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Volguus
Mar 3, 2009


Pollyanna posted:

This would be my go-to strategy if I had the magnitude of knowledge that recruiters do about what tech companies are in my area, what they do, which of them are hiring, and if they're hiring for someone with my skill level and skillset. Unfortunately, I can't really compete with an entire company dedicated to that task.

A little bit of googling should reveal companies in your area. You want to code, fine, but that doesn't mean that you have to be in a software-only company. Everyone needs software developers nowadays. Some more than others, though. Research companies in your area, filter out those that do not look appealing (for whatever reason: their business, their history, their name, glassdoor reviews, etc.) and come up with a list of companies that you do want to work for. Then, with resumes in hand you can actually apply in person. Go to the receptionist and give them the envelope with your resume (say who you are, what you want, etc.). Some will say no, apply on the website, some will have a very strict process on hiring and will not entertain anyone, some will throw the package in the trash bin, some will actually know that Bob is looking for developers for project X. Maybe Bob didn't even make the job position public yet (it is expensive).
Applying online, like everyone else, makes you compete with everyone else. Less competition the better. This is why networking (people) is so important. If you know the right someone, you don't apply for jobs, they are applying to you.

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Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





Good Will Hrunting posted:

Instead of that, you should go into more detail about where you're failing and let people here help you.

They did, we did, I guess it didnít work

Love Stole the Day
Nov 4, 2012


Sometimes commiserating is just as useful as trying to find solutions.

edit -- i wrote a bunch of that would probably have been better posted in e/n or whatever so nvm

Love Stole the Day fucked around with this message at Jan 6, 2018 around 16:28

Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life


I skimmed back through your post history and I couldn't tell... Do you have any actual software job history or is it all self taught stuff and you're trying to get into the industry?

If the later you're going to have a hard time, just like everyone else. Software is unfortunately not much different in regards to entry level work, like everything else it's saturated and while it maybe it's not as bad as a lot (most?) Industrious, you might spend years out of college before you can find a job.

Where you live plays a big role as well (for new hires). Until you get a couple years under your belt you're not going to have the freedom you always hear associated with programming.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


But when you do have a few years rest assured you will have an easy time finding stuff and it's absolutely worth it. I thought my job search took long last time (mid Sept through mid Dec offer while working full time) but seeing how long it takes for non-engineers to get new jobs holy poo poo I'm thankful.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Good Will Hrunting posted:

But when you do have a few years rest assured you will have an easy time finding stuff and it's absolutely worth it. I thought my job search took long last time (mid Sept through mid Dec offer while working full time) but seeing how long it takes for non-engineers to get new jobs holy poo poo I'm thankful.

Yep, breaking in is the hardest part. Though my job search has gotten progressively longer for me, cause Iím lazy.

geeves
Sep 16, 2004



Pollyanna posted:

Yep, breaking in is the hardest part. Though my job search has gotten progressively longer for me, cause Iím lazy.

Are you tied strictly to Boston or are you also looking elsewhere?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


geeves posted:

Are you tied strictly to Boston or are you also looking elsewhere?

I am open to non-Boston opportunities, and am considering leaving the city altogether (too expensive, too bullshit).

Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008


Seattle, NYC, SF, and kinda-sorta Austin are the other decent engineering markets.

rt4
Feb 19, 2008


Grimey Drawer

Fully remote or nothing imo

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


rt4 posted:

Fully remote or nothing imo

I don't like remote jobs - too difficult to coordinate with others on problem-solving, getting background on old lovely code, don't feel like part of the company, etc. Plus, staying at home all the time isn't good for me.

Not a bad option if you're looking to live in an area with a low CoL, though. Not a common option, either...

rt4
Feb 19, 2008


Grimey Drawer

Oh yeah, I live in the south where wages are terrible

kitten smoothie
Dec 29, 2001



rt4 posted:

Fully remote or nothing imo

This, because SF/NYC money with St Louis cost of living.

