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ImpAtom posted:Interviews with the direction also pretty say Lelouch is dead, I think it's worth mentioning. Death of the author and all but the dude is supposed to be dead as far as these things are concerned. That's what some have always argued and I used to firmly believe it. (Un-)fortunately there's more than one way to look at that answer in detail. To play the devil's advocate...you've just posted what Okouchi had to say but, strictly speaking, it doesn't tell us anything about the epilogue nor does it explicitly contradict a post-death revival (dying as a requirement to activate the Code). Which is the key to the entire debate. Moreover, there's also what Taniguchi had to say in another one of those last Code Geass R2 interviews, which gives off a different impression: quote:" (laugh) It's up to everyone how they want to interpret the ending, I don't mind, but for me, it was a Happy Ending." wielder fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 04:29
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That's really stretching. Basically this entire argument is "Lelouch survived, but it happened entirely offscreen and they decided to never show it, and literally the only reason to do this is because audience members are unwilling to accept the protagonist dying a tragic death." Considering that Okouchi went on to do Valvrave which also has the protagonist die in a self-sacrifice moment in the last episode while he is held by his super-soldier best friend , I think the dude just likes that kind of ending. And as far as the Happy Ending quote, again: quote:Which is why I think of both our and Lelouch's decision as Happy Ends. I believe that there will be better things in the tomorrow awaiting Nunnally, Kallen and the rest who have been left behind. And surely Lelouch, who was able to make this into a reality, can only be happy [about this]. Also  List of people who died in R2. Check the bottom. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 04:36
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chumbler posted:^^^^ "Get hosed, Suzaku" is basically the secondary theme of Geass, so that wouldn't really be out of the show's character. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who actually liked the guy. There's some part of me that wants to imagine a happy ending for Karen and Suzaku, since they both got kinda screwed, though Suzaku certainly worse. Suzaku deserves every bad thing that happens to him, and he certainly doesn't deserve someone as awesome as Kallen (remember that Refrain thing? gently caress Suzaku). Having said that, I feel the notion of Suzaku's end being "bad" is greatly exaggerated. Okay yes his name is reviled and he has to be Zero forever, but when you get down to it he still gets to live out his life hanging with Nunally and everyone important pretty much figured out who Zero is during the parade. Lelouch on the other hand gets jack poo poo for all his efforts (if dead, which I think he is as much as I'd like it to be otherwise), to say nothing of how miserable a bunch of other characters like Kallen are in the end. Oh but it's okay because Ougi and Viletta are married and he's Prime Minister! 
Rody One Half fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 04:44
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ImpAtom posted:That's really stretching. No, the reason they didn't show him surviving is obviously because they meant for him to have died. That's not the argument, because that's clearly what they intended the ending to mean. The argument is that what they intended is irrelevant if you're just talking about different ways of looking at the story. I prefer the "Lelouch dies" ending and acknowledge it's how they intended the ending, I just think it's interesting to consider other possibilities.
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Feb 9, 2014 04:51
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ImpAtom posted:That's really stretching. Absolutely, but this is Code Geass after all. Stretching isn't particularly out of the question here. There's been stretching in the other direction too, so anyone can freely pick their favorite flavor. I think the whole argument is a circular one, since neither side is really willing to compromise. Any direct comparison to Valvrave is a bit silly, truth be told, since the context is totally unrelated. Like if I chose to bring up how the epilogue of Taniguchi's GunxSword has a last minute surprise. Perhaps that's also going on here? Maybe. Or maybe not. quote:List of people who died in R2. Check the bottom. Yes, that's another one of the usual things people tend to bring up. But let's put it this way: Even Gundam has contradictory information in officially licensed printed materials, such as guide books, magazines, manuals, etc. about how certain events went down, not just numbers and other data. It's also not hard to assume that's part of the deception, since technically the person known as Lelouch vi Britannia is definitely no more. This is all purely academic though, since nothing's going to change without any additional animated content. wielder fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 05:06
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Rodyle posted:Suzaku deserves every bad thing that happens to him, and he certainly doesn't deserve someone as awesome as Kallen (remember that Refrain thing? gently caress Suzaku). Suzaku has to live the rest of his life atoning for what he did, forced to take on the face of the person responsible for the death of the woman he loved, and to (hopefully) do good works in the name of that person and he's unable to kill himself to ever escape from it. That's a pretty lovely end for a guy who has no real joy in his life and who wanted nothing more than to die. The fact that people know who he is doesn't change that. And honestly, if you think Suzaku shouldn't have gotten a good ending because of things like Refrain, Lelouch shouldn't have either. Lelouch spend most of the series doing absolutely abhorrent things and no amount of good intentions can change the fact that he toyed with people's minds in utterly obscene ways. He made people murder other people, made people betray those close to them, made people kill themselves, started and prolonged