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muon
Sep 13, 2008


FWIW I've not felt any pressure to work over 40 hours/week at Google. I know I'm not going to get promoted as fast as a result, but work-life balance >>>> money (and even my L3 (entry-level) total comp is way over what I was making elsewhere).

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minato
Jun 7, 2004

cutty cain't hang, say 7-up.

Taco Defender

Good Will Hrunting posted:

Sometimes I have imposter syndrome where I don't necessarily feel like I'm stupider or worse at the tech stuff but that I'm worse at accomplishing work productively for some reason and I'm not doing enough, whether it's my fault or not.
One of my poorest abilities is self-organization. I'd always relied on a product manager to tell us what to do and to keep things moving forward, and I just focused on delivering the code. But at BigTechCo everyone was expected to be a great coder and also be a highly-disciplined self-manager, because more often than not there were no product managers. And yet... this was never tested for in the interview process.

My colleagues were such successful engineers, I assumed they must also be great at self-organization. It turns out they weren't, but were certainly better at focusing on work which looked productive.

(The trick to impostor syndrome is apparently to get some small wins under your belt, which gives a good confidence boost.)

quote:

It makes me insanely stressed lately, but hearing things in this thread humanizes experienced devs who have, for the most part, felt superhuman to me at times in understand of large scale systems or breadth and depth of knowledge and the like.
I was in awe of some of the engineers I worked with. But over time I realized they were far from perfect either. The one-man-SWAT-team guy who could debug and fix any breaking system in record time also wrote the most atrocious code and tested everything in prod. The guy who wrote long complex bash scripts using all manner of esoteric bash features did that because he'd never bothered to learn Python. The self-taught genius who was an oracle of knowledge about every language never delivered on anything.

(The rare engineers who seemed to be great at everything often turned out to be socially awkward or obnoxious)

Ultimately I found that it was unhealthy to be comparing myself to everyone else. I'd wanted to know what was "normal" to check that I was at least reaching that level, but I couldn't get a grasp on it. People just have strengths and weaknesses, end of story. It's better to self-assess and work on improving yourself than to be anxious that you're not comparable to a "superhuman" engineer.

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

muon posted:

FWIW I've not felt any pressure to work over 40 hours/week at Google. I know I'm not going to get promoted as fast as a result, but work-life balance >>>> money (and even my L3 (entry-level) total comp is way over what I was making elsewhere).

Same. My manager has encouraged our team to let him know if anyone feels like they need to work more than 40 per week so we can prioritize the work differently and take some pressure off.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

My fingers are set to vibrate


My team at BigTechCo includes a dev who hates writing tests and will stubbornly argue every step of the way if you ask for them, a dev who can bang out prototypes in record time but gives little thought to turning those prototypes into long-term reusable code, and a dev who is a genius with databases and not much else. They're all definitely above-average, competent people, and I get along with all of them, but they're not shining golden gods of software engineering. Nobody is perfect.

Amusingly, despite the fact that pretty much every team at the company is going to have people like this, impostor syndrome is alive and well and routinely referenced in internal social media.

mrmcd
Feb 22, 2003



So should I be the 5th Google BigTechCo person in a row to post about how it's actually filled with very good if mortal engineers?

Just learn CS fundamentals well, practice for interviews, make $$$, get fed food. Don't spend all your time being a memegen shitposting misc lord.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


Google was basically one of two places I interviewed last time that asked algo/ds stuff (the other being where I ended up cause my boss has a Google erection, we use all GCP poo poo) and honestly I felt a little over-preped for those type of interviews. The second Google interview was the worst interview experience of my life, I literally couldn't even have a convo with my interviewer cause they didn't understand my questions, which I'm sure sounds racist but actually felt really lovely after I preped for those types of interviews and couldn't understand the broken English sentences he copy and pasted into a browser before 45 minutes of basically silence. It was a pretty trivial single pass 2D array question once I realized the "trick" which was after like 25 minutes of getting zero clarification. I'm sure it sounds like sour grapes but it was a huge turnoff.

Paolomania
Apr 26, 2006



mrmcd posted:

So should I be the 5th Google BigTechCo person in a row to post about how it's actually filled with very good if mortal engineers?

