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So, to start things off, I'm just going to mention that I can't stick with my initial plan to do this thread as a first time viewer giving their opinion on each episode as it unfolds. Why? Because after the first episode, I was hooked. Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles was a TV series that ran for two seasons and is, as indicated by the name, a part of the long-running franchise. However, with the disastrous third and fourth films having proven to be of a lesser quality than the first two films, TSCC is set in an alternate timeline, a few years following Terminator 2: Judgment Day where John and Sarah Connor (portrayed by Thomas Dekker and Lena Headey respectively) are dealing with the aftermath of killing Miles Dyson, all in the belief that they had stopped Judgment Day. Of course, given that this is Terminator, they haven't, and a new advanced Terminator - known as Cameron (portrayed by Summer Glau) - becomes John's new bodyguard, protector and friend. The most interesting part of the series, I felt, was while the 'mythological arc' was something of a temporal chess game between Skynet and the human resistance, the real, interesting meat of the show was the relationship drama of the extender Connor family and, in particular, the problems that Sarah Connor faces. It's a story concerned with motherhood, with creating life and guiding it so it lives up to its potential and ensuring that it does the right thing for the right reasons. Sarah Connor battles with raising the literal messiah of all humankind and Catherine Weaver attempts to raise John Henry in a similar fashion. However, this emphasis on motherhood is something I think might have hurt the series - but I'll touch on that in a moment. The show showed a lot of potential and it is really quite unfortunate it was caught in the the 2007-1008 Writers' strike. The acting was generally great, the writing was tight, the show did interesting things with the Terminator mythos without reducing it to self-parody (like Terminator 3) or a gritty war film (like Terminator: Salvation) and the action was quite intense for a TV series. The special FX and music (by Battlestar Galactica's Bear McCreary) was also something I thought worthy of note. I said earlier that the emphasis on motherhood might have hurt the series. While the Writers' strike was certainly problematic for the series as a whole (Season 1 and Season 2 feel vastly different and Season 2 has a lot of problems during the middle of its run), the fact is, I doubt this show is what anyone expected from a Terminator series. This is a series about Sarah Connor. John is there, but he's a supporting character, really. The show is very wordy, slow and philosophical. It's not an action series. Given how the vast majority of science fiction and Terminator fans tend to respond to media with a female protagonist, a teenager and a focus on introspection, it is clear why the show might have had problems. That is not to put the fault purely on the heads of rusted-on Terminator fans, because the show does have issues, but when I was watching and enjoying the series I found myself thinking that it wasn't what I expected a Terminator TV series to be like and I can easily imagine a lot of people reacting badly. During this thread, I'll be going back through the series on a per-episode basis and indicating what I thought was good, what I thought was bad and what I thought they had done better or focused more on to create a discussion. Given that I'm only a newcomer to the series, however, I think it'd be interesting if people chimed in with whatever knowledge they have about how and why the series became what it did. Why is Season 2 so different? Why does it plod along and fail to achieve anything when it opens and closes so well? What on Earth were the plans for resolving that Season 2 cliffhanger? As a final note, given that there could be newbies reading this thread, let's try and keep spoilers within black bars, at least for the first little bit. None of these things are an extensive list, but rather a quick list of things that come to mind when I think of the series. So, what did I like? John Henry. I loved every scene in which he was in, probably because Garret Dillahunt was able to make him so innocent and charming even though he was literally wearing the face and body of the series' principal antagonist. While the scenes of him playing with Bionicles could have come off as stupid, there's something about it all that makes it work. Summer Glau. I've never been impressed by her until seeing her in this series, but she totally nails Cameron. Cromartie. We've seen the Terminator as muscular and intimidating, we've seen the Terminator as sharp-faced perfect predator, we've seen them as a blonde femme fatale, and seeing Cromartie as the bland 'you wouldn't look at him twice on the street' everyman is so fitting. His voice is so bland and friendly. The temporal 'chess game' plot and the 'third faction' as represented by Catherine Weaver. How the series integrated some of the good parts of Terminator 3 - female Terminator, Sarah Connor's cancer, Skynet being active on the Internet - but imagining them in a better way. What didn't I like? This probably isn't surprising but: Riley. She was an interesting character but she clearly