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Skandranon
Sep 6, 2008
fucking stupid, dont listen to me

The Dark Wind posted:

Any tips on how to navigate this kind of thing?

In my experience, it's not so much that you can't make big changes, but you can't be throwing in a ton of uncertainty. You want to be reducing uncertainty, for your boss and co-workers. One way of doing this is just being hyper-competent, but this is hard to demonstrate in a short period of time without appearing arrogant. Another way is to actively get buy-in for some proposal, and specifically to listen to people's feedback and addressing their concerns. There is no guarantee this will work perfectly and you won't find that one person that can't help but be threatened, but most reasonable people will be happy you are solving their problems in a competent way.

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Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





This is mostly for process changes but I've found the phrase "let's try it for a week and we can change it if we don't like it" works wonders, because what most people fear is not change but being stuck with a bad change and feeling powerless to resist it.

Broadly, what everyone wants is to know that they were involved in the decision to make changes that affect their jobs, and the three ways I've found to accommodate that are:
1. Have them in the actual decision meeting.
2. If there isn't room have them provide their concerns to a representative in the meeting.
3. If the change has already been made, be visibly and vocally open to feedback and express that one of your goals is to iron out pain points that they find along the way.

Jaded Burnout fucked around with this message at Jan 5, 2018 around 07:55

Keetron
Sep 26, 2008

Check out my enormous testicles in my TFLC log!

All that poo poo sounds like management and it is already proven I suck at that. Can't I just write code and show it to people so they will find it is a good idea? Or show them the results of faster tests, more tests and accurate predictions? (I am aware that none of this helps if you are a dick)

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





Keetron posted:

All that poo poo sounds like management and it is already proven I suck at that. Can't I just write code and show it to people so they will find it is a good idea? Or show them the results of faster tests, more tests and accurate predictions? (I am aware that none of this helps if you are a dick)

Yes, if that person is your manager / tech lead who then goes and does all the other stuff. Otherwise no unless everyone is very receptive to change in which case it's not a problem in the first place.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


So recently in the process of job hunting I'm hearing a lot from recruiters and networking people and all that about opportunities that go something like: "the company is really looking to fill a senior role, but we think they'd be open to someone more (junior/mid-level), so we'd like to pass on your information." I'm a little wary of these sorts of recommendations, if the company is looking for someone who's a senior-level engineer, wouldn't they be disappointed if someone who didn't fit that criteria showed up for an interview or got hired? At best, they'd be annoyed that the recruiting agency/hiring people wasted their time, and at worst, they'd be saddled with someone that didn't fit the job for a month or two before they get let go and nobody is happy.

Is this typical, or should it be a red flag? It's a bit of a warning in my head, since I can't see much good coming of it.

The pessimist in me thinks that if they're shopping around senior-level positions to non-seniors, then that means no seniors are interested in the position, so that's another red flag.

Pollyanna fucked around with this message at Jan 5, 2018 around 15:00

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams



It typically means the recruiter is trying to make money somehow, in my experience. Avoid. Example: 18 months I interviewed for a High Mid-Level/Senior Big Data position I didn't feel at all qualified for going into the interview and after the 2nd phone screen we mutually decided it was a bad fit even though I did alright with some of the technical stuff. Now, I feel like I could ace the interview with the extra experience I have and I'm even more aware of signs that would have pointed to me not being ready.

Che Delilas
Nov 23, 2009
FREE TIBET WEED

I don't put anything past recruiters, and take anything they say with an enormous grain of salt. If you get far enough through the process that the company is interested in bringing you in for a face to face interview, that's your time to dig for details about the position.

If the situation is as the recruiter described, my first guess would be they're offering junior-level compensation for senior-level work. But even if that ends up being the case, the worst case for you is that you come away with some more interview practice.

edit: Reading what GWH said, I agree they could just be casting a wide net.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


Che Delilas posted:

edit: Reading what GWH said, I agree they could just be casting a wide net.

