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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


You're right.

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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


In other news, I declined to sign the separation agreement my previous company sent me - I didn't feel comfortable signing it. According to the lawyer I hired to go over it, I am still somewhat liable for speaking about my experiences at the company (though nowhere near as much as otherwise) so I'm going to remain tight-lipped about it. Still, I think taking the job was a good lesson for me, even if it was ultimately a mistake. Nothing remains but to move on now.

The Dark Wind
Nov 27, 2003

Master of the high hat!

the talent deficit posted:

boulder has ridiculous cost of living (comparable to seattle/los angeles). if you don't mind commuting longmont is pretty reasonable tho

Not sure where you're getting this from. I live a 6 minute car ride from work in Boulder and using about 30% of my salary (post-taxes) for a comfortable 1 bedroom apartment (as an entry-level engineer). Having lived in NYC and Boston before this, the cost of living here is better. I'm assuming it's also better than Seattle or LA but I don't know those markets, although I've heard Seattle is pretty crazy (worse than NYC?). Lots of people complain about the cost of living here, but that's because they're from the mid-west where housing prices are very different. Boulder is definitely getting costlier though with more people moving out here for tech jobs and , but it's definitely not anywhere near NYC/Boston prices yet. And Denver is even more affordable, plus there are a bunch of towns like Broomfield/Westminster/Longmont/Lafayette that you can commute from if Boulder prices don't work out. I wouldn't write it off immediately from your list.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


30% of your post tax going to rent for a 1br is about in line with Boston rates.

rt4
Feb 19, 2008


Grimey Drawer

The best thing about being fully remote is getting paid in bitcoin

Pie Colony
Dec 8, 2006
I AM SUCH A FUCKUP THAT I CAN'T EVEN POST IN AN E/N THREAD I STARTED

pigdog posted:

Are you your own user, customer, product owner, architect, the sole developer, and boss?

Because if you're not Notch who's everything of the above, remote software development doesn't work. Programming is a small part of software development process. The bottleneck is in moving and synchronizing ideas and knowledge between minds, which physical remoteness hinders greatly. Developing software for and with other people just isn't the kind of job that can be efficiently remoted in all but few cases.

This isn't remotely () true. You can still "synchronize ideas and knowledge" without being in the same room. I can speak to and see my coworkers in realtime. I can even pair program with them. And there is a tool for every kind of asynchronous communication you can imagine (which is probably the bulk of your communication as a software dev).

The only thing is your company has to be set up for remote work, and has to have buy-in from everyone else. So this

Pollyanna posted:

Our designer/product owner seemed to resent the remote workers, and was often kind of an rear end to us

...the local workers were regularly confused when I said I wasn't actually in CA and that I was sticking to a 9AM~5PM EST workday

was destined to fail from the start, not only because remote workers were treated as less equal than other workers, but also because Pollyanna refused to accommodate her team by being as available as everyone else.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


I wasn’t willing to compromise on that. Lesson learned, I guess.

CPColin
Sep 9, 2003

Big ol' smile.

Grimey Drawer

Pollyanna posted:

I wasn’t willing to compromise on that. Lesson learned, I guess.

Well, hopefully the team learned a lesson, too, because work schedules should be 100% sorted out by the time the offer is accepted.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


I should also have been super clear about it from the beginning, too - lots I could have done to mitigate it, I think.

HardDiskD
May 6, 2009

HaHAHhehehehuhehahehhahahhaue



Grimey Drawer

What do you guys do in the notice period? One of the reasons that I'm leaving my job is that there was nothing to do, and me putting in notice didn't magically change the situation.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


HardDiskD posted:

What do you guys do in the notice period? One of the reasons that I'm leaving my job is that there was nothing to do, and me putting in notice didn't magically change the situation.

Prepare for the new job.

Skandranon
Sep 6, 2008
fucking stupid, dont listen to me

Pollyanna posted:

I should also have been super clear about it from the beginning, too - lots I could have done to mitigate it, I think.

Why was this such a big deal? It's not like you were trying to sync with India, all of NA falls within 2-3h. It really wouldn't kill you to from 10-6 or 8-4. Especially going into a remote only position, this is a big deal. I'd hazard a guess that it's a big reason you got canned. You can usually shift these things after a few months anyways, but beginnings are a very delicate time.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


It would have been 12-8, not 10-6. Also long hours were common, so if Cali went til 10 it would have gone til 1 for me.

Also the appropriate response would have been to talk to me about it and ask “is there a way you can adjust your schedule to fit ours” rather than just giving up on it altogether.

Mr. Crow
May 22, 2008

Snap City mayor for life


HardDiskD posted:

What do you guys do in the notice period? One of the reasons that I'm leaving my job is that there was nothing to do, and me putting in notice didn't magically change the situation.