existed to do little more than drive a wedge between John and Cameron (as instructed, of course) - and this plot takes up the entire season when it could have been resolved in an intense, short arc. In a similar fashion, the need to separate the two seems odd when - in the second season - John and Cameron barely spend any time together. The complete and utter removal of the 'normal, everyday life' scenes in the second season. Given that the show was as much about raising John as it was stopping Skynet, it was odd that he is abruptly put into 'home school' in the second season. Some of the best scenes in Season 1 are when John and Cameron are at school and, frankly, who didn't want to see the two of them go to prom after it was raised by John's nerd friend? Even his removal felt weird. It's like John Connor ceased to live in the ordinary world at all in the second season. The death of Derek Reese. Did the actor want out? It's bizarre that he was killed in a 'blink and you'll miss it' scene, especially because Derek Reese was one of the pivotal male characters (and TSCC, as a show, did not have many male characters). Similarly, reintroducing Charley just to kill him was a strange decision as well. So, what did you like about the series? What did you dislike? Am I right on the money with what I think or am I wrong? Why? I'd like to discuss this series and dive into the meat of it because, while it does have flaws (particularly in the second season) I do feel it's a bit of an under-appreciated gem.
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Jan 31, 2014 13:10
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Milky Moor posted:
Really? I thought that was easily one of the best moments on the show. It's a shame it got cancelled because it was starting to get pretty good near the end if I remember correctly.
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Jan 31, 2014 17:10
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CODChimera posted:Really? I thought that was easily one of the best moments on the show. I suppose it was a good moment, given that it shows you just how deadly a single mistake can be against a Terminator... but it feels out of place. It feels like it's something Cromartie, John or Cameron should have been responsible for, not some nameless Terminator who gets dealt with by someone else in another scene. It just sort of happens and feels very 'Game of Thrones-ish' in the sense it is a death without meaning and is, really, treated without much fanfare from either the show itself (blink and you'll miss it) or characters (does anyone mourn?) It strikes me as a setup for the reveal at the end of Season 2, but its a very cheap device that makes little sense when examined (That Derek wouldn't be the Derek the audience knows anyways due to him being the same age). Like a lot of the things in Season 2, it strikes me as a good idea needing another rewrite or examination.
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Jan 31, 2014 17:32
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I don't know if it was shoehorned in after they found out the series was cancelled or what but I hated the very end where Weaver and John go back in time and land in front of Derick and Kyle Reese. John says "I'm John Conner" and they're both like, who? To me that just totally erased everything about the first two movies and that Conner was somehow the Messiah. Instead Conner just happened to be in the right place at the right time to save humanity and when he wasn't someone else stepped up.
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Jan 31, 2014 17:42
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HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE posted:I don't know if it was shoehorned in after they found out the series was cancelled or what but I hated the very end where Weaver and John go back in time and land in front of Derick and Kyle Reese. John says "I'm John Conner" and they're both like, who? To me that just totally erased everything about the first two movies and that Conner was somehow the Messiah. Instead Conner just happened to be in the right place at the right time to save humanity and when he wasn't someone else stepped up. I took it more to mean that by following John Henry into the future, John Connor had 'hopped' out of the timeline and emerged later on. Unfortunately, this meant he was never around to lead the resistance to victory. It would've been interesting see where they had gone with it.
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Feb 1, 2014 03:15
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I really liked the death of Derrick. He was an amazing character and one of the main people so it was shocking and fast. It really highlighted how it really happens in war situations. There isn't a drawn out gasping for air, say your last goodbyes type deal. Your friend is there one minute, gone the next. It's heart wrenching and senseless. With the lives John and Sarah lead, they've lost so much already and they know the threat of death is still right there around the corner they don't have time to mourn. They leave the dead where they fall and have to move on to survive. As a TV viewer I can't think of another situation where the death of a main character was ever handled in the same way and for that I appreciate it.