At this point I've priced myself into a situation where I work remote or I take a $40-$50K pay cut.

Love Stole the Day
Nov 4, 2012


kitten smoothie posted:

This, because SF/NYC money with St Louis cost of living.

At this point I've priced myself into a situation where I work remote or I take a $40-$50K pay cut.

I read in this book last year that the only way to have steady work when becoming a freelancer is to already have a reputation when you go into it so that there are already people there willing and able to work with you at the prices that you want. Is this true for your situation? How did you come across your first 10 or so clients or whatever? Did you start with a super low fee just to get work and then increase it as your network grew, or did you maybe start with a high fee because your initial few clients already knew you well enough through word of mouth somehow?

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





Love Stole the Day posted:

I read in this book last year that the only way to have steady work when becoming a freelancer is to already have a reputation when you go into it so that there are already people there willing and able to work with you at the prices that you want. Is this true for your situation? How did you come across your first 10 or so clients or whatever? Did you start with a super low fee just to get work and then increase it as your network grew, or did you maybe start with a high fee because your initial few clients already knew you well enough through word of mouth somehow?

If by reputation you mean proven track record then yeah it's the same as any other job, but the people who hired me didn't know me personally or have a network to me.

I live in an area with a very strong job market for developers and when people can't hire permies they hire contractors, so one leads to another.

In more pure freelance work I actually got a couple of clients from this very website.

Infinotize
Sep 5, 2003



Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:

Seattle, NYC, SF, and kinda-sorta Austin are the other decent engineering markets.

I'd throw Denver/Boulder in there as well. Maybe not as big (or Austin-sized) but viable.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Been thinking of maybe moving to Colorado someday. Would be interesting...but moving to a new place is dependent on how good the market as a whole looks, rather than individual opportunities (what happens if it falls through? What's your backup plan?), so I'd have to research that market more.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It is time for your viscera to see the light of day!

Denver/Boulder is a popular destination for people who are sick of the cost of living in the San Francisco area but still want a decent job market. It's definitely someplace you should consider if you want out of Boston.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I've also heard Des Moines, IA is alright. Unfortunately, that also means you're in Iowa.

LLSix
Jan 20, 2010

The real power behind countless overlords

Any advice for finding remote openings? I worked remotely for about a month over the holidays because the main offices were closed down and it was pretty nice. I got more done than usual too because I was able to get started right at 7:30 or however earlier I woke up.

kitten smoothie
Dec 29, 2001



Love Stole the Day posted:

I read in this book last year that the only way to have steady work when becoming a freelancer is to already have a reputation when you go into it so that there are already people there willing and able to work with you at the prices that you want. Is this true for your situation? How did you come across your first 10 or so clients or whatever? Did you start with a super low fee just to get work and then increase it as your network grew, or did you maybe start with a high fee because your initial few clients already knew you well enough through word of mouth somehow?

Can't help you on the freelancing bit as I'm a full time W-2 employee, having worked remotely for companies in SF and NYC.

I sort of "bootstrapped" this by attending a local developer meetup and speaking once or twice. The person who ran the meetup also was working remotely with a company in SF. He referred me in to his group, a team based out of Palo Alto.

From there on it's been referrals from people I've met at developer meetups in SF/NYC or at conferences. I make a point of it to attend meetups when I'm in town for work (I go in every ~3 months), and I attend a few conferences a year, so that helps quite a bit.

Also between my experience and those of others I know, companies will often bend a "no remote" rule to "remote, for the right person" if someone there knows you. You're likely not going to ever see a management title doing that, but you can go climbing the technical ladder.

I guess I've built up enough network and results behind me that I could go freelancing, but I'm making great money and it's stable, so I don't want to rock the boat.

Pollyanna posted:

I've also heard Des Moines, IA is alright. Unfortunately, that also means you're in Iowa.

I know Des Moines got some press like 5 years back because Dwolla, but I haven't heard a whole lot else out of there.

