|
Veloxyll posted:I fixed that for you. You're not wrong, but I don't think there was any doubt about how bad Snap Shot was. On the other hand, Nittien just destroyed any credibility Double Tap had and used her remaining free movements to wipe the entire map. I'm not even joking. Youtube commenters tallied up the kills: Guiteirez: 1 Muton, seeker, 1 sectiod, 1 door Nitten: 3 Muton, 2 Chrysllid, 3 Berzerker, 1 drone, 2 sectoid, 2 mectiod, 1 sectiod commander, 1 seeker Tony: 1 chrysllid, 1 drone, 1 berzerker, 1 cyberdisc Dean: 1 cyberdisc, 1 mectiod Sprahl: 1 Muton, 1 cyberdisc, 1 sectiod commander, 1 mectiod Marquez: 1 sectiod Moreau: 1 sectiod Mass Overwatch: 1 cyberdisc, 2 sectiod Cyberdisc: Rk. Gonzalez Berzerker: Rk. Hill RIP Double Tap
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 05:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 07:15 |
|
|
Do note that for this map a lot of guys spawn out of cover, and you get handed rookies with grenades. ITZ's still awesome, but this isn't the map to use for a serious comparison.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 05:22
|
|
|
Random_Username posted:You're not wrong, but I don't think there was any doubt about how bad Snap Shot was. On the other hand, Nittien just destroyed any credibility Double Tap had and used her remaining free movements to wipe the entire map. To be fair, your main sniper will end up with several times more kills than everyone else combined in most playthroughs regardless of the final skill choice.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 05:26
|
|
|
I like Random's suggestion but I like Fist of the Jade Star the most.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 06:15
|
|
|
I really like the idea of giving The Jade Star of Guava Moments to Sprahl, because it is pretty much perfect.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 06:25
|
|
|
Brainamp posted:To be fair, your main sniper will end up with several times more kills than everyone else combined in most playthroughs regardless of the final skill choice. In EW I found my main MEC usually matched them. Less clear LOS and the sheer firepower of a good combat cyborg meant by the time a sniper could set up, half the map was dead. Long range grenade launchers helped with that too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 07:07
|
|
|
Fun fact! In one turn, a zombie can turn into a chrysalid, move like 10 squares and kill a dude. Also, a zombie can get up, move and attack on the first turn it comes to life, leaving no turns in which it is able to be attacked! Oh the things you learn in terror missions.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 07:38
|
|
|
Now I have to go back through all the videos and post kill counts. Cause I factually have that much time to waste.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 08:58
|
|
|
Why do people keep treating ITZ and Double Tap like they're in a cage match to the death? Even if one was that much better than the other (they're not, each is situationally useful), you can still have more than one sniper. Diversity isn't just a buzzword.Reginald Bathwater posted:Fun fact! In one turn, a zombie can turn into a chrysalid, move like 10 squares and kill a dude. Also, a zombie can get up, move and attack on the first turn it comes to life, leaving no turns in which it is able to be attacked! Oh the things you learn in terror missions. Overwatch. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 09:25
|
|
|
Felinoid posted:Why do people keep treating ITZ and Double Tap like they're in a cage match to the death? Even if one was that much better than the other (they're not, each is situationally useful), you can still have more than one sniper. Diversity isn't just a buzzword. The ideal is that you'll have two snipers, one with ITZ and the other with Double Tap. You'll get two snipers eventually in any game, so it's not like this is ever impossible. But if you settle into a squad with only one sniper if only just because the second one comes too late, that's what the decision is. Do I give my one sniper In The Zone, or do I give them Double Tap? My personal opinion is that In The Zone is more generally useful than Double Tap, though there's occasions where Double Tap works better, so if I have to have only one Sniper then I'd give them In The Zone.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 09:28
|
|
|
Mighty Dicktron posted:But if you settle into a squad with only one sniper if only just because the second one comes too late, that's what the decision is. Do I give my one sniper In The Zone, or do I give them Double Tap? If you settle into a squad with only one sniper...you can still use both. On different missions. Those occasions where Double Tap works better might be a good time to change it up, maybe. Personally I love to bring a DT + Disabling Shot sniper for missions I know a Sectopod will be in, for example. Bunch of Heavy Floaters? ITZ all the way. Now who you spend Meld and medals on, that's another story. But that's more about the soldier as a whole than one skill choice.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 09:47
|
|
|
Does ITZ work on all enemies who are not in cover relative to the sniper?
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 10:55
|
|
|
Yes. Of note here is that there are enemies who do not use cover (mechtoids, sectoids, anything flying, chryssalids, probably more), and even if they stand in a place that would grant cover they are not "in cover".