wars, and in general did an absolute laundry list of absolutely disgusting things. That's discounting the things that were entirely out of his control but still the result of his actions. (Euphemia and Suzaku's nuking both being good examples here.) Lelouch might be the main character but he isn't a good person. It's easy to forget that he leaves a trail of horror and destruction in his wake and there are countless Oranges and Vilettas and Suzakus among the survivors of his Geass who don't get the benefit of main character screen time. XboxPants posted:No, the reason they didn't show him surviving is obviously because they meant for him to have died. That's not the argument, because that's clearly what they intended the ending to mean. The argument is that what they intended is irrelevant if you're just talking about different ways of looking at the story. I prefer the "Lelouch dies" ending and acknowledge it's how they intended the ending, I just think it's interesting to consider other possibilities. No, this is a case where people are canonically arguing that he totally survived and that was the writer's intention, not Death of the Author readings of the story. wielder posted:Even Gundam has contradictory information in officially licensed printed materials, such as guide books, magazines, manuals, etc. about how certain events went down, not just numbers and other data. It's also not hard to assume that's part of the deception, since teechnically the person known as Lelouch vi Britannia is definitely no more. Yes, but at this point, there's absolutely nothing contradicting it. This isn't like Gundam canonical stuff where two different things are contradiction. It is one flat straightly stated answer and nothing official contradicting it. There's no point anyone, anywhere, at any point has stated Lelouch survives as far as I'm aware, or even given any indication that Lelouch's survival is a matter of debate. If he wasn't a popular main character it wouldn't even be up for debate. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 05:06
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Only reason I'd want Lelouch alive is if they made a third season and decided to make him Master Asia like in the Nunnally comic. Though they could also just do that with Suzaku-Zero since he's already a tad superhuman.
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Feb 9, 2014 05:11
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, but at this point, there's absolutely nothing contradicting it. This isn't like Gundam canonical stuff where two different things are contradiction. It is one flat straightly stated answer and nothing official contradicting it. There's no point anyone, anywhere, at any point has stated Lelouch survives as far as I'm aware, or even given any indication that Lelouch's survival is a matter of debate. If he wasn't a popular main character it wouldn't even be up for debate. Here's something I just thought of. If they had wanted to make some very slight indication that perhaps Lelouch survived, it would have been very easy; just include a brief scene in the epilogue showing C.C.'s corpse, or even just a blonde corpse that could possibly be her. That would be enough. They didn't do that, and not only that, they did the complete opposite. To me, that's perhaps the most telling thing of all. (yes, C.C. seems happy in the epilogue, and there's a crane, symbolizing a fulfilled wish, and you could say that implies that Lelouch took her code, but it could just as easily be taken to mean that she's happy because he showed her there's another way and she doesn't have to hate life)
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Feb 9, 2014 05:27
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Eej posted:Really though, Lelouch is just an anime version of Leto Artreides II and it doesn't make sense if he is alive in any way after. I am so glad somebody else made this connection because after finishing the show for the first time and thinking why Lelouch's plan seemed familiar I realized it was just Dune the animation.
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Feb 9, 2014 05:31
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ImpAtom posted:Lelouch might be the main character but he isn't a good person. It's easy to forget that he leaves a trail of horror and destruction in his wake and there are countless Oranges and Vilettas and Suzakus among the survivors of his Geass who don't get the benefit of main character screen time. I agree with you about that. Even Jun Fukuyama was surprised by how Lelouch remained popular despite going so far. quote:Yes, but at this point, there's absolutely nothing contradicting it. This isn't like Gundam canonical stuff where two different things are contradiction. It is one flat straightly stated answer and nothing official contradicting it. There's no point anyone, anywhere, at any point has stated Lelouch survives as far as I'm aware, or even given any indication that Lelouch's survival is a matter of debate. If he wasn't a popular main character it wouldn't even be up for debate. It's actually a contradiction (or a conflict of interpretations) between: 1. The death scene, which came across as conclusive, and the epilogue, which came across as teasing. 2. Different audience views on other scenes. Scenes related to the Code, Geass and C.C. among others. 3. Different interviews, such as those with Okouchi and Taniguchi. What each of us posted above. 4. How much weight to put on licensed printed materials (death list, etc.) and the way they should be read. If you want my position, it's that both the director and Sunrise as a company probably think it's fine for people to argue about this. The ending, with the inclusion of the epilogue, allows for it. I don't believe that's accidental. Lelouch is to be reasonably assumed dead until proven otherwise, fair enough, but the current margin for speculation isn't zero. wielder fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 06:32
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wielder posted:...the current margin for speculation isn't zero. hah. As much as I'd like him to still be alive and happy (I like the guy despite him being terrible, he's just too much fun to watch), he's dead. It's better that way, really - no room for sequels to make him worse.