Prepare for new job, while making sure you're not burning bridges (e.g. tidy things up, leave notes etc). If you're burning bridges or have nothing to do then go whole hog and spend 100% time preparing for the new job.

Or work on side projects.

redleader
Aug 18, 2005
Engage according to operational parameters

HardDiskD posted:

What do you guys do in the notice period? One of the reasons that I'm leaving my job is that there was nothing to do, and me putting in notice didn't magically change the situation.

the talent deficit
Dec 20, 2003

self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture







College Slice

Pollyanna posted:

It would have been 12-8, not 10-6. Also long hours were common, so if Cali went til 10 it would have gone til 1 for me.

Also the appropriate response would have been to talk to me about it and ask “is there a way you can adjust your schedule to fit ours” rather than just giving up on it altogether.

why did you take the job without discussing working hours?

rt4
Feb 19, 2008


Grimey Drawer

Pollyanna posted:

if Cali went til 10

No surprise that the office that can't cope with a simple timezone difference is a disaster in other respects

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


It's bad if a company works too much then tries to hide it by not discussing off-hours with you. was probably for the best.

If only we had a #disruptive #service to anonymously dox poo poo companies like this.

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

HardDiskD posted:

What do you guys do in the notice period? One of the reasons that I'm leaving my job is that there was nothing to do, and me putting in notice didn't magically change the situation.

During my last notice period I spent the entire time helping my manager plan out the work for the entire upcoming year down to the 2 week sprint level for a project I was never going to be on and was actively trying to disengage from. My managers expectations were way too aggressive but my level of not giving a gently caress was incredibly high so I didn't push back too hard. I did tell her that everything past the first month was going to change drastically and that I didn't think the goals for the year were even close to realistic, but mostly I just wanted to get out of the meetings without burning bridges.

It was a fair penance to pay though considering a few months earlier the project I was working on was cancelled and I spent the next month with nothing to do but practice for interviews all day which got me my current position

HardDiskD
May 6, 2009

HaHAHhehehehuhehahehhahahhaue



Grimey Drawer



studying clojure it is then

Jose Valasquez posted:

During my last notice period I spent the entire time helping my manager plan out the work for the entire upcoming year down to the 2 week sprint level for a project I was never going to be on and was actively trying to disengage from. My managers expectations were way too aggressive but my level of not giving a gently caress was incredibly high so I didn't push back too hard. I did tell her that everything past the first month was going to change drastically and that I didn't think the goals for the year were even close to realistic, but mostly I just wanted to get out of the meetings without burning bridges.

It was a fair penance to pay though considering a few months earlier the project I was working on was cancelled and I spent the next month with nothing to do but practice for interviews all day which got me my current position

I'm not really senior enough to be planning projects, and this current place has some kind of allergy about documenting things (except for testing), and I don't give enough of a gently caress to dig into the projects' issues. My only regret is that it took me way too long to realize that they don't have anything coming down in the pipeline.

HardDiskD fucked around with this message at Jan 8, 2018 around 18:48

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





HardDiskD posted:

What do you guys do in the notice period? One of the reasons that I'm leaving my job is that there was nothing to do, and me putting in notice didn't magically change the situation.

Piss off the CEO enough to get gardening leave, generally.

rt4
Feb 19, 2008


Grimey Drawer

HardDiskD posted:

studying clojure it is then

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


After doing documentation for a week, I wrote a 2000+ word novel about my 3 year journey at the company in the style of Tolkien and sent about 250 words out each day as an ongoing adventure in our Slack channel. Then I just played Hearthstone, drank free lovely coffee, and made sure to own my co-workers in CS 1.5 before leaving.

HardDiskD
May 6, 2009

HaHAHhehehehuhehahehhahahhaue



Grimey Drawer


)])))))))))

Love Stole the Day
Nov 4, 2012


HardDiskD posted:

)])))))))))

Sorry, I'm not hip enough to get this joke. Can someone explain?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


the talent deficit posted:

why did you take the job without discussing working hours?

Other remote workers pulled 9 to 5 their time from what I saw,so it seemed that it was acceptable. Next time I will be explicit about that.

rt4
Feb 19, 2008


Grimey Drawer

Love Stole the Day posted:

Sorry, I'm not hip enough to get this joke. Can someone explain?

It's a Lisp parens joke, but the fact is every other language with a pair of parens per functional call looks the same way if you nest your function calls.

Hughlander
May 11, 2005



Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:

Seattle, NYC, SF, and kinda-sorta Austin are the other decent engineering markets.

For someone complaining that Boston is too expensive I don't think that's going to work.