Just learn CS fundamentals well, practice for interviews, make $$$, get fed food. Don't spend all your time being a memegen shitposting misc lord.



porque no los dos?

Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008


Shitposting@FB > memegen

minato
Jun 7, 2004

cutty cain't hang, say 7-up.

Taco Defender

Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:

Shitposting@FB > memegen

not surprising considering all the money Palmer Luckey invested into it

Love Stole the Day
Nov 4, 2012


minato posted:

I was in awe of some of the engineers I worked with. But over time I realized they were far from perfect either. The one-man-SWAT-team guy who could debug and fix any breaking system in record time also wrote the most atrocious code and tested everything in prod. The guy who wrote long complex bash scripts using all manner of esoteric bash features did that because he'd never bothered to learn Python. The self-taught genius who was an oracle of knowledge about every language never delivered on anything.

(The rare engineers who seemed to be great at everything often turned out to be socially awkward or obnoxious)

Ultimately I found that it was unhealthy to be comparing myself to everyone else. I'd wanted to know what was "normal" to check that I was at least reaching that level, but I couldn't get a grasp on it. People just have strengths and weaknesses, end of story. It's better to self-assess and work on improving yourself than to be anxious that you're not comparable to a "superhuman" engineer.

Your post rings really true for me. I had a loosely similar experience, but in a very different context: growing up and getting involved in the modding and scripting communities for all of the various games that I had played over the years.

My problem, in hindsight, was that I looked up to absolutely everybody around me in whatever community/chatroom I found myself because I was always the youngest person there. I had felt like everybody around me were 20 and 30-somethings who were way better at this stuff than I'll ever be. So when I'd show something that I had made, there'd always be a few people looking down their noses and making off-hand comments like, "Ugh your scripting is poo poo, get off my lawn. You made this with X language/library/technique? Rofl, Y language/library/technique is way better. Do you not even know what [__programming concept__] is?" you can bet that young, impressionable me would take the feedback super duper seriously like Bill Gates just gave me career advice and so I'd just drop everything to go try and re-learn how to do the exact same poo poo but now in that new language or library flavor-of-the-month bullshit. Then I'd come back with the new thing, someone else would give the same "feedback", and of course young, impressionable me would start running another lap all over again.

In hindsight those people were a bunch of obnoxious assholes but they had childhood me running in circles for years. I didn't know anybody who did programming/computer stuff irl at all where I grew up (i.e. rural suburb, where anything computer-related is just goofy nerd poo poo) and so I looked up in awe at anybody I met online who pretended to know stuff about it. It wasn't until one particularly bad incident with a guy in one modding community who was really mad that I had fixed an important bug for a popular mod that he had made in the past but was being lazy about fixing that I sort of broke out of the spell and realized what kind of people I had been actually looking up to for all of these years. It's one of those "wish I had a time machine" situations.

Then in University, which was the first time I had ever met anyone irl who knew anything about programming, they wouldn't even consider giving me any placement credit. I took their "CS 1" course and felt like they were teaching me how to bang rocks together whilst somehow managing to be smug assholes about it, so I never even considered CS as a major and just chose Math instead. Then when I graduate, I apply for programming jobs... but it's 2010, there are no entry-level jobs for recent graduates, and every relevant job advertisement has "CS major" in the requirements. Welp, looks like it'll never happen. It's only now, years later, that I'm trying to give it another go.

If I could go back and do it again, I would just ignore that entire scripting/modding scene altogether and just focus on making lovely software with one particular language or library without ever looking back. I would probably have been way better off.

Welp, that's my wall of text. Thanks for reading!

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





Any thoughts on going down the data scientist route? Lots of need for technical people with maths/stats backgrounds in both the large data and now AI-of-the-month specialties. I know a number who've learned more mainstream programming on the job because there's always some of that in it.

lifg
Dec 4, 2000



Muldoon

A lot of professional programmers are math majors. Donít preemptively disqualify yourself from a job posting just because it says CS Degree, your degree is close enough.

Just apply. Worst case scenario, they donít reply.

fantastic in plastic
Jun 15, 2007

Wow, she's saying some profound stuff. I bet she's read The Hobbit.


