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Skandranon
Sep 6, 2008
fucking stupid, dont listen to me

Pollyanna posted:

The idea that you live to work instead of work to live is a fallacy steeped in puritan work ethic and capitalist exploitation. Your job isn't the only thing about you, and a life on the whole is a terrible thing to waste. Remember that this is ultimately a means to an end, that end being properly balancing financial stability and a fulfilling life.

I would say this isn't quite true. You definitely should not be devoting yourself to a particular company, as they are unlikely to reciprocate, or a job just to stack cash, but you do live to work. In the sense that we are essentially beasts of burden and if we don't have some major responsibility to carry, we feel our lives are empty and meaningless. If you can have a meaningful career, that is great, but most people don't have that, they have jobs. You need to find something meaningful elsewhere to make your horrible life and horrible job worthwhile.

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Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





B-Nasty posted:

That boring, intranet, CRUD app you're writing is probably saving the company tens of thousands of dollars every year. A good engineer can easily add value and increase profits that are measured in multiples of their cost. I mean, there's a reason why even non-tech companies are paying Jr. SE salaries that probably equal or exceed what they pay their middle-managers with decades of experience.

Yeah this is what I meant by being one few layer away from profit than IT who still struggle to make their value apparent.

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





Also, I used to enjoy my work and was perilously close to Find a Job You Love and You'll Never Work a Day In Your Life but then I became a Jaded Burnout and now I would lie face down in bed all day if I could get away with it.

fantastic in plastic
Jun 15, 2007

The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.


Find a job with conditions you can tolerate and accept that all human action is futile considering the inevitable embrace of death, and you'll never work a day in your life

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


How has nobody monetized the misery of working a 9-5 yet? I mean we've basically successfully monetized poverty via continually raising the barriers to entry into these white collar jobs and handing out literally the be$$$$t jobs to white males but what if you're a white male who doesn't want this? What about me, forums poster Good Will Hrunting?

Oh wait I guess coding bootcamps are kinda monetizing misery in office life outside dev because they "pay for you to quit".

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

Good Will Hrunting posted:

How has nobody monetized the misery of working a 9-5 yet?

Isn't that just a paycheck?

If your company isn't giving you one of those you should probably talk to someone

The Fool
Oct 16, 2003



I thought selling alcohol was the monetization of misery.

fantastic in plastic
Jun 15, 2007

The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.


People monetize the misery of working office jobs by selling self-help and get-rich-quick books, becoming motivational speakers, and so on.

metztli
Mar 19, 2006
Which lead to the obvious photoshop, making me suspect that their ad agencies or creative types must be aware of what goes on at SA

I would rather enjoy the work and hate the job than the reverse. I quit a stupidly well paying job with nice people and a decent environment when I realized that my job would literally never change. They had people who were doing, functionally, the same stuff they had been doing for the previous 10 years, and that just ain't me. Intellectually I can understand how people would take jobs like that, but emotionally I can't even begin to understand it.

B-Nasty
May 25, 2005



Oh no! Sitting in an air conditioned office -- actually, my house -- and punching little keys with my soft hands earns me an income that places me in the top 99% of the world's population and >90% of the USA, which, by the way, is the richest country/nation to have ever existed. I also have a good amount of autonomy and get a fair amount of respect just building conceptual things using (mostly) a creative process.

If I was born 200 years ago, or hell, many other places on this planet, today, I'd likely be a poor, dirt-farmer that struggles to find enough to eat on a daily basis.

Shut up already with all the existential angst and just get on with it.

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





You're right, I enjoy to sacrifice my psyche on the table of capitalism, things being worse elsewhere definitely removes all bad things from our lives.

The Fool
Oct 16, 2003



I'm going to get a 100% remote job and then move to a 3rd world country so I can live like a literal king.

B-Nasty
May 25, 2005



Jaded Burnout posted:

You're right, I enjoy to sacrifice my psyche on the table of capitalism, things being worse elsewhere definitely removes all bad things from our lives.

Just trying to provide a little perspective. There are many, many people that would trade their truly miserable jobs (with objectively bad aspects) for ours if they had the ability.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


B-Nasty posted:

Just trying to provide a little perspective. There are many, many people that would trade their truly miserable jobs (with objectively bad aspects) for ours if they had the ability.

Yeah but the good side of this debate is actually "lets get rid of this being able to happen because it's unfair as gently caress" not "shut up you filthy millenial". Also mental health is insanely important, and discussing that in a career thread where mental health issues are probably pretty prevalent seems ok to me, but I see where you're coming from. It comes off as whiny.

Portland Sucks
Dec 21, 2004
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

B-Nasty posted:

Just trying to provide a little perspective. There are many, many people that would trade their truly miserable jobs (with objectively bad aspects) for ours if they had the ability.

This perspective isn't ever helpful though. It's like telling a homeless man that his hunger doesn't matter because his belly isn't distended like "KIDS IN AFRICA" yet.

If you aren't happy you aren't happy end of story. The floor of potential human misery isn't really relative at that point.

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.

Pillbug

Portland Sucks posted:

This perspective isn't ever helpful though. It's like telling a homeless man that his hunger doesn't matter because his belly isn't distended like "KIDS IN AFRICA" yet.

If you aren't happy you aren't happy end of story. The floor of potential human misery isn't really relative at that point.

I find it helpful. I doubt itd bring me back from the brink of misery, but it can turn a stressful day of work into "nah, wasnt so bad".

