons. Shadows are really frustrating - having 'does this ability that I've sunk a dozen class points into actually work' be up to the RNG deciding whether or not my shadows will actually fight is not my idea of fun. Like unless one point in Focus Shadows turns them all, in general, into focused, studious, attentive students instead of that loving kid who sits in the back of the lecture hall and alternates between farting, playing his 3DS, and looking at porn on his laptop, I really don't like this tree. Given the choice between Spooky Psychic Batman and bipolar, schizophrenic, ADHD shadow critters that poo poo the bed as often as they actually fight, I will take Spooky Psychic Batman.

Which is a shame, because when the RNG decides to make your Shadows aggressively attack and Blindside everything in sight, they're FANTASTIC. You just roll in with your posse and they dive on everything in side and tear their throats out.

Magres fucked around with this message at Jan 28, 2014 around 10:59

ExiledTinkerer
Nov 4, 2009


The shadow AI is terrible, all you can do to mitigate it is pump the Blindside command to 100% or use the "protect me" one to make them into a mass that has no choice but to engage.

Magres
Jul 14, 2011


Yeah Spooky Psychic Batman it is. What kills me the most about the shadow AI is that the AI for Summoner summons is really good! Like, the bad Shadow AI is intentional. I understand why, to an extent, because they would be very overpowered if they were aggressive and stuck to you tightly whenever not busy sucking all life, hope, and joy from your enemies.

A change I would love to see would be to make the Focus Shadows command an innate part of Call Shadows (ie learn Call Shadows, get Focus Shadows button too) that comes with the base line ~50% chance to instant Blindside. As you level Focus Shadows, you both get the increase in Blindside chance up to 100% and the ability to tinker with the Shadow's AI, like what you can do with the Golem. Let me 5/5/5/5 and cat point it and have myself a squadron of bodyguards that will aggressively pursue and destroy enemies before returning to my side, constantly hugging me and diving on incoming projectiles for me. It'd be more powerful (I have no idea where Doomed lies on the spectrum of class strength, so dunno if this would be an appropriate buff or what) but, more importantly, it'd be a lot more fun. I would love to tinker with different tactics builds - make them orbit at radius 1 and only ever use Lightning to see what happens, for example.

ExiledTinkerer
Nov 4, 2009


I'd settle for them even being Will o Wisp levels of aggressive.

ToME in general could use more synergy in skills if it has to be married to the linear tree notions as is---less one point wonders, more outright transformative effects and interactions should a player go thematically or oddly deep in anything.

Magres
Jul 14, 2011


Yet another reason Cursed's three skill Rampage tree is the pinnacle of game design. Transformative, you always fill out the entire tree to 5, and doing so hugely morphs how you play your character.








(slam does not exist)

violent sex idiot
Mar 24, 2007

O Muhammad, I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight


Pillbug

Going antimagic Stonewarden teaches you a lot about synergy. Because fungus+eldritch stone shield and mergeback and rockswallow and basically everything there works insanely well together.

Walh Hara
May 11, 2012


ExiledTinkerer posted:

I'd settle for them even being Will o Wisp levels of aggressive.

ToME in general could use more synergy in skills if it has to be married to the linear tree notions as is---less one point wonders, more outright transformative effects and interactions should a player go thematically or oddly deep in anything.

Besides racial talents I actually can't think of many one point wonders skills. Obviously a lot of skills are good at level 1 already, but almost all of those still deserve extra points into them once you have some to spare. Skills that are really useful at level 1 yet don't deserve to be leveled up at all like swap, hidden in plain sight, the last talent in the fungus tree, etc are extremely rare. Of course there are also some useless skills that are only gotten to access later skills and pretty much never used, but that's a different problem entirely (and there aren't that many). Many of the racial skills are probably one point wonders by design choice, one which I agree with (you still want players to have generics for the actual interesting generic trees).

I do agree many classes (especially the oldest ones) could use some more trees that actually change their gampelay.

Walh Hara fucked around with this message at Jan 28, 2014 around 15:14

dis astranagant
Dec 14, 2006


Corruption/Hexes is a one point wonder tree. I don't think I've ever given it more than the traditional one point in pacification hex, which I then constantly forget I have when I need it.