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Feb 1, 2014 03:39
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I agree with KilGrey on the death of Derek. It was so ballsy and done is such an uncommon way for a main character that it was one of the most memorable deaths in tv history. For me the show is notable because it was always, consistently better then it had any right to be. The entire premise was destined for failure to begin with--for every Buffy or Stargate there are hordes of abysmal failures of tv shows trying to adapt movies. They were jettisoning the last movie timeline. They recast all the characters and the main character didn't even look like the original actress. And they were leaving out THE Terminator, Arnold. And they made choices that were sure to be horrible--moving the characters through time to our present, the trite/creepy plot of John falling in love with a robot, introducing Kyle Reese's previously unknown brother--these all sounded completely horrible on the face. And yet somehow it all worked. Beyond all expectations. They didn't just push them into our time and forget about it; the fact that they were out of time and had missed 10 years of history was a plot point on several occasions. Lena Headey was fantastic as Sarah. Derek was so cool and likeable that I could forgive the fact that he was shoehorned into the narrative. His story was very compelling. The whole "multiple timelines" plot was convoluted and amazing. The idea that there were hundreds of terminators and resistance people from dozens of timelines that they couldn't even return to coming back over a hundred years to fight it out, change and correct history was brilliant. And they were so consistent, for example when Derek and Jesse realized they were from two different futures and didn't even really know each other. The other actors were great too. I'd already seen Dillahunt on Deadwood and was amazed by his ability to play multiple different characters in the same show, and he did the same here. Richard Jones' Ellison was a fantastic character, and Shirley Manson should have been stunt casting but she was incredibly effective as the Catherine Weaver. They made amazing choices dictatorially and stylistically too, from the aforementioned death of Derek to the pool shoutout with Johnny Cash as the soundtrack. And of course the  totally new direction at the end of the last season. I was so psyched to see where this show was going next and it's a crying shame they weren't able to continue.One nice thing they introduced was the concept of the different timelines all running together. It allows the series in film as well as tv to be constantly rebooted but still be part of the same universe, which is unique. Judgement Day can be moved back, but it's always coming. I like that better then the closed loop idea.
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Feb 1, 2014 16:16
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I too loved this show, and the way it used time travel. Though since it's not Back To The Future's time travel, I think it confused the poo poo out of a lot of people. The second season is actually fantastic. A very slow burn -- way too slow for current sensibilities, so I can totally see why why people didn't watch -- but the pay-offs were excellent. Really satisfying stuff that suggested a lot of things implicitly. Also very impressed that the show was doing great trans* and gay characters at a time when there wasn't a lot of that around on network tv. (Still not any trans* characters, really).
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Feb 1, 2014 17:29
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I've heard that the show was cancelled because Terminator: Salvation was coming out and they didn't want to have two competing Terminator stories running concurrently, so they decided they were going to put their eggs in the movie basket in the hopes that the film would be successful enough to get another one made afterwards. I don't know if that's actually true though. 
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Feb 2, 2014 11:46
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Tiggum posted:I've heard that the show was cancelled because Terminator: Salvation was coming out and they didn't want to have two competing Terminator stories running concurrently, so they decided they were going to put their eggs in the movie basket in the hopes that the film would be successful enough to get another one made afterwards. I don't know if that's actually true though. I don't know about that either, but the show got really, really good and then at a critical time when it was gaining viewers and started to do better they showed three of the worst episodes of the shows run. I don't know if that had anything to do with it but I always kind of felt that it might have contributed. I mean, I loved this show since the beginning and the bar is set really low for what I'll watch and be entertained by and even I had a hard time watching those three.