Thirding Denver/Boulder though. Boulder reminds me of Palo Alto in a lot of ways, but with cheaper real estate and snow.


LLSix posted:

Any advice for finding remote openings? I worked remotely for about a month over the holidays because the main offices were closed down and it was pretty nice. I got more done than usual too because I was able to get started right at 7:30 or however earlier I woke up.

For job boards, maybe consider Stack Overflow or WeWorkRemotely. But also as I mentioned you may find people locally at meetups and the like who are working remotely and can refer you.

Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life


Colorado is horrible I wouldn't recommend it.

Cost of living is really high. Traffic is terrible.

Mr. Crow fucked around with this message at Jan 7, 2018 around 20:23

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It is time for your viscera to see the light of day!

Compared to NYC or SF?

the talent deficit
Dec 20, 2003

self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture







College Slice

boulder has ridiculous cost of living (comparable to seattle/los angeles). if you don't mind commuting longmont is pretty reasonable tho

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Hm, scratch that then.

Honestly, the more I hear about the cost of living around the country, the massive wage and most definitely wealth inequality, how centralized job markets and economies are, and how stratified society has become, the more my belief that we need serious reform in the United States is reinforced. Something's gone horribly wrong.

Volguus
Mar 3, 2009


Pollyanna posted:

Hm, scratch that then.

Honestly, the more I hear about the cost of living around the country, the massive wage and most definitely wealth inequality, how centralized job markets and economies are, and how stratified society has become, the more my belief that we need serious reform in the United States is reinforced. Something's gone horribly wrong.

Run for office. Cushy job for life. Hard to get in, but once in, you're set.

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

Pollyanna posted:

Hm, scratch that then.

Honestly, the more I hear about the cost of living around the country, the massive wage and most definitely wealth inequality, how centralized job markets and economies are, and how stratified society has become, the more my belief that we need serious reform in the United States is reinforced. Something's gone horribly wrong.

Yes everything is hosed but you work in an industry where they'll pay you enough* to live anywhere.


*For some value of 'enough'

Infinotize
Sep 5, 2003



I know Boulder is where the bigcos are but like it has been said Boulder is tiny and has gotten rather expensive if you aren't at one of those bigcos. Denver is bigger and still has a decent number of jobs (good ones? some at least). But it's also not as expensive, even though people there cry about housing costs going up. Honestly, every desirable market has had exploding housing costs since 2009, it's just one of those things you'll have to live with, but medium-market cities are still overall much cheaper than NYC or the horrible bay area. The value of each market depends a lot on individual comp packages and housing decisions, but the tiny markets like Des Moines or St Louis or wherever leave a lot to be desired IMO, unless you scored a remote gig and like the location.

One trick is to just live a couple of years in NYC/SF if you find a job that pays, and there are lots of them, and then moving anywhere else will seem super cheap

Infinotize fucked around with this message at Jan 7, 2018 around 23:44

pigdog
Apr 23, 2004


rt4 posted:

Fully remote or nothing imo

Are you your own user, customer, product owner, architect, the sole developer, and boss?

Because if you're not Notch who's everything of the above, remote software development doesn't work. Programming is a small part of software development process. The bottleneck is in moving and synchronizing ideas and knowledge between minds, which physical remoteness hinders greatly. Developing software for and with other people just isn't the kind of job that can be efficiently remoted in all but few cases.

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





pigdog posted:

Are you your own user, customer, product owner, architect, the sole developer, and boss?

Because if you're not Notch who's everything of the above, remote software development doesn't work. Programming is a small part of software development process. The bottleneck is in moving and synchronizing ideas and knowledge between minds, which physical remoteness hinders greatly. Developing software for and with other people just isn't the kind of job that can be efficiently remoted in all but few cases.

In my experience those "few cases" are places where remote working is taken seriously and all of the non-code dev stuff you're talking about is done in an online-first manner rather than treating remote workers as an afterthought.