Magres
Jul 14, 2011


A ton of Cursed skills are one point wonders. First thing you do is max Rampage out, then slap a point in everything, then max like 5-6 more of the ~15 skills you just threw one point into (specifically like Blindside, Hatevision, Surge, and 5/5/1/5 the Gloom tree)

Walh Hara
May 11, 2012


Magres posted:

A ton of Cursed skills are one point wonders. First thing you do is max Rampage out, then slap a point in everything, then max like 5-6 more of the ~15 skills you just threw one point into (specifically like Blindside, Hatevision, Surge, and 5/5/1/5 the Gloom tree)

Exactly, you end up maxing them out later once you have more points. They're great with one-point, but since they still benefit a lot from extra points so I don't see the design problem. The skills you would never max out are skills you only pick up because you have to in order to get to later skills in the tree.

I forgot pacification hex. (although I did end up putting more points into it on my corruptor, but that was solely because I had too many gneric points lategame)

Magres
Jul 14, 2011


Walh Hara posted:

Exactly, you end up maxing them out later once you have more points. They're great with one-point, but since they still benefit a lot from extra points so I don't see the design problem. The skills you would never max out are skills you only pick up because you have to in order to get to later skills in the tree.

I forgot pacification hex. (although I did end up putting more points into it on my corruptor, but that was solely because I had too many gneric points lategame)

You max like 5-6 skills of like 15 you wind up picking up, and you use just about all of them. The majority of them are one point skills, and you use just about all of them. I'd use Harass Prey, Slash, and Frenzy every fight in the game as filler between Rampages and Blindsides, but all three were 1/5 because they're one point wonders


I mean, given infinite points there's no such thing as a one point wonder, because everything scales. It's about how much the scaling benefits you compared to other skills, given a limited pool of points to burn.

Bumper Stickup
Jan 7, 2012

Mmm... Offshore Toast!


Grimey Drawer

Had a great run going for once and I lost it all because a rare thief in the Unknown Tunnels was healing for triple the damage I could do, was not able to be knocked back so I could get away, and kept disarming me so I couldn't do any damage. gently caress that.

Stelas
Sep 6, 2010



Magres posted:

You max like 5-6 skills of like 15 you wind up picking up, and you use just about all of them.

Not necessarily.

Angry Diplomat
Nov 6, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

Magres posted:

(slam does not exist)

Slam would actually be hilariously amazing if it was a short-ranged charge that let you pass through enemies while hitting and stunning them (because you trample them, you see) and at talent level 5 it let you smash through loving walls. It wouldn't even have to do a lot of damage; its utility as an escape and positioning option, combined with the endless entertainment of knocking down walls and also giants with my face through the power of infinite anger, would make it a guaranteed 5/5 for me.

Ulvirich
Jun 26, 2007



Look man, you can't have both. Either get pissed off enough that you teleport through solid rock to hit a dude in the throat, or you get so god drat angry that you plow through solid rock to hit a dude in the throat.

Now I'm having a hilarious mind's eye of the goliaths in Borderlands 2 when you knock their helmet off.

Magres
Jul 14, 2011



HERESY. SURGE OR

God you skipped like... all of my favorite skills (except Rampage). You're a monster. Oh god and you have the Cursed Aura Tree. I fear what I do not undertand, and your character terrifies me. Teach me? I'd actually love to learn more Cursed builds, I just have like no idea what the various curses do and how it plays with what you've chosen to max.

Where do you get the Pearl of Life and Death?

Angry Diplomat posted:

Slam would actually be hilariously amazing if it was a short-ranged charge that let you pass through enemies while hitting and stunning them (because you trample them, you see) and at talent level 5 it let you smash through loving walls. It wouldn't even have to do a lot of damage; its utility as an escape and positioning option, combined with the endless entertainment of knocking down walls and also giants with my face through the power of infinite anger, would make it a guaranteed 5/5 for me.

The change I had been thinking of was increasing the slam duration and increasing how many turns it adds to your Rampage - if I could invest 5 points to get a stun that also boosts my Rampage 3-4 rounds, I'd take it in a hearbeat.