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Feb 2, 2014 12:13
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KilGrey posted:I don't know about that either, but the show got really, really good and then at a critical time when it was gaining viewers and started to do better they showed three of the worst episodes of the shows run. I don't know if that had anything to do with it but I always kind of felt that it might have contributed. I mean, I loved this show since the beginning and the bar is set really low for what I'll watch and be entertained by and even I had a hard time watching those three. Let me guess... Somewhere around the time of the UFO convention, Sarah hallucinates Kyle, everyone goes to a funeral, the sleep hospital 'it was all a dream' episodes? Because, man oh man, they were grating on me, too. There was a lot of interesting character stuff in the final one on that list and I actually felt rather cheated when it was hand-waved.
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Feb 2, 2014 12:26
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Milky Moor posted:Let me guess... Yup, those episodes. I don't know what they were thinking with those ones. If I ever did a re-watch I wouldn't even go near those episodes to skim them. I don't remember there being any interesting character stuff in the final one. If there was, it wasn't worth the lead up to it. KilGrey fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Feb 2, 2014 |
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Feb 2, 2014 12:35
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Milky Moor posted:Let me guess... The show was pretty good to begin with but slowed waaaay the gently caress down when Sarah Conner started seeing her crazy visions. That, the new Terminator movie and the timetable change meant that it had lost viewers and the network wasn't going to continue with the show. It's a shame because there were some really cool ideas from finding out that parts of his command hate him because everyone dies for John loving Connor or that John Henry wasn't SkyNet I still remember that scene in one of the last episodes where Shirley Mansion gets ambushed in her office by the drone and as she melts and reforms, you see that she's actually already divided herself in multiple locations and even the eel in the fish tank was a part of her. It was one of those great 'oh poo poo' moments and despite the fact that the finale was able to provide some closure, it really highlighted what a missed opportunity the show was.
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Feb 2, 2014 12:44
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KilGrey posted:Yup, those episodes. I don't know what they were thinking with those ones. If I ever did a re-watch I wouldn't even go near those episodes to skim them. I don't remember there being any interesting character stuff in the final one. From memory... John starting to take the reins from Sarah, to to speak. Sarah starting to 'slow down' and allow herself to be calm, even for a little while. John and Cameron being friendly for what felt like the first time in the second season. Kegslayer posted:I still remember that scene in one of the last episodes where Shirley Mansion gets ambushed in her office by the drone and as she melts and reforms, you see that she's actually already divided herself in multiple locations and even the eel in the fish tank was a part of her. It was one of those great 'oh poo poo' moments and despite the fact that the finale was able to provide some closure, it really highlighted what a missed opportunity the show was. Mmm. Like Astroman said above, the show was far better than it sounded on paper. It handled everything it did very well with a fair bit of maturity but I feel the show is really let down by a few decisions in the second season - while I enjoy a slow burning series, a lot of Season 2 felt aimless.
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Feb 2, 2014 13:02
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I thought the ending was perfect as it closed the loop. Future John Connor was supposed to be this legendary guy who rose up to fight the machines but the machines knew nothing about him. How's that possible? This is how: Conner shows up from nowhere and becomes a legend. The Machines send someone back in time to try and kill him in the past but they haven't got any idea where to look so go after a list of people that could be his mother. This leads to his birth. Skynet keeps trying to send terminators back to kill him as a kid but all that does is force John to be trained at an early age in guerilla warfare, leadership and other legendary soldiery stuff. This also results in a young John Conner being sent to the future armed with future knowledge and a legendary soldier skill-set to lead the rebellion and force skynet to send someone back in time to try and kill him. Because he was sent to the future as a kid, Young Skynet is never able to find out about him. Basically, the future never changes, Skynet's actions lead to the creation of itself and its destroyer (which was basically one of the big themes of the first 2 films).
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Feb 2, 2014 13:19
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Kin posted:I thought the ending was perfect as it closed the loop.  That makes a lot of sense!
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Feb 2, 2014 13:32
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Kin posted:I thought the ending was perfect as it closed the loop. Holy poo poo, and I thought the writers just sent John into the future so it wouldn't be at all creepy when he hooked up with Summer Glau since she wouldn't be a robot. This is a pretty good ending to the series/show I can't remember but was it ever confirmed that Shirley Mansion was the same terminator that John was trying to reach in the future?
