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Blinkz0rz
May 27, 2001

MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

piratepilates posted:

we both know it's just business

Underlined, italicized, and bolded in 24pt font.

There's nothing wrong with liking your boss and feeling bad that you won't see them regularly. Business is business; it has nothing to do with your personal relationship.

In my experience having that kind of relationship with a boss is almost always a good thing. It can lead to some unexpected opportunities and having a larger network is always a good thing.

Case in point, my old boss tried to recruit me to build a team with him about 9 months after he left. I ended up turning him down but he and I still have a great relationship and chat at least every few weeks.

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good jovi
Dec 11, 2000

'm pro-dickgirl, and I VOTE!



Theres no problem liking your boss and I really feel sorry for people who dont. But if they are anything less than excited for you getting a better job, then gently caress em, they were never your friend.

wins32767
Mar 16, 2007



good jovi posted:

Theres no problem liking your boss and I really feel sorry for people who dont. But if they are anything less than excited for you getting a better job, then gently caress em, they were never your friend.

Yeah, when my folks leave for better jobs, I'm happy for them. I want them to grow, be happy, and make more money. One of the shittiest things about being a manager is knowing you have someone who is sticking around when that's hurting them professionally or when they're wildly underpaid because you only have so much raise budget. If your boss is really as good as you think, they'll be happy to see you getting what you need (and probably sad because they'll miss you).

Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008


It's hard even when you're full of hate for your manager.

When I was suicidal but sticking around because couldn't leave for financial reasons my manager at that company said "deal with it or leave". It took a full nervous breakdown for me to take some time off, and I didn't even quit - they just forgot I was gonna come back.

Rattus
Sep 11, 2005

A rat, in a hat!

The Cavern of COBOL > Oldie Programming: They just forgot I was gonna come back

Hughlander
May 11, 2005



Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:

It's hard even when you're full of hate for your manager.

When I was suicidal but sticking around because couldn't leave for financial reasons my manager at that company said "deal with it or leave". It took a full nervous breakdown for me to take some time off, and I didn't even quit - they just forgot I was gonna come back.

I really hate to say it Dr but your experiences are so a-typical in the 20 years I've been in the tech industry that they really don't relate to pretty much anyone. I've been a consultant, at start ups, at mega corps, I've never encountered an employee with your history. While your journey is deeply personal and meaningful to you, it just does not have relevance in the vast majority of conversations I feel.

Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008


This is true and I should probably dial it back...a lot.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I wouldn't say that drw's experiences are somehow invalidated because not everyone has had the same ones.

Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008


Me neither but they are super inapplicable in the general sense.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

My fingers are set to vibrate


I'd characterize this thread as being 50% life advice and 50% venting / sharing life experiences. Not every post has to be helpful to some hypothetical average reader.

Love Stole the Day
Nov 4, 2012


edit-- nevermind

Love Stole the Day fucked around with this message at Aug 31, 2018 around 04:34

Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008


Couple of thoughts on that.

I think they all want to see proof of work you've already done, not proof of things you've already learned.

I think the advice the data guy from Facebook gave you may not be good for you. Specializing is cool if you already have a career; if you're just starting out and aren't a new hire, they may want to see what you've already done. Are the game jams on your resume?

Web dev is easier, but it's also more commoditized. I'm uncertain that it'd work in your favor to triage in-demand tech.

Where are you applying, who are you aiming for? Without experience, companies like Facebook and Stripe are just gonna throw your resume out because they get tens or hundreds of thousands or more resumes per year and they just don't have time to bet on you. This is just another bit of advice which may be wrong and mixed in with a bunch of other bad advice, but have you considered finding startups which are hard-up for engineers and desperate enough to take a risk? They may not be good long-term career prospects but they may be useful in the short term. Maybe.

Couple of points showed up in a comment on a related post in my feed, c/o an ex-Facebook Director of Engineering:

Jocelyn Goldfein posted:

- the overwhelming importance of leveraging multiple competing job offers (cf my blog post on raises)
- going to a high growth company vastly increases your chances of a career making project (cf my blog post about promotions)
- the importance of running away from lovely bosses as fast as possible (do not imagine that putting up with the lovely boss is sacrificing happiness to maximize career it is the worst thing that can happen to your career)

vonnegutt
Aug 7, 2006
Hobocamp.


Love Stole the Day posted:

Since the Unreal Engine had recently come out as 'free' to use a la Unity I decided to specialize in that. Book after book. Every tutorial I could find. Game jam after game jam. Nowadays I'm usually the most experienced guy on my team in game jams and I'm helping new people all of the time improve with it. Still, though... it's a black hole.