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Feb 9, 2014 06:43
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Yes, that was intended. Ironically enough, despite my defense of allowing other possible interpretations...I'm also on that side of the argument. The character's story already has an ending. You can make a prequel or side story or an alternate universe where he shows up, but don't mess with the conclusion. I don't want to see Lelouch again as the protagonist of a direct sequel. As awesome as Chirico was in Armored Trooper Votoms, they shouldn't have gone back to him after the end of the TV series either. wielder fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 07:08
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Well, just because you don't think he's dead doesn't necessarily mean you want him to appear as a protagonist of a sequel. I'm happy interpreting the end of R2 as a happily ever after (of a sort) and the end of Code Geass in general. We were given a conclusion, open-ended as it was. Besides, it's not like it'd be the first time there was an asspull. The first season of Darker than Black wasn't made worse by season two's release, you know?
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Feb 9, 2014 13:47
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There is really no happy ending that can be rationally believed. I haven't seen it in forever, but IIRC, pretty much the only reason Britannian doesn't own the world in the end is because the worst possible choices for leadership/plot say so and that's really only going to last for as long as it takes for them to be thrown under proverbial buses.
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Feb 9, 2014 14:46
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Lelouch is dead, L.L is not.
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Feb 9, 2014 15:16
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It's not really that I really wish Lelouch was not dead or anything, but I really can't parse that ending as anything but a hint to his survival. She is clearly talking to someone and not just some ephemeral non-existant person. A thing we've seen her do throughout the show and that actually had a conclusion and outcome. I mean, it's not a story that has to be told, but it's there is the author ever wants to use it.
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Feb 9, 2014 19:15
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Mordaedil posted:It's not really that I really wish Lelouch was not dead or anything, but I really can't parse that ending as anything but a hint to his survival. It seems like they intentionally put that in just so people could interpret it that way if they want to, leave some wiggle room for people. I mean, the creator pretty much said as much, that you can view it how you want.
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Feb 9, 2014 19:51
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Ethiser posted:I am so glad somebody else made this connection because after finishing the show for the first time and thinking why Lelouch's plan seemed familiar I realized it was just Dune the animation. Japanese Kevin J Anderson will revisit this series with a ghola clone of Lelouch a few years from now and we'll be wishing they didn't leave the ending "open for interpretation".
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Feb 9, 2014 20:04
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ImpAtom posted:Suzaku has to live the rest of his life atoning for what he did, forced to take on the face of the person responsible for the death of the woman he loved, and to (hopefully) do good works in the name of that person and he's unable to kill himself to ever escape from it. That's a pretty lovely end for a guy who has no real joy in his life and who wanted nothing more than to die. The fact that people know who he is doesn't change that. Most of the terrible things Lelouch does are in his capacity as a revolutionary leader, meaning ultimately the morality of those actions does indeed come down to whether you think the cause is just enough to make those means acceptable and whether his victims deserve what he does to them. Now, if you want to argue that the act of starting a violent revolution is an inherently immoral one regardless of one's cause... well that's kind of the discussion the show wants the viewer to have in the first place, since that is the entire point of Suzaku. Well, at least until he turns into a complete hypocrite and the entire Lelouch vs Suzaku dynamic the show spun on is hosed up. Not that Suzaku's cause was ever rock solid to begin with since all the superiors he signs up with are more cartoonish in their supervillainy than even the guy dancing around in a cape and mask while laughing maniacally could dream of being.