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Feb 2, 2014 14:47
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Kegslayer posted:I can't remember but was it ever confirmed that Shirley Mansion was the same terminator that John was trying to reach in the future? I'm pretty sure that was just implied.
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Feb 2, 2014 14:53
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Kegslayer posted:I can't remember but was it ever confirmed that Shirley Mansion was the same terminator that John was trying to reach in the future? It's pretty heavily implied but never directly stated. As for John... It does make me wonder what would have happened to Cameron in Season 3. I kind of thought that she had been placed onto the Turk while John Henry took over her chip - hence the message on the screen - but it'd be weird to just remove her from the series like that, since I imagine most of it would've concerned John's future-time efforts and it'd be weird to not have him reunite with Cameron.
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Feb 2, 2014 14:57
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Kegslayer posted:It's a shame because there were some really cool ideas from finding out that parts of his command hate him because everyone dies for John loving Connor or that John Henry wasn't SkyNet Since we know only the barest details of the future timeline (I haven't seen Salvation and anyway it wasn't out yet at the time), the John Henry storyline really had a lot of potential to make that a hell of a lot more interesting. I really like the bit with Jesse in a future flashback where they were on the secret mission to go contact this mysterious third player who decides not to help, and how maybe Shirley Manson was there to change that by making John Henry side with the humans instead of staying neutral.
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Feb 2, 2014 16:10
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Tiggum posted:I've heard that the show was cancelled because Terminator: Salvation was coming out and they didn't want to have two competing Terminator stories running concurrently, so they decided they were going to put their eggs in the movie basket in the hopes that the film would be successful enough to get another one made afterwards. I don't know if that's actually true though. From what I remember the cancellation was related to the new movie but not for the reason you said. Fox were paying Warner a certain fee to be able to make a show based on the Terminator IP. Because the movie was coming out soon Warner figured the IP was worth more, and so increased the franchise fee for season 3. The show wasn't doing well enough to justify the increased expanse so they cancelled it after season 2
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Feb 2, 2014 17:12
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This is my Firefly/Arrested Development. I loved this show and was heartbroken it was cancelled. It shouldn't have worked, but it mostly did. (big time spoiler don't look unless you've seen it all) the death of Derek was amazing, for lack of a better term. It was sad, but how they did it, how it reinforced how ruthless, cold, and deadly every single Terminator is, even mr. no name generic Terminator 814 or whatever. I liked that the Terminators, even though they showed up a lot, were always a big deal and they really only could handle one with the help of Cameron. And it did a lot of interesting things with the Terminators. I thought the wayward time traveling bank robbing real estate mogul Terminator, with Cameron trying to robo charm the guy in the wheelchair. I don't know why, but I always thought that episode was ridiculously fun
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Feb 2, 2014 19:01
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TomWaitsForNoMan posted:From what I remember the cancellation was related to the new movie but not for the reason you said. Fox were paying Warner a certain fee to be able to make a show based on the Terminator IP. Because the movie was coming out soon Warner figured the IP was worth more, and so increased the franchise fee for season 3. The show wasn't doing well enough to justify the increased expanse so they cancelled it after season 2 This also came at a time when money was tight and forced Fox to choose basically between SCC and Dollhouse and they went with Dollhouse.
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Feb 2, 2014 19:03
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Astroman posted:This also came at a time when money was tight and forced Fox to choose basically between SCC and Dollhouse and they went with Dollhouse. And that worked out great. But then considering Summer Glau was on one show and Joss Whedon the other, their days were numbered anyway. But TSCC was the better show.
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Feb 2, 2014 20:06
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Dollhouse's overall arc and plan, when they finally got to it, was brilliant. But the setup it took to get there was a totally different show.
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Feb 2, 2014 20:41
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Astroman posted:This also came at a time when money was tight and forced Fox to choose basically between SCC and Dollhouse and they went with Dollhouse. They went with Dollhouse because Whedon convinced them he could bring down costs and make the show cheaper.
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Feb 2, 2014 23:03
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I'll go out and say, but I thought Lena Headley was a far better Sarah Conner than Linda Hamilton.