A lot of professional programmers have no degree at all, or a degree in something not at all related to STEM. This is further encouragement not to worry about it and Just Apply.

Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life


Can I get some critiques on my resume? Some of the wording in my current job feels a little weird but I'm not sure how else to covey some of the information.

Also can't decide if I should shrink it to one page, beef up the current job a bit to make two pages more appreciable, or leave it as is (since it's the start of a new own section, and it's mostly the buzzword filter).

Thanks!

Mr. Crow fucked around with this message at Dec 6, 2017 around 02:17

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





Mr. Crow posted:

Can I get some critiques on my resume? Some of the wording in my current job feels a little weird but I'm not sure how else to covey some of the information.

I've only read this bit but it seems fine, notwithstanding the slightly strange "; as well as," in the last point.

I think you did a good job of distinguishing your style of devops from the buzzword style, it's a contentious topic among teams.

Bruegels Fuckbooks
Sep 14, 2004

Now, listen - I know the two of you are very different from each other in a lot of ways, but you have to understand that as far as Grandpa's concerned, you're both pieces of shit! Yeah. I can prove it mathematically.

fantastic in plastic posted:

A lot of professional programmers have no degree at all, or a degree in something not at all related to STEM. This is further encouragement not to worry about it and Just Apply.

according to linkedin 50-75% of all job seekers who are interested in the mid-career senior software engineer jobs that I'm interested in have masters degrees.

leper khan
Dec 28, 2010
Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:

according to linkedin 50-75% of all job seekers who are interested in the mid-career senior software engineer jobs that I'm interested in have masters degrees.

Lots of companies pay for people to get their masters..

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


How do you give a not-positive performance review of your senior when you fear immediate retaliation?

RubberBands Hurt
Dec 13, 2004

seriously, wtf


Good Will Hrunting posted:

How do you give a not-positive performance review of your senior when you fear immediate retaliation?

You don't, and when people ask about it, say this person has too much control over your working life.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


RubberBands Hurt posted:

You don't, and when people ask about it, say this person has too much control over your working life.

So bring it up to HR when I'm prompted for it? It's not like it would be at all surprising to expose him as toxic, I just don't want to lose my job (just yet).

vonnegutt
Aug 7, 2006
Hobocamp.


Good Will Hrunting posted:

So bring it up to HR when I'm prompted for it? It's not like it would be at all surprising to expose him as toxic, I just don't want to lose my job (just yet).

If your HR is any good, mentioning that you fear retaliation from a superior should raise all kinds of klaxxons and probably prompt an investigation. However, if they are bad / toothless / tend to drag their feet about this kind of thing, it could make your relationship even worse. Do you know if they suck or not?

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


vonnegutt posted:

If your HR is any good, mentioning that you fear retaliation from a superior should raise all kinds of klaxxons and probably prompt an investigation. However, if they are bad / toothless / tend to drag their feet about this kind of thing, it could make your relationship even worse. Do you know if they suck or not?

I only speak to the HR girl in my office, she handles mostly recruiting and some other HR stuff while working closely and having a strong relationship with the head of HR, but she's had chats with me about how HR knows my boss is toxic and tells me if I ever feel uncomfortable to reach out to let her know and she'd provide the bridge for me. This was all prompted by something unrelated to my team - I didn't go to her, she reached out to me. Also someone quit my team and another request ed a transfer (successfully) because they cited not being able to work with my boss.

I just.. don't know if it's worth it? Might as well just take the bonus money when it clears and look elsewhere, but that feels like avoidance and not helping, especially because our new lead is great and really trying.

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



Pillbug

Good Will Hrunting posted:

I only speak to the HR girl in my office, she handles mostly recruiting and some other HR stuff while working closely and having a strong relationship with the head of HR, but she's had chats with me about how HR knows my boss is toxic and tells me if I ever feel uncomfortable to reach out to let her know and she'd provide the bridge for me. This was all prompted by something unrelated to my team - I didn't go to her, she reached out to me. Also someone quit my team and another request ed a transfer (successfully) because they cited not being able to work with my boss.