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Feb 9, 2014 20:05
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Mordaedil posted:It's not really that I really wish Lelouch was not dead or anything, but I really can't parse that ending as anything but a hint to his survival. She's talking to the dead person. It is not the first or last time in Code Geass someone talks to someone who isn't there. Suzaku does it to Euphemia. Does that mean Euphemia is actually alive and was just offscreen the entire time? Rodyle posted:Most of the terrible things Lelouch does are in his capacity as a revolutionary leader, meaning ultimately the morality of those actions does indeed come down to whether you think the cause is just enough to make those means acceptable and whether his victims deserve what he does to them. Now, if you want to argue that the act of starting a violent revolution is an inherently immoral one regardless of one's cause... well that's kind of the discussion the show wants the viewer to have in the first place, since that is the entire point of Suzaku. Well, at least until he turns into a complete hypocrite and the entire Lelouch vs Suzaku dynamic the show spun on is hosed up. Not that Suzaku's cause was ever rock solid to begin with since all the superiors he signs up with are more cartoonish in their supervillainy than even the guy dancing around in a cape and mask while laughing maniacally could dream of being. Lelouch isn't leading a rebellion for a great and noble cause though. He's doing it A) For revenge and B) to keep his sister safe. He isn't ambiguous about this and his primary goal, especially early, is basically Char Aznable. You can make arguments for the Black Knights on their own but Lelouch is pretty unambiguously using most of them and the fact that he eventually stops using them doesn't change the fact that he was for a very long time and a good chunk of his actions are predicated on his own schemes for revenge. That's ignoring the things he does which are not based in his role as a revolutionary leader but are just him being kind of a shithead. It's easy to remember that mind control is a really creepy and awful thing to do to someone and Lelouch uses it casually. The girl he Geasses to mark a wall every day is fairly low on the list of victims but she is still someone who is forced to do something against her will every day because Lelouch wanted to test how his powers work. (And if you believe the supplimental material she's still cursed to do it even when she's too far away to do it.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 20:14
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ImpAtom posted:Lelouch isn't leading a rebellion for a great and noble cause though. He's doing it A) For revenge and B) to keep his sister safe. He isn't ambiguous about this and his primary goal, especially early, is basically Char Aznable. You can make arguments for the Black Knights on their own but Lelouch is pretty unambiguously using most of them and the fact that he eventually stops using them doesn't change the fact that he was for a very long time and a good chunk of his actions are predicated on his own schemes for revenge. quote:That's ignoring the things he does which are not based in his role as a revolutionary leader but are just him being kind of a shithead. It's easy to remember that mind control is a really creepy and awful thing to do to someone and Lelouch uses it casually. The girl he Geasses to mark a wall every day is fairly low on the list of victims but she is still someone who is forced to do something against her will every day because Lelouch wanted to test how his powers work. (And if you believe the supplimental material she's still cursed to do it even when she's too far away to do it.) Rody One Half fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 20:28
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Rodyle posted:Those would be his reasons for taking UP the cause. That he isn't a true believer in it (at least at first) does not change that he's still the champion of that cause. He really is fighting to free Japan and break Britannia's hold on the world, even if he's doing it for selfish reasons. Again, that's the whole crux of the show, Lelouch believing you can only deal with corruption in a system by destroying it vs Suzaku saying you can rise up through the ranks to fix it. It does though, because when Lelouch is faced with a potential outcome that works in their favor but not in his, he has a freakout and starts plotting ways to destroy it because it ruins his own plans to use the Rebellion. He only gives in when Euphemia reveals that she was doing it for Nunally. Every choice he makes there is based upon his own needs and wants and not an iota of care about Area 11's inhabitants. He is only fighting to free Japan insomuch as freeing Japan gives him an effective warbase to do his own things. The thing is that neither Lelouch nor Suzaku are what they say they are. Suzaku claims to be fighting to change the system from the inside, and he is, but he's also a near-suicidal and pretty crazy person who desperately wants justification for the horrible act he took in his childhood. Lelouch dresses his wants up in noble clothes but in the end of the day he's more interested in saving Nunally and getting revenge than he is about breaking Brittanian corruption. Both characters are pretty hosed up. By the end of R2, yeah, Lelouch is willing to sacrifice himself in order to actually bring about lasting peace and Suzaku is willing to become the symbol of bloody rebellion. That's where their arcs go. Ironically both of them actually get the end goal they wanted only by adopting the other's methods. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 20:35
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ImpAtom posted:Lelouch is totally dead and the ending makes no sense if he isn't. The entire point of what he did (for himself) was dying to redeem himself for his sins. It doesn't work if you fake your death. Even SRW writes around his death by having him saved by Celestial Being super-science, not just having him survive. What doesn't make sense about Lelouch taking C.C.'s immortality code to survive an otherwise fatal attack? The rules of the universe allow it. Lelouch would almost certainly think of it. It seems like a superior option for everybody in the know (better for Lelouch, C.C. and Suzaku) It only doesn’t make sense if Lelouch has a hard-on for self-annihilation, which is not something I’m convinced about. Yes he's willing to die for his cause, but killing himself unnecessarily is something completely different. Lelouch has always shown himself to be a pragmatist and suicide is not the only form of sacrifice nor is it the only path to redemption. Also Lelouch tricking people and dicking them over is literally his M.O. for the entire series, so I don't see why it's thematically inappropriate for the ending. If Lelouch isn't around then who is with C.C. at the end and why is their face hidden and why has C.C. changed her outlook on life. Again I'm not saying this is the only interpretation, but at the very least I think it's ambiguous rather than being a definite death.