B-Nasty
May 25, 2005



pigdog posted:

Developing software for and with other people just isn't the kind of job that can be efficiently remoted in all but few cases.

Nonsense.

If anything, development is one of the best jobs to do remotely due to the need for isolation and quiet during the actual coding process. Even without a sophisticated communication setup, the vast majority of SW dev jobs would probably work out just fine with only one office day a week where everyone could collaborate/meet/bullshit together, and then the rest of the week go off to do their separate tasks. For everything else, Slack or a scheduled GoToMeeting/Webex works just fine for sharing ideas or asking questions.

Orgs that require their developers to always be on-site typically have outdated concepts of managing people (non-tech F500s), a broken communication and planning process, or just want to pressure their employees into working more hours. Even if there is a small drop in efficiency with a fully remote team, those remote workers are likely to be far more satisfied with their jobs (1). Also, as a company, you can broaden your search to include more candidates than those within a ~60 minute driving distance.


(1) https://insights.stackoverflow.com/...#job-priorities

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


If you have a good product team who can provide a decent spec and good engineers, remote kicks rear end. If your product team sucks and you have to incessantly meet with them and pester them, remote sucks worse than working in office with them (which, also, sucks).

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

B-Nasty posted:

Nonsense.

If anything, development is one of the best jobs to do remotely due to the need for isolation and quiet during the actual coding process. Even without a sophisticated communication setup, the vast majority of SW dev jobs would probably work out just fine with only one office day a week where everyone could collaborate/meet/bullshit together, and then the rest of the week go off to do their separate tasks. For everything else, Slack or a scheduled GoToMeeting/Webex works just fine for sharing ideas or asking questions.

Orgs that require their developers to always be on-site typically have outdated concepts of managing people (non-tech F500s), a broken communication and planning process, or just want to pressure their employees into working more hours. Even if there is a small drop in efficiency with a fully remote team, those remote workers are likely to be far more satisfied with their jobs (1). Also, as a company, you can broaden your search to include more candidates than those within a ~60 minute driving distance.


(1) https://insights.stackoverflow.com/...#job-priorities

God forbid a developer have like, a physical piece of hardware they need to test on. Unthinkable in the year 2018, must be evidence of outdated management processes.

Code entry, and therefore typing proficiency, is the limiting factor of the majority of development.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


JawnV6 posted:

a physical piece of hardware they need to test on

I think you just invented the Uber... but for... delivering testing hardware to remote developers....

rt4
Feb 19, 2008


Grimey Drawer

all my hardware's fully abstracted tyvm

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


For some bizarre reason I'm being asked whether I am interested in a front-end team lead position. I don't know how to break it to them that they're really barking up the wrong tree.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

My fingers are set to vibrate


Good Will Hrunting posted:

I think you just invented the Uber... but for... delivering testing hardware to remote developers....

If you have to ship product to your remotes every time you iterate on the hardware design, you're introducing a lot of delays and potentially nontrivial expense. Plus of course the chance that the product gets damaged in shipping -- prototypes aren't necessarily all that robust.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


TooMuchAbstraction posted:

If you have to ship product to your remotes every time you iterate on the hardware design, you're introducing a lot of delays and potentially nontrivial expense. Plus of course the chance that the product gets damaged in shipping -- prototypes aren't necessarily all that robust.

I wasn't serious at all, lol

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





Wait, hang on lads, are you saying that.. are you saying that some workloads and roles are best done on site, while others are best offsite, and yet more somewhere in between?

ARE YOU SUGGESTING THERE MAY BE A MIDDLE GROUND?

Extraordinary.

Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008


Jaded Burnout posted:

Extra ordinary.

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

Jaded Burnout posted:

Wait, hang on lads, are you saying that.. are you saying that some workloads and roles are best done on site, while others are best offsite, and yet more somewhere in between?

ARE YOU SUGGESTING THERE MAY BE A MIDDLE GROUND?

Extraordinary.
No, no, All Development That Matters looks exactly like my container-slinging remote work, any delta from this platonic ideal can best be explained as a failure of management, possibly even personal failure of the developers involved to be looking out for their own happiness!

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

If you have to ship product to your remotes every time you iterate on the hardware design, you're introducing a lot of delays and potentially nontrivial expense. Plus of course the chance that the product gets damaged in shipping -- prototypes aren't necessarily all that robust.
There's exactly one of these test cards in existence, it cost us 6 figures of NRE.... yo can we get a cheap bike courier to carry this thing around??

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Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


JawnV6 posted:

There's exactly one of these test cards in existence, it cost us 6 figures of NRE.... yo can we get a cheap bike courier to carry this thing around??

Are you saying hardware is worth more than a human life

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