Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«247 »
  • Post
  • Reply
Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


Generally check mail Sunday to see if there are any follow ups to things that needed answers so I can get my questions in to minimize product turnaround. Anyways, I guess Iíll try to give feedback still. This is a very dangerous line Iím tiptoeing but getting laid off is the worst case scenario and that might actually be a good outcome.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


If they lay you off/fire you for questioning your manager, isnít that retaliation?

csammis
Aug 26, 2003

Mental Institution

Pollyanna posted:

If they lay you off/fire you for questioning your manager, isnít that retaliation?

No. The EEOC definition of "retaliation" is punishment for engaging in a legally protected activity like filing a complaint about harassment. An example pulled straight from the training videos I've watched on the subject: Jane complains to HR that Bob grabbed her rear end in a meeting. After the complaint is filed Ned, Jane's boss and Bob's friend, suddenly demotes Jane without any prior warning or evidence of poor workmanship on Jane's part. That's a retaliatory action.

I think some states have different nuances to it but "questioning your manager" is almost certainly not retaliation in the legal sense wherever you are in the US.

edit: to be clear, getting laid off for questioning your manager is the colloquial definition of retaliation absolutely, but not the "It Matters To HR" legal definition.

edit2: also to be clear I'm not a lawyer and Kansas, where I work, is not famous for its extraordinarily great worker's rights laws.

csammis fucked around with this message at Dec 3, 2017 around 23:09

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


The way my team and the way my manager's boss oversees him (he doesn't) makes it so that nobody would have any idea if my boss was telling the truth should he go to can me and say "Hrunting isn't meeting performance standards we need to drop this dead weight". I've never gotten a negative review but with the last guy on my team, he was blindsided by a super negative review days after questioning my manager about something. I have, essentially, no way to prove I'm doing well at the moment. Merely a way to prove that my boss isn't meeting the team's needs or standards.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


After replying to my manager and pointing out that I had already had a solution he had just rehashed (and didn't answer my question around when his work would be done so I could continue on my story but I didn't even mention that) he gave me an insanely passive aggressive and dodgy answer. I then followed up with another reply, non-threatening or challenging or anything just explaining why I left certain details off the ticket and he once again completely ignored everything I said besides for quoting one sentence that he could spin around to try to make me look like I was in the wrong, once again in a super passive aggressive fashion, avoiding any sort of accountability that he's far behind OR acknowledging anything I said previously. Then he scheduled a 1 on 1 with me tomorrow afternoon.

My only question is do I contact HR before the meeting so when I absolutely, definitely need to contact them after the meeting I don't like reactive and instead look proactive?

Mao Zedong Thot
Oct 16, 2008





Nap Ghost

I don't know why you're doing anything except looking for a new job. You can *never* fix a hosed up place, all you can ever do is make it worse for yourself. Delete the document, stop talking to everyone about your issues, smile lots and ASAP.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


InfrastructureWeek posted:

I don't know why you're doing anything except looking for a new job. You can *never* fix a hosed up place, all you can ever do is make it worse for yourself. Delete the document, stop talking to everyone about your issues, smile lots and ASAP.

I've gotten this side and I've gotten the "try to fix things" side. This isn't just a team problem, it's a company problem when something to this magnitude is allowed to even exist. Obviously not unique to my situation, but the first time I've encountered this much toxicity.

Plus I really don't think I'll get much traction conducting a job search around the holidays but I've long started prepping again.

Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008


I mean, it does sound broken, and you should be looking for something else. On the other hand, how much do you really have to lose fighting the manager's shittiness on your way out? You're the ultimate arbiter of that, and if you've got backup, then maybe you can step up and at least get the guy on paper as hurting the company. Maybe it won't be until later that poo poo hits the fan and he fails at a critical juncture and gets fired because he can't be protected. Without documentation, that's gonna be a lot harder to do.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


In case you're wondering, that one-on-one is most certainly going to be some sort of arm-twisting to either shut you up or prime you for firing. Either way, you should be getting out of there ASAP, and telling as many people as you can to stay away.

Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008


Pollyanna posted:

In case you're wondering, that one-on-one is most certainly going to be some sort of arm-twisting to either shut you up or prime you for firing. Either way, you should be getting out of there ASAP, and telling as many people as you can to stay away.

If that's the case, then having HR around for that could be a disaster for the manager. If someone is in a spot where leaving doesn't matter and the only thing to lose in that situation is the manager's own standing...

But also that would definitely be raising the stakes. To the point of it being a company problem - well, sometimes they gotta get educated by the school of hard knocks instead of actually being smart about things. vOv

Mniot
May 22, 2003
Not the one you know

Good Will Hrunting posted:

I've gotten this side and I've gotten the "try to fix things" side. This isn't just a team problem, it's a company problem when something to this magnitude is allowed to even exist. Obviously not unique to my situation, but the first time I've encountered this much toxicity.

I think the "try to fix things" reactions you've gotten is that it doesn't sound like that much toxicity. My impression is that your manager is garbage, but if you could get rid of him you'd be happy with the job. If that's the case, then the question is "how possible is it that one manager quits/transfers/is fired if you complain a bit?" You then described an HR person fishing for negative stories about your manager after multiple good people transferred out of the group. So that sounds like "quite possible!"

On the other hand, if it turns out that $manager owns 51% of the company stock and will never be fired, there's no point. Or if most of the people in your group are awful, then you'd hate work even without your manager. Or if you're so burned out from anger that even if he was fired you'd still be a wreck.

Also, I'm cheering for some confrontation because engineers are so frequently passive and hosed over for it. And because if Susan Fowler can (eventually) get her CEO fired anything seems possible.

You gotta judge for yourself what's a reasonable risk and a worthwhile reward, though.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


Jira today was as confrontational as Iíve ever been in the workplace but Iím not about to sit around and let some goober spin every word I say into negatives towards me. His behavior is incompetent at best and sociopathic at worst.

My guess is tomorrow heíll suggest my performance is not up to par for working on his team (same thing that happened with the last employees) and threaten me somehow for questioning him. Maybe some sort of written performance plan that I obviously will not sign. Whatever, itís all part of his act.

Iím going to speak with HR in the morning before the meeting, but also obviously ramping up with the job search prep and all that bullshit because my employment status is a volatile variable at the moment.

Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life


My impression of all the "talk with HR" suggestions was that it should be in addition to looking for new employment. If you need to talk to HR about that (the general issue of poo poo management) I arbitrarily feel you have a 50/50 of getting fired vs. positive outcome so it's a given that you should have a backup in place and it as a last resort. If it works out, great and choose to stay, If it doesn't, hopefully you already have another job on the line or are close to a replacement.

I think specifically in your case it sounds like your odds are (were) better to have hr do something but the alternative is still a very real possibility.

I don't know why you're purposely butting heads now, but it sounds like from how you've described everything you're setting yourself up to get fired. I think you're choice now is continue to talk to HR in which case you'll probably get fired (he's going to know who complained or at the least assume it is you) but possibly make things better for your coworkers, or just drop everything and smile and make this rear end in a top hat happy for as long as you can.

Either way you need to be actively looking for new employment.

Mr. Crow fucked around with this message at Dec 4, 2017 around 18:49

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


We got into a literal shouting match, so uhhh yeah details later but poster who wanted confrontation: you got it.

Tres Burritos
Sep 3, 2009



Next time live tweet it.

CPColin
Sep 9, 2003

Big ol' smile.

Grimey Drawer

^^^

Meanwhile, today I just clicked "Don't show again" in Visual Studio's nagging to set up continuous integration for like the tenth time.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


quote:

Him: "It's been a while since we had a 1 on and 1 and I feel that you're not progressing quickly enough since we talked about (some story that took me more than he thought it should have because I was waiting on him + ops + other people) that story in our last discussion." :proceeds to raise a bunch of non-issues on my end that I have literally sitting in my document as examples of him ignoring me or product ignoring me, with links to Jiras and Slacks etc:

(Author's note - I told him exactly why it took so long and he said he would see how he could address certain issues)

Me: "Well, to start off, these are issues that I had a few problems tackling for a number of reasons. (I begin to list x, y, z). These issues are ongoing with the team, and I would really appreciate some insight into how we can solve them together. (His face turns beat red and he gets super angry) And I really don't appreciate or agree with you questioning my ongoing performance when I've raised these issues a bunch of times and gotten absolutely no support or help in solving them at a higher level".