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 11:20
|
|
|
Voting for Fist of the Jade Star. Also, I never hardly use Double Tap but when I do while I fully believe it's not as good as In The Zone it's really handy when you need ONE thing dead really, really loving bad. Double Tap is the king of disaster aversion since it usually will let you do enough damage to one-round any enemy in the game if you got another squadmate or two in firing range.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 12:51
|
|
|
Snipers in games like this suffer from a major balance problem, They have a high damage weapon and can shoot anyone on the map, The down side they cant shoot and move. But they never need to move, so no real down side. Then you have assaults high movement major damage, but need to expose them selves to alot of fire. Heavy then who one would expect to bring the most fire power to bare have terrible accuracy and also suffer from a move penalty. Supports get what really should be an average weapon, and med kits. So Snipers really come out on top over everything, They have the firepower they never need to get close enough for damage to be a threat so never need medpacks, They dont even need to move if they get a spotting beacon. You should make a squad of all snipers just for fun and see what happens, I would imagine it would be a total stomp.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 15:32
|
|
|
Panboy posted:You should make a squad of all snipers just for fun and see what happens, I would imagine it would be a total stomp. Probably the only time having someone with double tap would be more helpful than having in the zone.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 15:44
|
|
|
Somebody would still have to go sightin' for the squad, though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 16:01
|
|
|
Doctor Reynolds posted:Somebody would still have to go sightin' for the squad, though. Gunslinger sniper.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 16:14
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:Does ITZ work on all enemies who are not in cover relative to the sniper? It should, but I sometimes have trouble with enemies the sniper is flanking at squadsight range. It usually works, mind you, but just every once in a while it won't recognize it for whatever reason, even if the alien head is yellow and the LoS clearly doesn't involve cover. Take those shots last just in case.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 16:15
|
|
|
Skill Roulette makes things a lot more interesting on the class debate front, but can lead to hilariously overpowered poo poo like assaults that can fire like 4-5 times on a single enemy per turn if it rolls in your favor.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 16:15
|
|
|
Doctor Reynolds posted:Somebody would still have to go sightin' for the squad, though. Gunslinger/Run-and-Gun Sniper. It'd be the only time it'd be useful.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 16:16
|
|
|
Alternatively, twelve Battle Scanners could probably get most of your scouting done for you.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 16:20
|
|
|
Fabricated posted:Skill Roulette makes things a lot more interesting on the class debate front, but can lead to hilariously overpowered poo poo like assaults that can fire like 4-5 times on a single enemy per turn if it rolls in your favor. Yeah, when I got a sniper with Holo-Targetting (the alternative was even worse) and HEAT Ammo, I gave him/her Double Tap specifically to burn Sectopods so hard. Discs and Mechtoids just vanished.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 16:22
|
|
|
If Sprahl actually rests in peace somewhere down the line, it's going to come as an absolute shock to me. It's like she's bungee jumping while tethered with one-ply tissue paper, and continuing to bounce back up. The Jade Star of Guava Moments is a good name, though I feel bad that we're leaving out Skippy Granola. Supersonic Shine fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Jul 30, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 22:13
|
|
|
Supersonic Shine posted:If Sprahl actually rests in peace somewhere down the line, it's going to come as an absolute shock to me. It's like she's bungee jumping while tethered with one-ply tissue paper, and continuing to bounce back up. Retroactively rename the dead base defense rookies to Skippy Granola, TIA.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 22:34
|
|
|
Supersonic Shine posted:If Sprahl actually rests in peace somewhere down the line, it's going to come as an absolute shock to me. It's like she's bungee jumping while tethered with one-ply tissue paper, and continuing to bounce back up. There's one medal left, we can get Skippy in on that one.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2014 23:34
|
|
|
The worst thing about ITZ snipers is that nobody gets any experience whenever you use the sniper correctly. I always try to have one of each, and if I need promotions for the rest of the team, I usually take a DT sniper as the "oh poo poo" backup and have the rest at least try to kill some aliens.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 13:36
|
|
|
cyberbug posted:The worst thing about ITZ snipers is that nobody gets any experience whenever you use the sniper correctly. I always try to have one of each, and if I need promotions for the rest of the team, I usually take a DT sniper as the "oh poo poo" backup and have the rest at least try to kill some aliens. Nah, sorry. If you have a sniper at a level where you're looking at ITZ, you have other dudes at similar levels unless you've been intentionally feeding that sniper and no one else. Take a few newbies with you, a corp. assault and heavy, find a UFO that's down and let the kids get some fun before having the grown ups come in if things get too spicey. ITZ is great.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 13:39
|
|
|
apostateCourier posted:There's one medal left, we can get Skippy in on that one. Skippy's Granola Balls can still be made to be the last medal, fear not.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 13:55
|
|
|
While the LP does demonstrate how amazing ITZ is, I'm still probably going to favor Double Tap in my games. From what I'm seeing ITZ is great if you can set up a chain, but Double Tap is still more reliable. In my games, I tend to encounter some situations where ITZ would be nice to have, but not often enough for me to consider investing too seriously in it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:03
|
|
|
Emissary666 posted:While the LP does demonstrate how amazing ITZ is, I'm still probably going to favor Double Tap in my games. From what I'm seeing ITZ is great if you can set up a chain, but Double Tap is still more reliable. In my games, I tend to encounter some situations where ITZ would be nice to have, but not often enough for me to consider investing too seriously in it. The thing is that a lot of enemies, especially in EW, don't care about cover- so they're all fodder for ITZ.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:10
|
|
|
And even with enemies that do care about cover, an ITZ chain is just a rocket away. Take a Heavy with Danger Zone, Shredder Rocket and Rocketeer for 3 big ITZ chains per mission (rockets also nicely soften targets up for the chains). If you want to add a second Heavy, grenades or a Mec you can ITZ chain just about every alien on a mission. Basically, once you have an ITZ sniper and a Heavy with Danger Zone you have the option to wipe the current field completely clean of aliens with the actions of only 2 soldiers (1 of which will probably still have an action left afterwards). It's ridiculously strong. Autsj fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Jul 31, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:18
|
|
|
How are you guys still debating this? 