Walh Hara
May 11, 2012


Fibby Boy posted:

Had a great run going for once and I lost it all because a rare thief in the Unknown Tunnels was healing for triple the damage I could do, was not able to be knocked back so I could get away, and kept disarming me so I couldn't do any damage. gently caress that.

You don't have to defeat every enemy you encounter, if you can't kill it, teleport/walk away and ignore it. In the west, the only enemy in the west you absolutely have to defeat in order to progress is the Master, all the others can be evaded/ignored if they turn out to be too strong for you..

quote:

I mean, given infinite points there's no such thing as a one point wonder, because everything scales. It's about how much the scaling benefits you compared to other skills, given a limited pool of points to burn.

My point is that you could certainly decide to put points into any of these depending on how you want to play and what your priorities are, there is flexibility. You left these specific skills at level 1, that's fine, other people might put some more points into them, that's fine as well. There's flexibility. The true one-point wonder skills that are great at 1 point yet almost useless to upgrade further are very rare outside of some racial talents and exceptions like pacification hex.

Magres
Jul 14, 2011


Walh Hara posted:

You don't have to defeat every enemy you encounter, if you can't kill it, teleport/walk away and ignore it. In the west, the only enemy in the west you absolutely have to defeat in order to progress is the Master, all the others can be evaded/ignored if they turn out to be too strong for you..


My point is that you could certainly decide to put points into any of these depending on how you want to play and what your priorities are, there is flexibility. You left these specific skills at level 1, that's fine, other people might put some more points into them, that's fine as well. There's flexibility. The true one-point wonder skills that are great at 1 point yet almost useless to upgrade further are very rare outside of some racial talents and exceptions like pacification hex.

Oh okay, that's a fair point. I suppose then it comes down to what I consider a good one point vs what someone else does, etc

Arzachel
May 12, 2012


So I just summoned a level 39 Bringer of Doom. I'm level 12. Welp?

Bumper Stickup
Jan 7, 2012

Mmm... Offshore Toast!


Grimey Drawer

Walh Hara posted:

You don't have to defeat every enemy you encounter, if you can't kill it, teleport/walk away and ignore it. In the west, the only enemy in the west you absolutely have to defeat in order to progress is the Master, all the others can be evaded/ignored if they turn out to be too strong for you..


I just have that problem with roguelikes. I can't break myself from killing everything. Plus the thief was only level 13, two levels above me. I had already murdered a level 15 troll when I was only level 9 so I was all smug about that. Learned my lesson.

Stelas
Sep 6, 2010



Magres posted:

Teach me?

As far as Cleave and Surge goes I am already regarded as a monster, so there's not really any surprise there. Most of my build comes from the fact I'm a lazy fucker who looooves passives and just ramming my face into people as hard as possible. Dead is the best status effect, and with the equipment luck I'd had there wasn't really a lot of point in diluting my build by doing things that weren't attacking as hard as possible.

That character was my most recent attempt at actually using Cursed Aura and it worked out really well, if only because the stars aligned and I got a ton of Shrouds equipment. Shrouds is easily by far the best curse - the top two abilities give you (5% per curse level) resist all whenever you move and for 3 turns whenever you kill something. Add them together and I was basically at capped resists all day every day.

Curse of Corpses is not great, it just spawns the occasional ghoul to fight alongside you - but there's 0% chance they'll keep up. Curse of Madness will reduce your talent cooldowns but only if you lose a significant amount of health. Curse of Nightmares is pretty hilarious; all sorts of stuff happens to people who dare hit you, but it's very unreliable in my experience. Curse of Misfortune will boost your damage if that damage would kill the enemy when boosted... but usually that isn't exactly a problem, and I have no idea how much loot it takes away from you.

quote:

Where do you get the Pearl of Life and Death?

You get it by accepting the leviathan's quest in the eastern Sunken Temple, then killing the head of the nagas.

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


Arzachel posted:

So I just summoned a level 39 Bringer of Doom. I'm level 12. Welp?

Walk away and come back later, he'll wait. Or don't, sometimes you can take BoD that early.

sstrickl
Feb 16, 2011



Magres posted:

HERESY. SURGE OR

God you skipped like... all of my favorite skills (except Rampage). You're a monster. Oh god and you have the Cursed Aura Tree. I fear what I do not undertand, and your character terrifies me. Teach me? I'd actually love to learn more Cursed builds, I just have like no idea what the various curses do and how it plays with what you've chosen to max.