I work somewhere where at least half of the dozens-strong tech team is remote and it works just fine. All my freelance work is remote and it works just fine.

I've not seen a process which can't be just as effectively done remote with investment in a few good cameras, microphones, and a decent wiki. And you get the benefit of searchable documentation of decisions for people who are away, interested but not involved, or staying home sick.

rt4
Feb 19, 2008


Grimey Drawer

Yeah, my employer is almost entirely remote. Only a handful of people who happen to live in the same cities work in an office together. Advertising, sales, accounting, programming, ops, and support are all handled remotely so it's not like remote workers are on a lower tier. I don't know how many companies do this, but we have fewer meetings, no weird in-office interactions, and the things we say to each other are nearly all in writing so plans usually don't just float into the ether.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


On the other hand, the company I left just recently had about a fourth of their engineering team working remotely. Of the engineers that worked directly on the product instead of on infrastructure, they either often commuted into the main office, or lived abroad. The remote engineer I worked with the most on my team was utterly miserable and constantly poo poo-talked management, especially my manager/the team lead. Our designer/product owner seemed to resent the remote workers, and was often kind of an rear end to us. Wrangling the other engineers/workers to get information out of them to do my loving job was like pulling teeth, and the local workers were regularly confused when I said I wasn't actually in CA and that I was sticking to a 9AM~5PM EST workday, which was apparently a problem that they refused to try and work on.

Remote positions are easy to gently caress up and you need a good, understanding company in order to handle it. Mine was not.

Gildiss
Aug 24, 2010

That's downright discourteous. So be it, we'll improvise.


Grimey Drawer

If the majority was in PST why wouldn't you shift to working 9 to 5 PST?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Gildiss posted:

If the majority was in PST why wouldn't you shift to working 9 to 5 PST?

I was not interested in doing that and I really didn't want my sleep schedule to shift like that.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


Remote jobs are just like any other job. The team can suck rear end and be poo poo or be cool and good and work well.

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



Pillbug

https://stackoverflow.com/jobs?sort...vel&j=permanent

Just about any metro area that's the center of its local media market is probably going to have plenty of jobs. Just check local COL and moving costs.

friendbot2000
Apr 30, 2011



I kind of fell into the career path of being a Test Automation Engineer and I am being groomed to become a lead of a new Automation Team in the near future. I still can't shake the feeling that my niche could be dangerous to my long term career health if Test Automation goes away. Do any of the more experienced old timers have any advice on where I should start branching off too as a contingency? I do a lot of work with frameworks (I built the one we use for automation) so that was my first guess, but I am looking for some outside input.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I'm gonna be honest, I've been tempted to go back to my old workplace and ask if there's still a position open for me. Long shot, but I actually kinda miss the place - if the problems I've shared before have been improved, then I might be open to returning. I left on a positive note, noting that I enjoyed my time there but was compelled by the new offer + felt rather uneasy about being valued (i.e. people getting let go and also leaving independently).

Has anyone actually done this? Is it seen as a negative? How often does it work out?

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

Pollyanna posted:

I'm gonna be honest, I've been tempted to go back to my old workplace and ask if there's still a position open for me. Long shot, but I actually kinda miss the place - if the problems I've shared before have been improved, then I might be open to returning. I left on a positive note, noting that I enjoyed my time there but was compelled by the new offer + felt rather uneasy about being valued (i.e. people getting let go and also leaving independently).

Has anyone actually done this? Is it seen as a negative? How often does it work out?

This is like getting back together with your ex because your rebound went bad. Assuming they take you back it'll be great for a month or two but all the problems with your ex are still there and soon enough you're going to realize why you left in the first place and what was once an amicable breakup is going to turn into a pure poo poo show after you leave them again

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FamDav
Mar 29, 2008


Pollyanna posted:

Has anyone actually done this? Is it seen as a negative? How often does it work out?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp7eSUU9oy8

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