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:40
|
|
|
Double Tap is only superior in very specific instances where you are dealing with really beefy units like Sectopods that make it hard to really set up getting an ITZ attack and when you're facing a small amount of enemies (i.e. you're really methodical or have some cloaker running point so you always can dictate when and how many enemies you are dealing with on a given turn). For the latter situation though, you don't really even need Double Tap as a decent group can handle groups of three pretty much at will, extra sniper attack or not. The former situation doesn't happen very often and the presence of a Double Tap sniper is kind of beside the point anyway as dealing with beefy enemies mostly involves having a guy with a Boosh and a heavy with armor-piercing ammo. In almost any other situation, with decently applied explosives and lines of sight, ITZ will give you more damage and more attacks in a given round and it does so in situations where you are being swarmed - which are exactly the situations where you would need it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:43
|
|
|
I've decided to try Long War and I've got to say, I'm liking it a lot more than I thought I would. I'll need to play further into the game to see what I think then, though. One thing I really like is that even with the starter equipment you've got armor and weapon choices where you can trade off damage and hp for higher mobility and vice versa.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:53
|
|
|
Pvt.Scott posted:I've decided to try Long War and I've got to say, I'm liking it a lot more than I thought I would. I'll need to play further into the game to see what I think then, though. Great discussions about Long War can be had here.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 16:51
|
|
|
Alright, let's talk about the base defense mission now. Some of the more important things about it take place before the fight. As Guava mentioned the trigger for the base defense is clearing out the alien base and will typically come somewhere around a month after that. There are some big dangers with being prepared for this, the first of which is that you don't know when it's going to happen so you don't get any time to prepare. Another likely thing that will make your soldiers unavailable to fight is that you may have just gotten Psi Labs built and are excited to throw your best guys in the tubes for ten days at a time. Additionally the game doesn't let you choose equipment for your soldiers before the fight happens. As happened with Sprahl this might mean some of the people the game gives you for the fight are not properly equipped, or even equipped at all. Its a little regrettable that the only way to deal with this is to ensure everyone is well equipped in advance by having foreknowledge that something like this is going to happen. When I play, most of the time only the 6 people on the skyranger are left with gear on. Everyone else is stripped by using the 'make equipment available' button on the skyranger screen. For the LP, I made special effort to keep everyone geared up between missions. Those that weren't going on the skyranger were usually left wearing the sets of old carapace armor and holding EXALT laser weapons just in case. During the mission has a few mechanics of its own as well. Several people have discussed the reinforcement mechanism already and pointed out how it operates. The game will continue to give you troops through out the mission, but only if you start losing soldiers. The first group will come in at the start of turn two every time, but from there, you need to lose soldiers to get more. Preferably you lose base personnel rookies as opposed to your own soldiers. It's a strange and perhaps counter intuitive notion that you need to get a rookie or two killed in order for Bradford to send you reinforcements that will include one of your higher ranking soldiers. As seen in the LP, the unfortunate death of rookie Hill allowed Isobel into the fight with all the much needed firepower of her MEC. Also important is to know that the starting soldiers and reinforcements work from a top down list of your soldiers. It picks the highest ranking available soldiers and works its way down the list. This is a fair enough system, and probably better than a random selection from the entire roster. It ensures at least you are fighting with high ranked soldiers. It does however potentially leave you wanting for a certain troop type or with an unbalanced squad if your high ranks are all lopsided to one or two troop types, as Guava relayed his experiences with a roster that did not contain an suitably high level Support to make it into the fight. Now then, assuming you have your soldiers, and they're properly equipped, we have the mission itself. The fight is divided into three distinct areas and offers a little bit of time and respite between each section. The first section is perhaps the scariest, even while the alien spawns aren't the deadliest yet. In the first turn six aliens spawned down on me and the only saving factor was four of them were melee and two of them where so far back that they weren't at least one full turns movement away from doing anything. It's still scary when you only have three of your normal soldiers and a handful of rookies. The only upside is that they drop out of cover and well exposed, so if you can deal with them quickly you can turn things in your favor. That is still pretty hard to do when you're short handed, and if you get berserkers like I did then you have a wall of HP to fight through. My advice for the area is to take the high ground