I just.. don't know if it's worth it? Might as well just take the bonus money when it clears and look elsewhere, but that feels like avoidance and not helping, especially because our new lead is great and really trying.

So it costs you nothing and you've seen it have tangible, positive results but you're still not sure if you want to bother?

TheCog
Jul 30, 2012

I AM ZEPA AND I CLAIM THESE LANDS BY RIGHT OF CONQUEST


Good Will Hrunting posted:

I only speak to the HR girl in my office, she handles mostly recruiting and some other HR stuff while working closely and having a strong relationship with the head of HR, but she's had chats with me about how HR knows my boss is toxic and tells me if I ever feel uncomfortable to reach out to let her know and she'd provide the bridge for me. This was all prompted by something unrelated to my team - I didn't go to her, she reached out to me. Also someone quit my team and another request ed a transfer (successfully) because they cited not being able to work with my boss.

I just.. don't know if it's worth it? Might as well just take the bonus money when it clears and look elsewhere, but that feels like avoidance and not helping, especially because our new lead is great and really trying.

I'm probably the worst person to be giving advice in this thread, but I have dealt with a lot of nerds, so I'm going to give my two cents and people can yell at me if i'm out of line.

Most programers i know are afraid of confrontation, and that is the reason why change can't happen. They'd rather not deal with the effort and awkwardness and uncomfortablness of it, even knowing that on the other side there are greener pastures. loving someone over though HR is a form of confrontation, but it makes people deeply uncomfortable, which leads to avoidance, which leads to a toxic boss and your team collapsing. If you believe working with an awesome lead who's really trying to be worth the discomfort, and you think HR is actually likely to help, then you absolutely should do it, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you in the moment. The reason is simple: if your HR is good, there's no way it leads back to you, so your worst case scenario is nothing changes and your boss is non the wiser, the best case scenario is you get your awesome tech lead and a good team on a project you care about.

Beyond that, looking for jobs is kind of poo poo, and I highly suggest trying to fix things before trying to bail. There's always time to bail.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


Munkeymon posted:

So it costs you nothing and you've seen it have tangible, positive results but you're still not sure if you want to bother?

Well, the two people who were transferred were parent company employees before the acquisition. I was hired directly by this team to work out of the office where this team is based. Otherwise, I wouldn't be on this team now I think.

Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life


Jaded Burnout posted:

I've only read this bit but it seems fine, notwithstanding the slightly strange "; as well as," in the last point.

I think you did a good job of distinguishing your style of devops from the buzzword style, it's a contentious topic among teams.

Thanks!

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



Pillbug

Good Will Hrunting posted:

Well, the two people who were transferred were parent company employees before the acquisition. I was hired directly by this team to work out of the office where this team is based. Otherwise, I wouldn't be on this team now I think.

OK? HR got them what they wanted apparently without a huge fuss or drama, right? IDK why you're trying to talk yourself out of it because you haven't said anything that would indicate it might be anything but good for you and your team to give an honest review, hopefully with documentation backing you up, straight to the HR woman. The fact that you guys got bought by a bigger company probably means you're even safer because they'll have more mature processes for dealing with the situation.

vonnegutt
Aug 7, 2006
Hobocamp.


Good Will Hrunting posted:

...she's had chats with me about how HR knows my boss is toxic and tells me if I ever feel uncomfortable to reach out to let her know and she'd provide the bridge for me. This was all prompted by something unrelated to my team - I didn't go to her, she reached out to me. Also someone quit my team and another request ed a transfer (successfully) because they cited not being able to work with my boss.

Honestly from this it sounds like they are trying to build a case against your toxic boss and need corroboration. They've already lost one team member to this person, it is bad for the company to lose good talent due to one middle manager.

This seems like a best-case scenario for you to be honest and benefit from that honesty.

Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008


Good Will Hrunting posted:

I just.. don't know if it's worth it? Might as well just take the bonus money when it clears and look elsewhere, but that feels like avoidance and not helping, especially because our new lead is great and really trying.
If your HR has positive indications of addressing it and wanting to address it further...yes. Conflict avoidance is the opposite of helping. If you're going to consider jetting anyways, you have nothing to lose.

baquerd
Jul 2, 2007
I'M A FUCKING IDIOT



GWH, you're on your way to Goon_in_a_well.txt. Take the rope ladder that's being lowered to you by HR.