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Feb 9, 2014 22:47
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Elite posted:What doesn't make sense about Lelouch taking C.C.'s immortality code to survive an otherwise fatal attack? Because it is in fact incredibly thematically inappropriate. The entire point of Zero's Requiem is that it is Lelouch seeking redemption for all the screwing over he's done throughout the entire series. Him having a built-in escape clause so he gets to have his cake and eat it too defeats the point of any actual attempt at redemption he was making and devalues the entire ending. A big part of the ending is that Suzaku and Lelouch finally unite and then become one another. Part of the irony is that Suzaku is forced to live while Lelouch dies, just like how Suzaku is forced to become the leader of the bloody rebellion and Lelouch becomes leader of the entrenched status quo. Lelouch could totally have figured out a way to survive but at that point Lelouch isn't trying to find a way to survive. The dude is wholeheartedly honestly willing to die. Add on to this that it isn't shown anywhere onscreen at any point and the 'ambiguous' thing is "C2 says Lelouch's name while having a monologue about how Geass didn't leave him solitary and alone" and it becomes ridiculous. It isn't like there weren't a million chances to drop an actual meaningful hint or show Lelouch's eyes under the cart driver or whatever specific thing you want to say. This entire argument is predicated on "Lelouch is just offscreen! We're not shown him being offscreen, he doesn't say anything, but he's totally there." C2 doesn't even turn her head or anything to indicate she is talking to someone else. She's looking at the sky the entire time. Her entire last line is about the fact that she told him the Geass was a path of solitude but he eventually achieved his goal using the help of others. (His entire last speech to Suzaku.) And seriously, his last words are "You will no longer live as Suzaku, you must sacrifice your own happiness for the world's." Following that up with "But I, on the other hand, am totally surviving this poo poo and going off to hang out with my girlfriend" makes no sense for Lelouch at that point unless you're arguing every bit of guilt and shame he had was faked. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 23:08
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ImpAtom posted:Because it is in fact incredibly thematically inappropriate. The entire point of Zero's Requiem is that it is Lelouch seeking redemption for all the screwing over he's done throughout the entire series. Him having a built-in escape clause so he gets to have his cake and eat it too defeats the point of any actual attempt at redemption he was making and devalues the entire ending. A big part of the ending is that Suzaku and Lelouch finally unite and then become one another. Part of the irony is that Suzaku is forced to live while Lelouch dies, just like how Suzaku is forced to become the leader of the bloody rebellion and Lelouch becomes leader of the entrenched status quo. Lelouch could totally have figured out a way to survive but at that point Lelouch isn't trying to find a way to survive. The dude is wholeheartedly honestly willing to die. To clarify, you’re not saying that it’s logically impossible but that it’s thematically inappropriate? Also you accept that the solution works and that it’s something Lelouch would have thought of, but you’re arguing that he would’ve decided against it? Well that’s where I disagree. Lelouch has a clear route to survival and no reason not to take it as the only people who’d know are the people who would want him to survive. It’s not about whether he’s willing to die or not, it’s whether things are better with him dying or not. And it seems odd to speak so earnestly about what’s thematically appropriate whilst also embracing irony so heavily. How can it be inappropriate for Lelouch to survive his downfall, but be perfectly appropriate for Lelouch and Suzaku to end up representing ideologies that they don't believe in? ImpAtom posted:It isn't like there weren't a million chances to drop an actual meaningful hint or show Lelouch's eyes under the cart driver or whatever specific thing you want to say. If they did that then how would it be in any way ambiguous? That’s a plain “actually it turns out he survived!” ending. Yes Lelouch gets eviscerated on stage but we’re talking about a universe where immortality is a very blatant phenomenon, and Lelouch perfectly fulfils the extremely specific criteria to have immortality transferred to him. This isn't pulled from nowhere. There is a long inner-monologue from Kallen about the state of world where she clearly considers him dead, but C.C.s last lines "I said that the Geass is the power of the king which would condemn you to a life of solitude. I think that's not quite correct. Right, Lelouch?" are said out-loud to a mysterious masked figure whilst looking pretty happy. Talking about Geass like that makes no sense to anybody but Lelouch and if Lelouch died than why is she saying all that out loud to a random stranger? And why is she happy if her friend died and her wish got denied? Annoyingly different translations might come into play here, aside from the one above there's also: “The power of kings, known as Geass, brings one solitude. Not quite accurate, is it? Right, Lelouch?” “Geass, the power of the king, isolates people. Maybe that’s not quite correct. Right, Lelouch?” Well, regardless of whether you save the world or not or whether you use teamwork I'd classify "lying to the entire world aside from 2 friends and then dying" as a life of solitude. From there, "Surviving this poo poo and running off with your girlfriend" is about the only thing he could do that wouldn't qualify as a life of isolation and distance. ImpAtom posted:And seriously, his last words are "You will no longer live as Suzaku, you must sacrifice your own happiness for the world's." Following that up with "But I, on the other hand, am totally surviving this poo poo and going off to hang out with my girlfriend" makes no sense for Lelouch at that point unless you're arguing every bit of guilt and shame he had was faked. Suzaku always had a guilt complex, living his life for the sake of the world is totally his kind of thing.  And Lelouch is clearly being melodramatic there, being defender of the world has to have some perks ... hell he even get access to Zero's super-sweet wardrobe! Lelouch on the other hand 'survives this poo poo and runs off with his girlfriend' but sacrifices all his friendships, status and possessions to do so (in this way he makes the biggest sacrifices when he starts playing the bad guy, rather than when he throws everything away). Really the world is not improved through his death, just by people believing that he died and the only people who would know the difference are those that want him to survive. I also think there's a big distinction between him feeling guilty/shameful and him feeling that he deserve no happiness or feeling he has no right to exist. It's possible to feel bad about something without killing yourself and I think he sacrifices a lot through the Zero Requiem plan even whether he survives or not.