and hold it. The aim bonus will help a lot, it leaves opportunities to get flanking shots on enemies taking cover below, and it might save you from being in range of melee enemies. The second part of the initial area is the wave of flying spawns in the back. It's a little daunting at first but pick you positions well and it's not as bad. The enemy has to fly or float its way into a big open room where you can shoot them from all sides. For my game the first cyberdisk through the door ate a squads worth of overwatch, cutting down one of the big threats before it had a chance to do anything. Stick to high cover and seek to eliminate whatever flies out of the cave one at a time. If you're lucky and get floaters instead, remember a rocket or alien grenade will kill them in one hit, so look for clustered targets. Possibly the trickiest spawn in this section is the chryssalid and muton that will drop behind you in the other room. Suddenly you have to deal with a threat from behind and even I got caught by the muton charging through a door to shoot at me from somewhere I was not expecting. The chryssalid though can be super dangerous. It's actually very close to the back of the globe room but it's separated by a wall and ladders which make getting line of site on it pretty tough. It's a bad case of 'it can get to you, but you can't see it to shoot it'. The middle section, the mech bay, has a huge drop of sectoids and mechtoids. The danger here is leaving the sectoids alive long enough to shield the mechtoids and also the mind control of the sectoid commander. The sectoids are all easy enough to kill of course, but the presence of much stronger units may lead you to prioritize them. Obviously they're a lot easier to mop up with an ITZ sniper as I did with Nittien, but leaving them alive to shield the mechtoids will create a much more difficult situation. Besides, they're three hp and you have base rookies with grenades, there is no reason to leave them alive. The other big danger of the room is the commander and mind control. By now though you should have dealt with a few commanders beside the one in the aliens base. They are most dangerous when screen by other enemies and allowed to use psionics from a well protected location with good cover. It's easy to rob the commander of both of those assets if you work quickly in the mech bay. Remove all the trash sectoids and then focus on the commander. In my opinion Mind Control is worse then weathering a few shots from a mechtoid way in the back. Although I've not tested or seen if the commander is distractible by base rookies. Having one of their weak minds get controlled wouldn't cause much of a problem. Lastly rear guard station. This is kind of straight forward. Go up the ramp and deal with whatever is waiting for you on the ramp. It shouldn't be hard to have a full team carefully advancing and ready to blow away a small number of tougher enemies. And from there it's a fork in the road with a big semi truck providing full cover and acting as the fork between left and right paths. A good number of strong units come out of the end of each side and the area is cluttered up enough there isn't a lot of fancy positioning to do. Use rockets, grenades, whatever you have to to get the job done here. It's the last wave of enemies so knocking out their cover and unloading on them is a good idea. Finish it fast and you wont be shut into a hallway exchanging fire. It's a long mission, and offers little time for breathers between combat and lots of opportunity to get whittled away at and take losses from attrition. Striking first, and hard, proves valuable to remove a lot of the bite of alien spawns. Getting them before they get into cover and entrenched will save a lot of time and effort in the fights as well, even if it isn't always possible to kill everything immediately. For the first two sections always taking the high ground and sticking to what few high cover spots you can find is also a must have for survival.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 16:57
|
|
|
My first time through the mission, I actually had the first MEC Bay spawn happen before the fliers. I haven't been able to replicate it since, but I can only assume that I must have clustered at the back toward the flier spawn so it changed things up. Also, being on top of one of the buildings toward the rear guard station is a fantastic position for your sniper, and I'm surprised you didn't utilize it given your desire for high cover earlier in the mission. Note that I'm not talking about the building in the middle at the end (though that's also a pretty good forward position for someone with more than one attack per turn, if you can actually get there), but the two on the sides of the ramp. They provide a nice clear line of fire and high ground aim bonus that I've made good use of every time.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 17:12
|
|
|
Yeah that alien base invasion looks rad as hell. I really like the big set piece battles like the final Slingshot mission and the alien base. They force you to play a little differently, kinda like the opposite of a bomb mission. I wish the regular council missions were a little more like that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 17:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 07:15 |
|
|
Is there a formula for how enemies spawn on the base defense mission? Watching the video here, I felt like I got way harder spawns compared to a lot of the sectoid and cloaker chaff I saw. I even had some of the endgame baddies make an appearance which was not very pleasant to slog through.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 17:17
|
|