Me: "I want to either work on a data pipeline on the streaming/infrastructure side or work on a team building a few services supporting APIs"
Recruiter: "Cool!"

<Three weeks pass>
<Voicemail from unknown number>

Recruiter: "Hey Chris we found about 32 Magical VP Full-Stack Warrior positions and 79 Senior Gosu Front-End Gladiator roles - we know you don't ever want to touch anything related to JavaScript professionally ever again and you clearly expressed that in our 15-20 minute screen where I was taking notes or doing something else loudly on my keyboard but it's really hot right now and we think you should give it a look!!!"

E: Now I'm getting targeted on SA for Hortonworks lmao

fantastic in plastic
Jun 15, 2007

The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.


Pollyanna posted:

So recently in the process of job hunting I'm hearing a lot from recruiters and networking people and all that about opportunities that go something like: "the company is really looking to fill a senior role, but we think they'd be open to someone more (junior/mid-level), so we'd like to pass on your information." I'm a little wary of these sorts of recommendations, if the company is looking for someone who's a senior-level engineer, wouldn't they be disappointed if someone who didn't fit that criteria showed up for an interview or got hired? At best, they'd be annoyed that the recruiting agency/hiring people wasted their time, and at worst, they'd be saddled with someone that didn't fit the job for a month or two before they get let go and nobody is happy.

Is this typical, or should it be a red flag? It's a bit of a warning in my head, since I can't see much good coming of it.

The pessimist in me thinks that if they're shopping around senior-level positions to non-seniors, then that means no seniors are interested in the position, so that's another red flag.

If it's a recruiter from an agency, I just assume everything they say is bullshit and decide whether or not to apply on whether or not I'd like the job if a miracle occurred.

If it's an internal recruiter, I pay a little more attention because they probably do know more about the HR situation or how much the hiring manager values years of experience.

If it's my friend who's telling me about an opportunity at their company, I believe that they believe everything they're telling me is true.

That said, don't worry about what the company would feel. Companies don't feel anything. Interviewers will have forgotten your name by the time you walk out of the building. If you especially bomb, "the person who didn't know what a class is" might be a story for a day or two. "Nobody is happy" is overwhelmingly the norm in business.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I don't worry about the company in terms of their feelings, I worry about the company in terms of them changing their mind and letting me go.

There's only one recommendation from them that I would even remotely consider, so I'll be asking to get in contact with that one. Less I deal with recruiters, the better.

Skandranon
Sep 6, 2008
fucking stupid, dont listen to me

Pollyanna posted:

I don't worry about the company in terms of their feelings, I worry about the company in terms of them changing their mind and letting me go.

There's only one recommendation from them that I would even remotely consider, so I'll be asking to get in contact with that one. Less I deal with recruiters, the better.

Well, again, that's part of the interview process. They should be sufficiently grilling you to find out if you have the requisite skills, and you should be sufficiently grilling them to find out if you want to work there. If you want this current event to never repeat, you can just start being brutally honest in interviews, but this will at the very least cost you in the salary offered.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Skandranon posted:

Well, again, that's part of the interview process. They should be sufficiently grilling you to find out if you have the requisite skills, and you should be sufficiently grilling them to find out if you want to work there. If you want this current event to never repeat, you can just start being brutally honest in interviews, but this will at the very least cost you in the salary offered.

If brutal honesty results in retaliation on the part of the company then I don't want to work there. If that pattern holds across the industry, then the industry has an attitude problem. If that pattern holds across an entire country, well...

rt4
Feb 19, 2008


Grimey Drawer

What if it holds across an entire mode of production?

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


Pollyanna the day you accept that a majority of all people, especially middle and upper management, and probably every company you may ever interview with or work for are garbage and don't care about you in the slightest bit and only care about their own motivators and maybe the bottom line (very frequently related things) ---- I think you'll be really happy.

Mao Zedong Thot
Oct 16, 2008





Nap Ghost

Pollyanna posted:

If brutal honesty results in retaliation on the part of the company then I don't want to work there. If that pattern holds across the industry, then the industry has an attitude problem. If that pattern holds across an entire country, well...