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Feb 10, 2014 01:21
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Code Geass was all about being as overdramatic as possible. It would be really silly if at the end Lelouch decided "you know what, for once I'm gonna tone it down a little."
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Feb 10, 2014 03:28
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BlitzBlast posted:Code Geass was all about being as overdramatic as possible. It would be really silly if at the end Lelouch decided "you know what, for once I'm gonna tone it down a little." Actually yes, because it's the end things are different. It's the resolution of a character arc, it'd be natural for him to do things differently than he had up until then, to show growth. In other words, "you know, for one, final time in my life, I'm not going to try to weasel out of things and put my interests first, I'm going to sacrifice myself for the good of everyone else instead". That's why people are saying that thematically it makes the most sense. I agree that logically there's not much reason why he would have died when, by living, he could have helped C.C. escape her suffering as well but whatever. I guess you could say that the one ending makes emotional sense, and the other one makes logical sense.
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Feb 10, 2014 03:39
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Elite posted:Also you accept that the solution works and that it’s something Lelouch would have thought of, but you’re arguing that he would’ve decided against it? It's not logically impossible in that it is impossible to come up with a series of events where it happens. That doesn't mean that they are plausible or justified events. You can come up with plenty of ways for anyone to survive anything in any setting but that doesn't mean they actually happened. That is why the show shows things happening. Elite posted:Also you accept that the solution works and that it’s something Lelouch would have thought of, but you’re arguing that he would’ve decided against it? The solution works in that these are things that exist in the setting. Even assuming that Lelouch could actually do what is stated? Yes, I do think Lelouch intended to die because he has extreme immense guilt and shame over the death of Euphemia and over the massive number of absolutely horrific events he was a direct contributor to and his death is a form of penance to Suzaku and the world. Elite posted:There is a long inner-monologue from Kallen about the state of world where she clearly considers him dead, but C.C.s last lines "I said that the Geass is the power of the king which would condemn you to a life of solitude. I think that's not quite correct. Right, Lelouch?" are said out-loud to a mysterious masked figure whilst looking pretty happy. No it isn't, and in fact you're making that up entirely. She says it while lying alone in a cart of hay and never looks away from the sky while she says it. There's a 'mysterious masked figure' in that there is a cart driver who the camera literally never focuses on. Also they clarified in interviews that C2's "time with Lelouch came to an end" so even if you believed he survived he wasn't with C2. (They also said they put his body into Damocles before they sent it to the sun but that's pretty easy to justify a write-around.) Elite posted:Really the world is not improved through his death, just by people believing that he died and the only people who would know the difference are those that want him to survive. Who would know the difference? Not Suzaku, who was literally crying as he stabbed Lelouch. Not Nunally. Certainly not Kallen. Who else is left besides C2 who would be happy about Lelouch's survival? Perhaps the biggest problem with the whole argument is that absolutely nothing is gained from it aside from "see, the character I liked didn't die!" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Feb 10, 2014 |
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Feb 10, 2014 03:49
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a) While Lelouch definitely has a more human side, he probably also considers Nunnaly and Kallen better off without him, and thinking he is dead is better then them fretting over the idea he is alive (see the beggining of R2, when Kallen and CC were hunting him down even into obvious ambushes) b) Suzaku was Lelouch's friend, but he also hated Lelouch for what happened with the Euphinator, theres no way that Suzaku would approve of a plan where Lelouch got off scot free after effectively causing that whole massacre at the first Special Sanction ceremony. c) I don't see how Lelouch sacrificing his happiness for that of the entire rest of the world who now has a figurehead to rally behind and start a new world with is not "character development" and is cheapened by his surviving. If anything, him allowing himself to die when theres a perfectly viable way for him to live would be a greater sign of lack of development (i.e. grandstanding for no plausible effect) then using the Code to get the result he wants (i.e. the villification of his name being used to unite the world) and live. Lelouch is not a atoning paladin, even with character development, saying he should eat his cake but not have it even though its entirely possible just because he developed as a character makes no sense. You are talking about not character development, but character dumbing down, a universe where Lelouch becomes a sentimental idiot who would rather willingly stab himself on a sword and die then to do the same thing but live. Of course, this is all based on the idea that he took the Code, but its hardly headcanon based on wanting a character to be alive. Its one of multiple interpretations for the end.