Talked to some hiring manager goons and employed goons in the industry. Showed them my resume. They said it was fine and if it was on their desk they'd at least give me a call. Maybe try changing X, Y, and Z? Also maybe try rearranging this and that. Tried using the revised stuff to apply... still a black hole.

What are you doing to network in these companies you're applying to? Talking to guys from big successful companies is good, but I don't see anything about talking to people in the companies you're applying to. Game jams are great if there are local game companies, and if you're in any kind of city, there should be some webdev meetups. It's easier to take a chance on a guy you know than a stranger if their resume is lacking. And it sounds like yours is, specifically relevant work experience.

If you're applying to companies you'd have to move for / work remotely for...good luck. They're going to see the lack of experience and probably skip talking to you unless they have no other candidates. At best, you might be offered an internship.

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

The guy from Facebook telling you to specialize in video games just shows that there are people at Facebook who give terrible advice

Paolomania
Apr 26, 2006



Hughlander posted:

I really hate to say it Dr but your experiences are so a-typical in the 20 years I've been in the tech industry that they really don't relate to pretty much anyone. I've been a consultant, at start ups, at mega corps, I've never encountered an employee with your history. While your journey is deeply personal and meaningful to you, it just does not have relevance in the vast majority of conversations I feel.

Ever work in games?

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004






OK so you're looking for a junior position. Not infeasible.

- Talk to recruiters. They're typically horrible leeches of the same cloth as estate agents, but they have networks and a stack of lovely jobs they've not been able to foist on anyone yet.
- Apply specifically to junior positions as those companies SHOULD be expecting to take on someone at your level and train you up.
- However, there is a serious loving drought of employers taking on juniors right now, they all want senior devs to coalesce from the aether.
- The new government orgs seem to be better at this, try GDS in the UK, 18F/USDS in the US, or the new CDS in Canada.
- If you're looking at web dev, build something functional and a little bit useful and release it open source. It's a lovely fact that many companies demand lots of "free time" work from prospective employees and will bin a CV with a blank / irrelevant github profile. Do it in Ruby or Python.
- I agree with the meetups thing, there should be a Ruby or Python Users Group (or whatever other tech) near you and there will be companies prowling the mailing list and events for employees.
- Reword anything that might be considered "childish". Although good hiring managers couldn't care less if your experience comes from banking software or Skyrim Nude Mod XP, as with all things there are more bad ones than good ones. See if you can frame things in a "professional" context.
- Are you a young white male? It is a sad but indisputable fact that many hiring managers have horrendous conscious or unconscious bias.
- If you have an obviously female name, maybe shorten/alter it to something some stinkyhole in the pub would consider "a boy's name".
- If you have an obviously non-white name, maybe start "going by" something more lilywhite in your applications, if only to see if it changes the dynamic.

Having to reframe yourself, your work, or your name in order to get an interview is a horrible and degrading thing and I regret the world is such that I have to even suggest it, but the broad theme is removing every possible reason for this person to discount you out of hand. To get them to invest some time in you and build on that. And remember that they are looking for someone to provide value to their company, so that's where you need to invest your time, either through getting to know their business for your cover letter, or proving some way that you can do work which will bring them money.

If you'd like another CV review for the web stuff my PMs are open.

Good luck.

Hughlander
May 11, 2005



Paolomania posted:

Ever work in games?

17 or so of those 20 years.

Paolomania
Apr 26, 2006



Hughlander posted:

17 or so of those 20 years.

Then your experience in the industry is quite the opposite of mine where management was full of nepotism and old boys clubs and people in the trenches got persistently lowballed on pay and ground up trying to deliver overpromised features on mismanaged projects.

This is of course a limited data point, but more to say that such things are not outside the realm of possible subjective professional experience.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

My fingers are set to vibrate


Just had what I thought was a good technical discussion about why $coworker made the decisions they did in some code I was reviewing...and it turns out that $coworker's takeaway was that I wasn't respecting their experience and technical knowledge.

LeadershipInterpersonal relations is hard, yo.

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

LeadershipInterpersonal relations is hard, yo.

How was it suggested you avoid this in the future?

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

My fingers are set to vibrate


JawnV6 posted:

How was it suggested you avoid this in the future?

This all took place over text chat, and I reviewed my own text; there was a pretty clear opening for someone to read things in a way I didn't intend. Especially since the conversation was by default somewhat adversarial -- I was challenging their technical decisions to see how well grounded they were. Which is something that happens routinely when such decisions are made: "I see you did X; why didn't you do Y?" "Because Y would require doing A and B which we don't otherwise need, and we won't get into trouble with X for at least a year." But I'm used to having those conversations in person, where it's harder to accidentally disrespect someone.