Him: "These are not valid reasons, you need to figure these things out yourself. I expect everyone on this team to put in that extra effort and not be spoon fed blah blah blah"

Me: "I'm not talking about code, I'm talking about product specs, answers to questions from business owners, etc. I'm talking about where this fits in in our system architecture as a whole. I'm talking about lack of a process to make sure the team is properly grooming working evolving our development cycle.. blah blah"

Him: "Well I've NEVER been a small company where we had enough resources to tackle things the way you're talking about!! If you can't handle our modus operandi then maybe you aren't a good fit for this team environment! This is MY opinion that you're not doing well and we'll have to meet at some level that you need to improve! Besides if someone asks you to design an airplane engine, do you expect to get every detail? Engineers have to..."

Me: "No, but you generally have to understand inputs and outputs available and certain restricting factors, and it's probably ideal to have a high level understanding of flight... This is the level of granularity I'm not getting"

Then he sorta tried to apologize for getting angry and turned face a little bit and we talked constructively for 20 minutes about things to fix.

I'm obviously looking, this just makes my search way more aggressive. Probably have about 4 weeks, minimum, before getting fired. He was insanely nice to me walking back to the stairs and in our room

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Tell HR, tell your coworkers, and tell anyone that comes in to interview. Then leave.

rt4
Feb 19, 2008


Grimey Drawer

So did you meet with HR beforehand? Did you tell HR there's going to be a meeting where he blames you for everything and then has you fired a couple weeks later like he did with literally everyone else?

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


HR is aware that I would like to speak with them, yes, though my main train of thought right now is -> do enough to get my paycheck -> leave at 5:30 to go lift weights and eat dinner -> spend my evenings prepping for whiteboarding again -> poo poo out resumes when I'm back from holiday.

piratepilates
Mar 28, 2004

So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it.


What are some ideas for interviewing QA people?

Let's say that it's more for manual QA, instead of automating tests.

Main idea I have is to create a simple but lovely app (let's say a todo app) that has a bunch of bugs and poor usability, and let the candidate loose and have them just play around and generate ideas on how to improve the app.

Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008


Good Will Hrunting posted:

HR is aware that I would like to speak with them, yes, though my main train of thought right now is -> do enough to get my paycheck -> leave at 5:30 to go lift weights and eat dinner -> spend my evenings prepping for whiteboarding again -> poo poo out resumes when I'm back from holiday.

Did you make HR aware of the nature of the meeting beforehand or did you just ask for a meeting?

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:

Did you make HR aware of the nature of the meeting beforehand or did you just ask for a meeting?

I told them I was interested in exploring other opportunities within the company and that Iíd prefer to explore those options sooner rather than later due to circumstances with my given team. They absolutely know. This has literally happened twice in the last 6 months. I also made it obvious by requesting discretion.

Doghouse
Oct 22, 2004

I was playing Harvest Moon 64 with this kid who lived on my street and my cows were not doing well and I got so raged up and frustrated that my eyes welled up with tears and my friend was like are you crying dude. Are you crying because of the cows. I didn't understand the feeding mechanic.

So I sent my resume in to a small and new but very promising blockchain company, they have a platform that's meant to bring blockchain development to enterprises. I am super interested in the blockchain space and have a lot of high level knowledge, and even detailed knowledge about how the software works, but zero experience writing anything having to do with blockchain. I've worked 3.5 years doing .net desktop and web development.

He said he wants to know how I think I can contribute. How in the hell do I sell myself?? It was kind of a "why the hell not send my resume in" thing.

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

Doghouse posted:

He said he wants to know how I think I can contribute. How in the hell do I sell myself?? It was kind of a "why the hell not send my resume in" thing.