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Feb 10, 2014 04:25
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ImpAtom posted:By the end of R2, yeah, Lelouch is willing to sacrifice himself in order to actually bring about lasting peace... There are literally billions of people in setting butthurt over things like Brittania invading/conquering them, Lelouch's bloody rule (He probably still can't beat Stalin in the dictator ranks), or Britannia literally giving up all of it's conquests because reasons, and putting some of the weakest people in charge of it. I don't see how anyone can see this as a lasting peace.
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Feb 10, 2014 04:26
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CMD598 posted:There are literally billions of people in setting butthurt over things like Brittania invading/conquering them, Lelouch's bloody rule (He probably still can't beat Stalin in the dictator ranks), or Britannia literally giving up all of it's conquests because reasons, and putting some of the weakest people in charge of it. Because it is an anime and it says so. It isn't trying to be realistic. This isn't a Watchmen case where it ends with a fairly clear indication that all of this was for nothing and it's going to come tumbling down. The ending is everyone happy and cheerful and talking about how they're feeding orphans instead of waging war. As far as the story is concerned peace was won. Conot posted:Of course, this is all based on the idea that he took the Code, but its hardly headcanon based on wanting a character to be alive. Its one of multiple interpretations for the end. Again, it isn't. It's based off a single reading of a single line without anything else to back it up. Everything about "he took the code" is literally made up out of thin air. Not a single iota of it is shown onscreen or hinted at in interviews or mentioned in errata material or anything. If that isn't headcanon then I don't know what is. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Feb 10, 2014 |
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Feb 10, 2014 04:29
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ImpAtom posted:Again, it isn't. It's based off a single reading of a single line without anything else to back it up. Everything about "he took the code" is literally made up out of thin air. Not a single iota of it is shown onscreen or hinted at in interviews or mentioned in errata material or anything. If that isn't headcanon then I don't know what is. Except the producer (I believe that was Okouchi's role, please correct me if not) has directly said before that there are ambiguos parts to the ending of R2, and that he actually feels there was too much explanation, which makes a rather liberal interpretation of the end actually somewhat reasonable. quote:-----Some unresolved mysteries still remain. Again, up to interpretation, but putting a full stop in Lelouch's story doesn't sound to me like "He's dead you nerds get over it", but rather a ambigous answer that he won't have a further role in the stories of other characters, which would fit perfectly with a Lelouch who has faked his death and resigned himself to a quiet life.
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Feb 10, 2014 04:39
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Conot posted:Again, up to interpretation, but putting a full stop in Lelouch's story doesn't sound to me like "He's dead you nerds get over it", but rather a ambigous answer that he won't have a further role in the stories of other characters, which would fit perfectly with a Lelouch who has faked his death and resigned himself to a quiet life. How does "his story ended, full stop" mean anything but he's dead? Wouldn't being an immortal code-wielder by definition mean his story wasn't done? Especially since it says the other character's stories are still going? And that line isn't referring to the ending. It's referring to the setting in general. There's still mysteries left in the world of Code Geass. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Feb 10, 2014 |
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Feb 10, 2014 04:42
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ImpAtom posted:Because it is an anime and it says so. It isn't trying to be realistic. This isn't a Watchmen case where it ends with a fairly clear indication that all of this was for nothing and it's going to come tumbling down. The ending is everyone happy and cheerful and talking about how they're feeding orphans instead of waging war. As far as the story is concerned peace was won. I don't know, I thought it was pretty obviously indicated that almost everyone in the setting is some kind of a huge dick, and I think you should know by now that Sunrise doesn't believe in any lasting peace and this thing is more open for future conflict than any Gundam. Moreover, I don't think "because plot" is required to apply after the plot is over especially when the plot was hilariously irrational. But hey you're free to believe what you want. Seriously though, you could probably start multiple wars just by mentioning that the guy who nuked literally everyone is still in charge of a big chunk of the world.