Meanwhile I'm playing a Doomed almost entirely focused on Shadows and Cursed Aura. For some reason I am not having the same AI issues as everyone else because my shadows are just zooming around being murderbuddies () while I just walk around well-protected from damage. I've never tried either of these approaches before, and I'm fairly sure this character will end up frail enough to not make it out of the West, but I'm really enjoying it right now.

e: Actually, with the Shadows/Cursed Aura combo, it's like going on a trip to the shopping mall with my friends with all the matching and accessorizing I'm doing while they hang out. Well, you know, if the friends were murderous hate shadows that killed everyone around me.

sstrickl fucked around with this message at Jan 28, 2014 around 18:31

Jazerus
May 24, 2011

I'm from another time, another world. I don't even know what you people eat for lunch.



Magres posted:

HERESY. SURGE OR

God you skipped like... all of my favorite skills (except Rampage). You're a monster. Oh god and you have the Cursed Aura Tree. I fear what I do not undertand, and your character terrifies me. Teach me? I'd actually love to learn more Cursed builds, I just have like no idea what the various curses do and how it plays with what you've chosen to max.

The key to a build like that is Gloom. You don't need the active skills nearly as much when everything that gets near you is stunned and debuffed just because they got too close to the murdertrain...while things that aren't close to the murdertrain do much less damage because the sheer power of your hatred says "nope!"

It does require Wil investment and prioritizing +Wil items until you hit the Str cap and can afford to go all-in on Wil to keep the mindpower high enough to affect things but it is really silly sometimes how well it works.

NachtSieger
Apr 10, 2013


Stelas posted:

You get it by accepting the leviathan's quest in the eastern Sunken Temple, then killing the head of the nagas.

That's the Eldritch Pearl, though. Pearl of Life and Death you get for killing... the guy on the right. I can never remember which boss is who, just that their names are Argon and Elrondel, or something like that.

Stelas
Sep 6, 2010



NachtSieger posted:

That's the Eldritch Pearl, though. Pearl of Life and Death you get for killing... the guy on the right. I can never remember which boss is who, just that their names are Argon and Elrondel, or something like that.

Oh, yeah, my bad. I got the two mixed up.

Angry Diplomat
Nov 6, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

NachtSieger posted:

That's the Eldritch Pearl, though. Pearl of Life and Death you get for killing... the guy on the right. I can never remember which boss is who, just that their names are Argon and Elrondel, or something like that.

The dragon turtle guy has some egregious name like Ulmwskwykk or something.

Dallan Invictus
Oct 11, 2007

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes, look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

NachtSieger posted:

That's the Eldritch Pearl, though. Pearl of Life and Death you get for killing... the guy on the right. I can never remember which boss is who, just that their names are Argon and Elrondel, or something like that.

Elandar and Argoniel.

Argoniel is the Corruptor who drops the Pearl, Elandar is the Archmage and drops the Staff of Absorption. The Pearl's when-carried stat bonus is one reason I like to kill Argoniel first, even though it probably doesn't make a huge difference to any given character's ability to win the fight.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

For inclusion in our ToME fluff. Constructive criticism welcome and appreciated:

The dwarf looks at you over the top of his mug as he drinks from it. He pauses and says, “A tank? What do mean ‘are you a tank?’ Explain!” He watches bemusedly as you explain the concept to him. He takes one more long pull on the ale and then slams the mug down in front of you. He laughs, “What sort of special idiot lets monsters beat on him while others get to have all the fun? I don’t know where you’re from but in Maj’Eyal you’ve got to be self-reliant. No waiting for someone else to do the heavy lifting. Yeah, I wear a lot of armor and carry a shield.” He pats the shield against the chair with something akin to genuine affection, “But I can dish it out as well as I can take it. You hit me once, I’m gonna hit you twice, as hard as I can with that shield. Don’t want to stand still so I can beat on you properly? A good thump from my shield will keep you right where I want. Want to stand far away from me and plink at me? I can close the distance way faster than you would believe. And once I start moving, I don’t stop. I go from one to another like a boulder with a mind of its own. I take a lot of hits and I dish out more. No, I’m not tank. I’m a Bulwark.”