So add "communication" to the list of things that are hard.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


Everything is hard except the technical, which is actually the least challenging part of working as an engineer, I've found in my 4 short years.

wilderthanmild
Jun 21, 2010

Posting shit


Grimey Drawer

How valuable is having experience at a big recognizable tech company like Microsoft, Amazon, etc?

I know there isn't a straight simple answer and even on my two examples the value is likely very different. The IT department at my previous company had a pretty big downsizing, including myself. I'm not hurting for money immediately due to decent savings and some severance pay. Prior to the downsizing I had been planning to apply to some of the major tech giants. If that didn't work out to more senior positions locally, as my previous company had no potential for growth in salary or role.

The downsizing has messed with my timeline a little bit. I panicked a little at first and started applying to local jobs, especially with a shocking number of recruiters knowing about my downsizing and contact info within hours of my termination. I have some decent opportunities here with even some solid lead and senior type positions. A few are trying to rush the process as much as possible.

Part of me still wants to apply and make a serious attempt at some major tech companies. Realistically that could take weeks to months compared to local companies that are trying to go from first contact to offer in less than a week.

Is it worth it to take the risk and pursue working at the larger companies? Is it silly to consider going after mid or even entry level positions with these kind of companies over more senior positions with local companies?

wilderthanmild fucked around with this message at Nov 14, 2017 around 20:40

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


wilderthanmild posted:

Is it worth it to take the risk

What risk is there in applying to jobs, other than your current employer finding out? And in the case ithey term you for it do you really want to work for a company like that?

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





Good Will Hrunting posted:

What risk is there in applying to jobs, other than your current employer finding out? And in the case ithey term you for it do you really want to work for a company like that?

I think the suggested risk is of the "bird in the hand" variety.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

My fingers are set to vibrate


Big companies give you (typically) larger-scale projects, but more importantly IMO they bring you into contact with a broader range of people. You can make contacts at a big company that you can't at a small one, and learn from a wider breadth of experiences.

Generally I'd say that if you can cope with being in a more corporate / rigid environment, then you should prefer working at a large company over a small one.

wilderthanmild
Jun 21, 2010

Posting shit


Grimey Drawer

Good Will Hrunting posted:

What risk is there in applying to jobs, other than your current employer finding out? And in the case ithey term you for it do you really want to work for a company like that?

I don't have a current job due to the downsizing mentioned. Sorry if that wasn't clear from the way I worded it. It's more the risk of spending a significant time without a job/passing up good local opportunities. It's also whether or not it's dumb to think about entry/mid level positions with those companies when I am working on more senior positions locally.

Skandranon
Sep 6, 2008
fucking stupid, dont listen to me

wilderthanmild posted:

How valuable is having experience at a big recognizable tech company like Microsoft, Amazon, etc?

I know there isn't a straight simple answer and even on my two examples the value is likely very different. The IT department at my previous company had a pretty big downsizing, including myself. I'm not hurting for money immediately due to decent savings and some severance pay. Prior to the downsizing I had been planning to apply to some of the major tech giants. If that didn't work out to more senior positions locally, as my previous company had no potential for growth in salary or role.

The downsizing has messed with my timeline a little bit. I panicked a little at first and started applying to local jobs, especially with a shocking number of recruiters knowing about my downsizing and contact info within hours of my termination. I have some decent opportunities here with even some solid lead and senior type positions. A few are trying to rush the process as much as possible.

Part of me still wants to apply and make a serious attempt at some major tech companies. Realistically that could take weeks to months compared to local companies that are trying to go from first contact to offer in less than a week.

Is it worth it to take the risk and pursue working at the larger companies? Is it silly to consider going after mid or even entry level positions with these kind of companies over more senior positions with local companies?

I'd say apply at the big companies if you think you'd like to work there. You can also take a good local job now. If, god forbid, Microsoft gets back to you with a better offer, well, then you can deal with the problem of 2 good situations to chose from. Worst case scenario is you tell some people you've known for a few weeks/months that you are leaving.

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





What languages etc do the big names usually use? Google is what, C++ typically, Facebook PHP, Amazon Java?

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


wilderthanmild posted:

I don't have a current job due to the downsizing mentioned. Sorry if that wasn't clear from the way I worded it. It's more the risk of spending a significant time without a job/passing up good local opportunities. It's also whether or not it's dumb to think about entry/mid level positions with those companies when I am working on more senior positions locally.

My bad - should have read more carefully. Too busy being my own product manager making Jira tickets for myself. Speaking of which, have you folks ever worked somewhere with 0 "scrum" or "scrum like" practices? Like, we just have a giant board of tickets. We do no planning, grooming, discussion or anything and frequently make our own tickets. There are no sprints or points assigned because my boss things it's a "waste" but myself and peers think it's to reduce transparency. Our new team lead is all for doing a bi-weekly retro and planning, which I like.