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Feb 10, 2014 05:15
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Namtab posted:Lelouch is dead, L.L is not. This is the best. I'm using this as my trump card in all future Lelouch debates.
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Feb 10, 2014 05:29
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CMD598 posted:I don't know, I thought it was pretty obviously indicated that almost everyone in the setting is some kind of a huge dick, and I think you should know by now that Sunrise doesn't believe in any lasting peace and this thing is more open for future conflict than any Gundam. Moreover, I don't think "because plot" is required to apply after the plot is over especially when the plot was hilariously irrational. But hey you're free to believe what you want. The ending, again, literally has everyone smiling and cheering and talking about how they are feeding the poor and hungry and weapons of war have been dismantled. The guy who nuked people is under mind control (which is pretty lovely for him, mind) to obey and help. The horrible weapon that nuked everyone was shot into the sun. If you took "and then everything went to poo poo and everyone died" from that I don't know what to say but in that case I can firmly say that it wasn't what the show was going for. (See the "happy ending" quotes.) "Sunrise doesn't believe in lasting peace" is a particularly hilarious argument when you look at the massive list of shows that Sunrise made. Even if you just mean it in the "and shows inevitably get sequels" way, it's still pretty iffy. There's a lot of stuff which never got sequels and Geass so far has only gotten Akito which is specifically set before the ending of the show. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Feb 10, 2014 |
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Feb 10, 2014 05:44
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CMD598 posted:I don't know, I thought it was pretty obviously indicated that almost everyone in the setting is some kind of a huge dick, and I think you should know by now that Sunrise doesn't believe in any lasting peace and this thing is more open for future conflict than any Gundam. Moreover, I don't think "because plot" is required to apply after the plot is over especially when the plot was hilariously irrational. But hey you're free to believe what you want. There's a couple of things that are worth mentioning here: a) Code Geass was purposely created to be something far more unrealistic than any Gundam (except G). It's a very over-the-top work with a lot of operatic and Romantic traits on almost every level. In fact, in an early interview the director even compared it to a "romance" in the old literary sense rather than classifying it within a more modern genre. It's rather silly to apply too much pessimistic rationalism to any fictional story built on fantastical exaggeration and theatrics, just as it would be equally ridiculous to apply the opposite kind of over-the-top logic to the more standard military sci-fi Gundam universe(s). If we did that, then the story would have ended with Lelouch being unceremoniously killed right at the beginning. b) The peace does not need to last forever. Curiously enough, even Lelouch implicitly admits this. Why is Suzaku still around? Because the world needs someone to be Zero. Why was Schneizel made a slave to Zero? Because he can be useful. There might be additional troubles, a bit down the road, but addressing that would be part of another story altogether. For the time being, the major powers are exhausted from the fighting and busy trying to rebuild. Everyone seems to be happy at the moment. The end. If you want things to be messed up again, might as well wait for an R3 or at least an Akito-like spin-off set afterwards. And well...how many people actually know the truth of who did what or why during the recent conflicts? I don't think Schneizel's actions were all common knowledge. As an audience, we shouldn't assume that our privilege of omniscience is shared by the nameless masses of a fictional setting. wielder fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Feb 10, 2014 |
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Feb 10, 2014 05:54
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ImpAtom posted:She's talking to the dead person. It is not the first or last time in Code Geass someone talks to someone who isn't there. Suzaku does it to Euphemia. Does that mean Euphemia is actually alive and was just offscreen the entire time? But there is a huge difference between how a conversation is carried with someone who isn't there anymore and someone who has a prescence somewhere. Besides, the entire death and redemption scene reminds of a parallell elsewhere in the series: How Marianne died. You come across as very defensive of your interpretation as being the only correct one and everyone else being wrong, I don't really get it.
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Feb 10, 2014 08:57
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Edit: Honestly, not worth continuing the conversation, it's going to go in circles. Sorry.
ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Feb 10, 2014 |
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Feb 10, 2014 09:20
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 19:08 |
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Code Geass: You see, the realistic thing that this cartoon character would have done is...
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Feb 10, 2014 12:41
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