Eggnogium
Jun 1, 2010

Never give an inch! Hnnnghhhhhh!

Pollyanna posted:

If brutal honesty results in retaliation on the part of the company then I don't want to work there. If that pattern holds across the industry, then the industry has an attitude problem. If that pattern holds across an entire country, well...

That's not retaliation, it's negotiation.

Skandranon
Sep 6, 2008
fucking stupid, dont listen to me


I feel I should just start including one of these in all my posts to Pollyanna...

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



Pillbug

Good Will Hrunting posted:

Pollyanna the day you accept that a majority of all people, especially middle and upper management, and probably every company you may ever interview with or work for are garbage and don't care about you in the slightest bit and only care about their own motivators and maybe the bottom line (very frequently related things) ---- I think you'll be really happy.

I don't know what you mean - mother corporation loves and cares deeply for me as stated clearly in the employee handbook!

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


rt4 posted:

What if it holds across an entire mode of production?

Then we must seize the means of that production

Good Will Hrunting posted:

Pollyanna the day you accept that a majority of all people, especially middle and upper management, and probably every company you may ever interview with or work for are garbage and don't care about you in the slightest bit and only care about their own motivators and maybe the bottom line (very frequently related things) ---- I think you'll be really happy.

Oh I have no doubt that's the case. The key is to navigate it properly such that you avoid getting hosed over by it as much as possible.

Skandranon posted:

I feel I should just start including one of these in all my posts to Pollyanna...

My stupidity is infinite and omnipresent. All hail the blind idiot god

The March Hare
Oct 15, 2006

Je rve d'un
Wayne's World 3


Buglord

People who are competent at their jobs get promoted into other jobs that they are probably not competent at. Good programmers become bad managers, and so on.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


My most recent manager was a bad programmer and an even worse manager who outright said that he was no good at it, so

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



Pillbug

Pollyanna posted:

My most recent manager was a bad programmer and an even worse manager who outright said that he was no good at it, so

Nepotism.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


The March Hare posted:

People who are competent at their jobs get promoted into other jobs that they are probably not competent at. Good programmers become bad managers, and so on.

This assumes managers are good at 1.) recognizing talents and contributions 2.) giving credit where it's due and not 1.) blaming others 2.) playing off accomplishments as their own. Not all places have this level of transparency.

The March Hare
Oct 15, 2006

Je rve d'un
Wayne's World 3


Buglord

Good Will Hrunting posted:

This assumes managers are good at 1.) recognizing talents and contributions 2.) giving credit where it's due and not 1.) blaming others 2.) playing off accomplishments as their own. Not all places have this level of transparency.

I was mostly just posting about this, which I have found to be reasonably true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.



That seemed to be the case, yes.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


The March Hare posted:

I was mostly just posting about this, which I have found to be reasonably true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

For sure, I agree with that completely. One day I would like to be make the move to PM because seeing how little most PMs understand with respect to the tech side, I feel like I'd absolutely kill it. I don't I'd ever want to be an engineering manager above something like "tech lead".

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I'd rather just focus on what I'm good at, cause regardless of the poo poo I've dealt with I know what I'm good at and not good at. Management and organization, especially for myself, is my weak spot. Doesn't help that I have a disability that compromises my executive functions, but even if I didn't, it's not an easy thing to do.

Tres Burritos
Sep 3, 2009



Some y'all seem to have really poo poo work environments / managers.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Tres Burritos posted:

Some y'all seem to have really poo poo work environments / managers.

When the majority of job openings out there are crappy startups with 2-3 years of operation still looking to get their A-rounds, it's a wonder lovely environments and managers aren't more common.