He leans back with a satisfied look on his face and then follows your gaze to the dwarf sitting in the corner, hunched over a bowl of stew. His beard is dirty and he looks incredibly disheveled. As he eats he is mumbling constantly to himself. Sitting next to him is a very large axe, one whose size can only be described as ridiculous. The dwarf shakes his head and tells you , “That one there? He’s a Berserker. That’s a whole other story. Those guys just aren’t right.”

vulturesrow fucked around with this message at Jan 28, 2014 around 19:40

Luceid
Jan 20, 2005

Buy some freaking medicine.


Dallan Invictus posted:

Elandar and Argoniel.

Argoniel is the Corruptor who drops the Pearl, Elandar is the Archmage and drops the Staff of Absorption. The Pearl's when-carried stat bonus is one reason I like to kill Argoniel first, even though it probably doesn't make a huge difference to any given character's ability to win the fight.

The pearl also has 100% stun/freeze resistance, so if you are having trouble with that on the final fight you might find it handy to hide behind the paladin girl while shanking Argoniel, because Elendar is headed straight for the dumpster as soon as he can't put your talents on cooldown anymore.

Dallan Invictus
Oct 11, 2007

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes, look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

True enough, I forgot about the stun bonus because I've only gotten to the final fight on Celestial classes and they all shrug off status effects like it ain't no thang. Considering how goddamn long this game is, though, do people really get to the final fight without at least decent stun resist already in their kit?

Dodge Charms
May 30, 2013


vulturesrow posted:

I don’t know where you’re from but in Maj’Eyal you’ve got to be self-reliant. No waiting for someone else to do the heavy lifting.
"Yo, Alchemst here. This is factually incorrect. My buddy does the heavy lifting."
"Summoner here. I have many buddies, and Alchemist is right."
"Oozemancer here. I'm going to kill Alchemist later but for now I must admit that he has a point."
"Doomed checking out. I'm leaving with all of your wallets thanks to my little buddies."

psy_wombats
Dec 1, 2009



Dallan Invictus posted:

True enough, I forgot about the stun bonus because I've only gotten to the final fight on Celestial classes and they all shrug off status effects like it ain't no thang. Considering how goddamn long this game is, though, do people really get to the final fight without at least decent stun resist already in their kit?

I walked in once with a storm archmage that killed things that usually killed things so fast that statuses weren't a problem. 0% stun resistance. That wasn't fun.

Dodge Charms
May 30, 2013


Dallan Invictus posted:

True enough, I forgot about the stun bonus because I've only gotten to the final fight on Celestial classes and they all shrug off status effects like it ain't no thang. Considering how goddamn long this game is, though, do people really get to the final fight without at least decent stun resist already in their kit?
I got there as a Wildfire Archmage one time, relied on Burning Wake / Cleansing Flames to clear my physical status debuffs, died like a snowman in the Fearscape invasion portal.

The fact that the dragon portal immediately summoned two overpowered multi-hued wyrms and some kind of unique multi-hued wyrm didn't help.

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Angry Diplomat
Nov 6, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

Dodge Charms posted:

"Yo, Alchemst here. This is factually incorrect. My buddy does the heavy lifting."
"Summoner here. I have many buddies, and Alchemist is right."
"Oozemancer here. I'm going to kill Alchemist later but for now I must admit that he has a point."
"Doomed checking out. I'm leaving with all of your wallets thanks to my little buddies."

"HEY FUCKERS, I'M THE CURSED IN THE NEXT BUILDING AND I loving SEE YOU. GOOD LUCK HIDING BEHIND YOUR lovely MINIONS WHEN I TRANSFORM INTO PURE gently caress YOU ENERGY AND HATE MY WAY STRAIGHT THROUGH ALL THESE WALLS AND SHADOWS AND BLOBS AND poo poo SO I CAN CONSECUTIVELY STAB EVERY INDIVIDUAL ATOM OF YOUR BEING IN THE SPACE OF A HUMMERHORN'S FART."

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