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Feb 2, 2014 23:10
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I just remembered something funny from the thread when the show was originally airing. In the first episode Sarah takes cover behind a recliner and people in the thread started bitching about how that wouldn't be very good cover. Cue some cops on the show talking about how she was so paranoid that she put kevlar in the chair.
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Feb 2, 2014 23:20
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 Never forget this show. 
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Feb 2, 2014 23:29
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Capn Beeb posted:
For reference, this is the part of the series where Sarah Connor learns about 9/11 from some gangbangers. Truly, truly poignant.
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Feb 2, 2014 23:35
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Circutron posted:For reference, this is the part of the series where Sarah Connor learns about 9/11 from some gangbangers. Truly, truly poignant. Never Forget. 
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Feb 3, 2014 12:46
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Astroman posted:This also came at a time when money was tight and forced Fox to choose basically between SCC and Dollhouse and they went with Dollhouse. Wow, what a contrast. Astroman posted:Dollhouse's overall arc and plan, when they finally got to it, was brilliant. But the setup it took to get there was a totally different show. Dollhouse was just a bad show in pretty much every way. I like Eliza Dushku and DeWitt was a pretty good character if you ignore the later episodes, but that's about all it had going for it.
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Feb 3, 2014 13:48
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The second half of Dollhouse was fantastic and I was sad to see it go. Fox went with it because it was an in house show and a million times cheaper to make.
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Feb 3, 2014 16:06
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Tiggum posted:Since we know only the barest details of the future timeline (I haven't seen Salvation and anyway it wasn't out yet at the time), the John Henry storyline really had a lot of potential to make that a hell of a lot more interesting. I really like the bit with Jesse in a future flashback where they were on the secret mission to go contact this mysterious third player who decides not to help, and how maybe Shirley Manson was there to change that by making John Henry side with the humans instead of staying neutral. I'm pretty sure that Shirley Manson and others like her was the mysterious third party. She sends a single word 'no' in the future to the proposal of alliance, but then in one of the final episodes she delivers a 'yes' to Cameron in the present. I think John Henry was an attempt to change the inevitability of Judgement Day by creating a different Skynet that empathised and had morals and ethics instead of being a heartless killer.
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Feb 3, 2014 16:25
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Man, I loved this show. It made Terminators terrifying in a way that I don't think any of the movies managed to accomplish.
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Feb 3, 2014 16:53
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DarkCrawler posted:Man, I loved this show. It made Terminators terrifying in a way that I don't think any of the movies managed to accomplish. Absolutely. I love that despite all their precautions, all their preparations, the ground was never solid beneath the Conners' feet. All it takes is one person saying the wrong thing at the wrong time to expose them and bring a terminator to their doorstep. Irish Joe fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 3, 2014 16:59
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I love how consistent the show was about the fact that there is only one strategy against a Terminator when you don't have another Terminator helping you. Run, motherfucker, and keep running. Like In Season 2 opening when Cameron turns for a moment and John Connor just loving jumps out of a second-story window because that's what you do!
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Feb 3, 2014 17:12
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In general I liked the idea that there were other factions in the Human/Skynet war that had different agendas, with shifting loyalties. Shirley Manson's character in general was interesting, since they left a lot of things mysterious about what she was trying to accomplish.
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Feb 4, 2014 02:24
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One of the best moments of the show is Derek's look of pure amazement at Summer Glau dancing ballet in her room.
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Feb 4, 2014 04:53
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Party Plane Jones posted:One of the best moments of the show is Derek's look of pure amazement at Summer Glau dancing ballet in her room. And even then, that's one of the things of the show that you would expect to be horrible if someone were to say: Kyle Reese's brother is moved to tears when he watches a female Terminator dance to ballet music. Fantastic scene though, especially when I think it is contrasted with the memories of the Vick Terminator. Also, why did they never say the word Terminator in the series? It's always 'metal' or 'machine' or 'scary robot'.
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Feb 4, 2014 07:53
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