New Yorp New Yorp
Jul 18, 2003

Only in Kenya.


Pillbug

Jaded Burnout posted:

What languages etc do the big names usually use? Google is what, C++ typically, Facebook PHP, Amazon Java?

They all have a lot of different languages in use and they usually don't care what kind of language background you have as long as you have good CS fundamentals.

Mniot
May 22, 2003
Not the one you know

Skandranon posted:

Worst case scenario is you tell some people you've known for a few weeks/months that you are leaving.

People worry about "burning bridges" but getting hired and then immediately quitting is just not a big enough deal for anyone to remember you. When I think of people I would never want to work with again, it's all people I worked with for enough time to really build up some resentment.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

My fingers are set to vibrate


Jaded Burnout posted:

What languages etc do the big names usually use? Google is what, C++ typically, Facebook PHP, Amazon Java?

All these companies use a large number of languages, depending on what job they're doing.

Also re: the jobhunt, don't let companies rush you. They're trying to trick you into not negotiating or waiting for a better offer to come around -- putting time pressure on someone is a super-common negotiating tactic. Very few companies are actually so pressed for time that they need you to come on-board in the next week or two, and the ones that are, you probably don't want to work for anyway because they suck at planning their headcount requirements. Odds are if you tell them you won't be ready to give a response by whatever arbitrary deadline they've set, they'll say "okay, just let us know when you do."

Eggnogium
Jun 1, 2010

Never give an inch! Hnnnghhhhhh!

wilderthanmild posted:

I don't have a current job due to the downsizing mentioned. Sorry if that wasn't clear from the way I worded it. It's more the risk of spending a significant time without a job/passing up good local opportunities. It's also whether or not it's dumb to think about entry/mid level positions with those companies when I am working on more senior positions locally.

I think you'd be dumb to consider an entry level position. Those positions are for college hires, even at the big companies. Mid-level I can't say: how long have you been in the industry?

Portland Sucks
Dec 21, 2004
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

Good Will Hrunting posted:

My bad - should have read more carefully. Too busy being my own product manager making Jira tickets for myself. Speaking of which, have you folks ever worked somewhere with 0 "scrum" or "scrum like" practices? Like, we just have a giant board of tickets. We do no planning, grooming, discussion or anything and frequently make our own tickets. There are no sprints or points assigned because my boss things it's a "waste" but myself and peers think it's to reduce transparency. Our new team lead is all for doing a bi-weekly retro and planning, which I like.

We have a no project management process at all kind of thing. I get told "here's the general idea of what we want you to do" and then I go collect requirements and do the project. The process is up to me. It's probably a terrible way to do things. I'm trying to leave.

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





New Yorp New Yorp posted:

They all have a lot of different languages in use

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

All these companies use a large number of languages, depending on what job they're doing.

Sure, but I was under the impression they typically favoured a couple, or is that just what it looks like from the outside?

New Yorp New Yorp posted:

they usually don't care what kind of language background you have as long as you have good CS fundamentals.

gently caress. Is this about big O notation. Do I need to know "algorithms". I'm a web developer we glue together TCP services for a living.

Portland Sucks
Dec 21, 2004
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

Jaded Burnout posted:

Do I need to know "algorithms".

For interviews? Yes.

Everyone is going to tell you to read Cracking Coding Interview and do practice problems on hacker rank.

wilderthanmild
Jun 21, 2010

Posting shit


Grimey Drawer

Eggnogium posted:

I think you'd be dumb to consider an entry level position. Those positions are for college hires, even at the big companies. Mid-level I can't say: how long have you been in the industry?

6 years and some change.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

My fingers are set to vibrate


Jaded Burnout posted:

Sure, but I was under the impression they typically favoured a couple, or is that just what it looks like from the outside?
Just what it looks like from the outside. There's tens of thousands of developers at Google, they're going to have heavy use in a huge number of languages.


quote:

gently caress. Is this about big O notation. Do I need to know "algorithms". I'm a web developer we glue together TCP services for a living.

Know algorithms.

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Eggnogium
Jun 1, 2010

Never give an inch! Hnnnghhhhhh!

wilderthanmild posted:

6 years and some change.

In that case I think picking between pursuing each company's mid-level vs. senior position just depends on you. Do you have experience designing and maintaining systems that scale? Do you feel like you've been around long enough to recognize issues and potential projects before a manager hands them to you? Then shoot for senior. Definitely, definitely don't do entry level though.

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