The March Hare
Oct 15, 2006

Je rve d'un
Wayne's World 3


Buglord

I've really only ever worked for and with very competent and nice people. I chalk it up to luck~

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


The March Hare posted:

I've really only ever worked for and with very competent and nice people. I chalk it up to luck~

I've had a few people who were meh engineers, but a very select few. The issues have lain in managerial skills and managerial attitude, particularly on the product side with the exception being my current role where both the engineering manager and the product manager are huge tools.

Skandranon
Sep 6, 2008
fucking stupid, dont listen to me

Pollyanna posted:

I'd rather just focus on what I'm good at, cause regardless of the poo poo I've dealt with I know what I'm good at and not good at. Management and organization, especially for myself, is my weak spot. Doesn't help that I have a disability that compromises my executive functions, but even if I didn't, it's not an easy thing to do.

Most of us would LIKE to just focus on what we are good at, but the real gold is where you are not good, so that is precisely where you should focus on getting better. Maximum area for a given perimeter is a circle.

Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life


Pro tip for finding better jobs and not wasting your time: stop talking to recruiting agencies.

Scour job sites for positions with the company in it, research the company, do they seem poo poo? If yes, move on, if no, apply directly through their job board.

Take the idiot shills who don't give a gently caress about you or know anything about the job out of the picture, there's so many jobs out there you're not going to be missing out on the 3 companies that only work through a recruiting agency (hint they're also probably terrible).

I say this matter of factly with my huge wealth of experience

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Mr. Crow posted:

Pro tip for finding better jobs and not wasting your time: stop talking to recruiting agencies.

Scour job sites for positions with the company in it, research the company, do they seem poo poo? If yes, move on, if no, apply directly through their job board.

Take the idiot shills who don't give a gently caress about you or know anything about the job out of the picture, there's so many jobs out there you're not going to be missing out on the 3 companies that only work through a recruiting agency (hint they're also probably terrible).

I say this matter of factly with my huge wealth of experience

This would be my go-to strategy if I had the magnitude of knowledge that recruiters do about what tech companies are in my area, what they do, which of them are hiring, and if they're hiring for someone with my skill level and skillset. Unfortunately, I can't really compete with an entire company dedicated to that task.

Portland Sucks
Dec 21, 2004
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

Pollyanna posted:

This would be my go-to strategy if I had the magnitude of knowledge that recruiters do about what tech companies are in my area, what they do, which of them are hiring, and if they're hiring for someone with my skill level and skillset. Unfortunately, I can't really compete with an entire company dedicated to that task.

indeed.com got you covered bro

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


Post your resume on Hired and Underdog

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

Pollyanna posted:

This would be my go-to strategy if I had the magnitude of knowledge that recruiters do about what tech companies are in my area, what they do, which of them are hiring, and if they're hiring for someone with my skill level and skillset. Unfortunately, I can't really compete with an entire company dedicated to that task.

You're in Boston right?
I just spent 10 minutes on Glassdoor, here are 5 companies hiring junior engineers in Boston that at least at first glance aren't garbage based on their Glassdoor reviews.
https://www.glassdoor.com/job-listi...t=1515198768596
https://www.glassdoor.com/job-listi...t=1515198824634
https://www.glassdoor.com/job-listi...t=1515198909653
https://www.glassdoor.com/job-listi...t=1515198964887
https://www.glassdoor.com/job-listi...t=1515199092115

Here's 305 more although I haven't checked out those companies on Glassdoor: https://whoishiring.io/search/42.36...ftware+engineer

LinkedIn also has a job search

Love Stole the Day
Nov 4, 2012


The more I apply for these tech jobs and get Black Hole'd, the more I feel like the only way I'll find a tech job is if I create it for myself (i.e. entrepreneurship). The entrepreneurship books I've looked at read more like self-help books than anything else, though, and Indie Hackers seems full of confirmation bias.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


Instead of that, you should go into more detail about where you're failing and let people here help you.

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fantastic in plastic
Jun 15, 2007

The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.


If you have the resources to survive the "nobody wants my product/service" stage and the temperament to not kill yourself with work when you have it or stress about not making money when you don't have work, then go for it.

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