Ok, sidestepping the "promising blockchain" oxymoron... how do you think you can contribute? Your resume is a very boring answer to that, basically admitting you don't have the creativity to chain the narrative of your career into the next thing and asking them to connect the dots.

"Well, I don't have a traditional developer background, but I've been nailing .net LOB apps for a while and have hit my limit with what I can do in that space. Blockchain is a young, growing area where I can apply what I know to shape the entire space"

Take all the poo poo you hate and put a positive spin on it. "Bored doing CRUD apps" -> "have fully explored this space and eager for new challenges"
"hate the folks I work with" -> "eager to broaden my network of technology professionals"

Volguus
Mar 3, 2009


Doghouse posted:

So I sent my resume in to a small and new but very promising blockchain company, they have a platform that's meant to bring blockchain development to enterprises. I am super interested in the blockchain space and have a lot of high level knowledge, and even detailed knowledge about how the software works, but zero experience writing anything having to do with blockchain. I've worked 3.5 years doing .net desktop and web development.

He said he wants to know how I think I can contribute. How in the hell do I sell myself?? It was kind of a "why the hell not send my resume in" thing.

What do you want to do with a blockchain? From my very limited experience it has a niche use-case. It can be awesome in that space, but quite useless in other places. Or do you think of ways of fitting that square peg in this very round hole?

kitten smoothie
Dec 29, 2001



piratepilates posted:

What are some ideas for interviewing QA people?

Let's say that it's more for manual QA, instead of automating tests.

Main idea I have is to create a simple but lovely app (let's say a todo app) that has a bunch of bugs and poor usability, and let the candidate loose and have them just play around and generate ideas on how to improve the app.

I'd give them a wireframe of a simple feature and the requirements, same as a developer would get to build it, and ask them to write a test plan. See if they can understand what the feature is trying to do enough to test it, and see if they know to test for odd cases (say it's a restaurant ordering app, can you order a burger with negative slices of cheese).

Generally where I've worked, QA writes the test plan in parallel to the developer implementing the feature, so we're both working off the same info.

Love Stole the Day
Nov 4, 2012


Is November hiring season or something for this tech industry? Because after many months of being black hole'd I got two interviews off of random LinkedIn messages. Both went past initial and second interviews but fell apart between the interviewing and the offer. Was also my first tech interview -- they were a lot easier than I thought they'd be! Although I imagine for big companies they'd make you do that hard stuff that I keep reading about.

Back to the black hole, though. It's really strange that my only responses came from when they initiated the contact with me via LinkedIn. It makes me feel like I should just stop applying and invest that time and effort into make my LinkedIn more appealing to recruiters instead.

Messyass
Dec 23, 2003



Doghouse posted:

So I sent my resume in to a small and new but very promising blockchain company, they have a platform that's meant to bring blockchain development to enterprises. I am super interested in the blockchain space and have a lot of high level knowledge, and even detailed knowledge about how the software works, but zero experience writing anything having to do with blockchain. I've worked 3.5 years doing .net desktop and web development.

He said he wants to know how I think I can contribute. How in the hell do I sell myself?? It was kind of a "why the hell not send my resume in" thing.

Hmm, how do you sell something to blockchain people... Oh I know, just pull something out of your rear end, they'll trip over themselves to buy it.

fantastic in plastic
Jun 15, 2007

The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.


Love Stole the Day posted:

Is November hiring season or something for this tech industry? Because after many months of being black hole'd I got two interviews off of random LinkedIn messages. Both went past initial and second interviews but fell apart between the interviewing and the offer. Was also my first tech interview -- they were a lot easier than I thought they'd be! Although I imagine for big companies they'd make you do that hard stuff that I keep reading about.

Back to the black hole, though. It's really strange that my only responses came from when they initiated the contact with me via LinkedIn. It makes me feel like I should just stop applying and invest that time and effort into make my LinkedIn more appealing to recruiters instead.

I think there was a post on Hacker News saying that their "who is hiring?" thread typically gets the most activity in November.

Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008


Messyass posted:

Hmm, how do you sell something to blockchain people... Oh I know, just pull something out of your rear end, they'll trip over themselves to buy it.

Just tell them you're gonna sell them an initial job offering and they'll fall over themselves to pay you I'm sure.

Then you'll crash and burn once they realize your value is fictional :P

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





OK I know it's cool to hate blockchain and I'm sure with good reason, but could we avoid making GBS threads on someone's dreams please.

We don't know the business model of the company or their sales pitch, nor do we know what doghouse wants to get out of working there. I know it's hard to fathom but it's also possible they know more about it than we do.

Trust me when I say there's plenty of reasons to be lovely and cynical about technology but let's let some positivity live for once.

Doghouse
Oct 22, 2004

I was playing Harvest Moon 64 with this kid who lived on my street and my cows were not doing well and I got so raged up and frustrated that my eyes welled up with tears and my friend was like are you crying dude. Are you crying because of the cows. I didn't understand the feeding mechanic.

Haha don't worry I'm a SA veteran, I'm used to all the cynicism. Thanks for the feedback.

Edit: I actually enjoyed the blockchain bashing, it made me laugh. I happen to think it's not correct, but even if I'm wrong, working for a small startup that crashes and burns is not the end of the world for me. Plenty of boring jobs working on old legacy apps around to fall back on.

Doghouse fucked around with this message at Dec 5, 2017 around 13:38

geeves
Sep 16, 2004



Love Stole the Day posted:

Is November hiring season or something for this tech industry? Because after many months of being black hole'd I got two interviews off of random LinkedIn messages. Both went past initial and second interviews but fell apart between the interviewing and the offer. Was also my first tech interview -- they were a lot easier than I thought they'd be! Although I imagine for big companies they'd make you do that hard stuff that I keep reading about.

Back to the black hole, though. It's really strange that my only responses came from when they initiated the contact with me via LinkedIn. It makes me feel like I should just stop applying and invest that time and effort into make my LinkedIn more appealing to recruiters instead.

Need to spend budget or perhaps hit a hiring quota to sustain said budget. 3/4 jobs I have been interviewed and hired in November or December.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


2/3 for me.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


I was interviewed and hired for the job Iím at in December so beware friends!!!!!

mrmcd
Feb 22, 2003



Doghouse posted:

Edit: I actually enjoyed the blockchain bashing, it made me laugh. I happen to think it's not correct, but even if I'm wrong, working for a small startup that crashes and burns is not the end of the world for me. Plenty of boring jobs working on old legacy apps around to fall back on.

Well except for all the extra compensation you'll miss out on from working somewhere with actually valuable and liquid equity, higher base and bonus, and better comp anchoring for your next job. Plus when the crypto bubble pops and everyone realizes none of these companies have an actual business or product, you'll be unemployed with no benefits for 2-4 months, *if* it doesn't pop going face first into a broader recession.

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



Pillbug

I don't like changing jobs at the end of the year because getting a new job then loving off even for normal holiday vacation makes me nervous. For bullshit puritan work ethic reasons, sure, but it's still there.

Jaded Burnout posted:

could we avoid making GBS threads on someone's dreams please

Please don't kinkshame

kitten smoothie
Dec 29, 2001



Munkeymon posted:

I don't like changing jobs at the end of the year because getting a new job then loving off even for normal holiday vacation makes me nervous. For bullshit puritan work ethic reasons, sure, but it's still there.

Yeah last year I accepted a job on December 15, and that was a day before I was going to take off the remaining two weeks of the month. I thought that'd be a dick move to just give 2 weeks notice, so I just gave 4 weeks notice instead and quit the Friday before MLK day.

Of course then I go to give notice and my boss tells me he's quitting too and he's got zero compunction himself about taking 2 weeks off, working one day in January, and bugging out.


Pro tip, your FSA plan is fully spendable starting on Jan 1, and they can't come after you for the shortfall if you quit before fully paying it in. So go get those $500 glasses or whatever.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Good Will Hrunting posted:

I was interviewed and hired for the job Iím at in December so beware friends!!!!!

Does this mean ? Grats!

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«247 »