Love Stole the Day
Nov 4, 2012


baquerd posted:

GWH, you're on your way to Goon_in_a_well.txt. Take the rope ladder that's being lowered to you by HR.

They had one of those in the Navy thread in the GIP board a couple of weeks ago, it was one of the best few pages I've ever read on this forum, pissing and everything. Your post reminded me of it.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


Thanks for the pushing. Perf reviews aren't until January but this gives me even more time to build my case and (likely) gather even more tangible examples of his missteps leading to setbacks and eventual blame shifting. Trip report to come, at some point.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It is time for your viscera to see the light of day!

Jaded Burnout posted:

Any thoughts on going down the data scientist route? Lots of need for technical people with maths/stats backgrounds in both the large data and now AI-of-the-month specialties. I know a number who've learned more mainstream programming on the job because there's always some of that in it.

You're probably better off asking in the data science thread.

Paolomania
Apr 26, 2006



TheCog posted:

I'm probably the worst person to be giving advice in this thread, but I have dealt with a lot of nerds, so I'm going to give my two cents and people can yell at me if i'm out of line.

Most programers i know are afraid of confrontation, and that is the reason why change can't happen. They'd rather not deal with the effort and awkwardness and uncomfortablness of it, even knowing that on the other side there are greener pastures. loving someone over though HR is a form of confrontation, but it makes people deeply uncomfortable, which leads to avoidance, which leads to a toxic boss and your team collapsing. If you believe working with an awesome lead who's really trying to be worth the discomfort, and you think HR is actually likely to help, then you absolutely should do it, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you in the moment. The reason is simple: if your HR is good, there's no way it leads back to you, so your worst case scenario is nothing changes and your boss is non the wiser, the best case scenario is you get your awesome tech lead and a good team on a project you care about.

Beyond that, looking for jobs is kind of poo poo, and I highly suggest trying to fix things before trying to bail. There's always time to bail.

Wasn't there some whole thing around the toxic culture at Uber where HR had for years been getting complaints logged against certain people but they were untouchable due to being "high performers" or something to that effect? This kind of precedent doesn't seem like a good indicator for using the HR channel.

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





ultrafilter posted:

You're probably better off asking in the data science thread.

Are you talking to me or the person I was suggesting it to?

Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008


Paolomania posted:

Wasn't there some whole thing around the toxic culture at Uber where HR had for years been getting complaints logged against certain people but they were untouchable due to being "high performers" or something to that effect? This kind of precedent doesn't seem like a good indicator for using the HR channel.

That was visible, catastrophic, and yes, terrible of Uber. But I wonder what you mean by "precedent", since I suspect the existence of HR departments and tech companies somewhat predates Uber.

HardDiskD
May 6, 2009

HaHAHhehehehuhehahehhahahhaue



Grimey Drawer

Paolomania posted:

Wasn't there some whole thing around the toxic culture at Uber where HR had for years been getting complaints logged against certain people but they were untouchable due to being "high performers" or something to that effect? This kind of precedent doesn't seem like a good indicator for using the HR channel.

I think that's more of an issue with Uber's HR than HR in other companies in general.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

My fingers are set to vibrate


Though it doesn't change the fact that HR works for the company, not for you. In an ideal world their interests align with yours, because problems you face are ultimately problems that the company faces. In a cynical world (such as in Uber) they'll be working directly contrary to your interests. My gut says that most companies fall more towards the ideal end of the spectrum, but I don't exactly have statistics to back that up.

pigdog
Apr 23, 2004


If a toxic manager drives away talent, then your interests are aligned.

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HardDiskD
May 6, 2009

HaHAHhehehehuhehahehhahahhaue



Grimey Drawer

I'm looking for a specific website that I remember seeing in one of these jobs threads, but I can't remember its name. What I remember is that it aggregated jobs from three websites, Stack Overflow, Hacker News and some other website. Does it ring a bell for anyone?


Found it: https://whoishiring.io/

HardDiskD fucked around with this message at Nov 23, 2017 around 23:49

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