Smugworth
Apr 18, 2003

Well, I've got brain damage on the side of my brain, and I don't know which side, left or right, where I huffed gasoline for ten long years.


The Fool posted:

I'm going to get a 100% remote job and then move to a 3rd world country so I can live like a literal king.

How's satellite internet these days?

The Fool
Oct 16, 2003



Smugworth posted:

How's satellite internet these days?

Latency is still bad, but most other problems are solved, and is more than good enough to manage aws/gcp/azure and git push

metztli
Mar 19, 2006
Which lead to the obvious photoshop, making me suspect that their ad agencies or creative types must be aware of what goes on at SA

Portland Sucks posted:

This perspective isn't ever helpful though. It's like telling a homeless man that his hunger doesn't matter because his belly isn't distended like "KIDS IN AFRICA" yet.

If you aren't happy you aren't happy end of story. The floor of potential human misery isn't really relative at that point.

Yeah, generally speaking trying to ignore one's own unhappiness because others have it worse is a short term aid at best, a long term harm at worst, and not even close to a substitute for developing real coping skills.

I used to very much be a stoic type, and all that lead to was depression and anxiety, and I'd feel like a complete failure because why couldn't I just shake it off and move on? What wound up working for me was cognitive reframing. Generally, it's taking negative thoughts and feelings you have, acknowledging them, but then making a conscious effort to think of ways that you can grow from them. For example:

"My boss is a dick, I hate my life" - there's nothing you can do with that thought, other than ruminate on it and feel miserable. Consciously choosing to think instead, "My boss is a dick, so I will use this as an opportunity to practice dealing with an unpleasant and difficult person, and that will help me in my career" is useful, positive, and leads to a course of action.

"I loving hate looking for jobs because it's so stressful and what if I pick the wrong one and have to do it again" becomes "I loving hate looking for jobs, but it's an inevitable part of this career. I'm going to focus on getting really good at it so that even if the next job doesn't work out, it won't be nearly as hard to go looking again."

It sounds corny as gently caress, but it definitely helped me. After years of doing it I hardly ever wind up ruminating on the negative, and while I still have some low points, generally speaking I'm able to dig myself out of them pretty quickly because I almost reflexively look for ways to grow from my problems and reduce the downside.

Love Stole the Day
Nov 4, 2012


The Fool posted:

I'm going to get a 100% remote job and then move to a 3rd world country so I can live like a literal king.

Did this for a while. It's pretty nice if you have the personality for it. A lot of people burn out or get cynical over the years due to language barriers. It comes and goes in phases.


edit-- vvvvv will PM

Love Stole the Day fucked around with this message at Jan 31, 2018 around 01:53

metztli
Mar 19, 2006
Which lead to the obvious photoshop, making me suspect that their ad agencies or creative types must be aware of what goes on at SA

Love Stole the Day posted:

Did this for a while. It's pretty nice if you have the personality for it. A lot of people burn out or get cynical over the years due to language barriers. It comes and goes in phases.

How long for and where? I'm debating trying something like in a few years.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

My fingers are set to vibrate


Fun Shoe

While it is of course absolutely right to say that most programmers have an objectively good life, it is worth remembering that programming sucks.

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

Is a saint not entitled to the skin of his foot?





Skandranon posted:

I would say this isn't quite true. You definitely should not be devoting yourself to a particular company, as they are unlikely to reciprocate, or a job just to stack cash, but you do live to work. In the sense that we are essentially beasts of burden and if we don't have some major responsibility to carry, we feel our lives are empty and meaningless. If you can have a meaningful career, that is great, but most people don't have that, they have jobs. You need to find something meaningful elsewhere to make your horrible life and horrible job worthwhile.

Good Will Hrunting posted:

How has nobody monetized the misery of working a 9-5 yet? I mean we've basically successfully monetized poverty via continually raising the barriers to entry into these white collar jobs and handing out literally the be$$$$t jobs to white males but what if you're a white male who doesn't want this? What about me, forums poster Good Will Hrunting?

Oh wait I guess coding bootcamps are kinda monetizing misery in office life outside dev because they "pay for you to quit".
The answer for why people are so miserable, even workers in a relatively privileged job like software development, is that they essentially live in a dictatorship in the workplace. Someone else controls your life for ~40+ hours/week. Sure you get some autonomy, but your life is still under the auspices of someone else telling you what to do and deciding what to do with what you have produced.

The other issue is that your primary role in life in the workplace is to make more money for some tiny group of assholes. You are not allowed to have a more noble primary goal like improving society or whatever.

The solution to a hierarchical undemocratic rule by a tiny minority should jump out at you: democracy.

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

comedyblissoption posted:

The answer for why people are so miserable, even workers in a relatively privileged job like software development, is that they essentially live in a dictatorship in the workplace. Someone else controls your life for ~40+ hours/week. Sure you get some autonomy, but your life is still under the auspices of someone else telling you what to do and deciding what to do with what you have produced.

The other issue is that your primary role in life in the workplace is to make more money for some tiny group of assholes. You are not allowed to have a more noble primary goal like improving society or whatever.

The solution to a hierarchical undemocratic rule by a tiny minority should jump out at you: democracy.

Geez is this is the mindset no wonder you guys are miserable.

I get paid way more money than I ever thought I'd make doing something I enjoy doing. Sure it's boring and/or annoying sometimes, but I'm happy and incredibly lucky overall. I get to travel and take nice vacations, I can afford anything I need and most of the things I really want. I can provide for my family, give my mom things she never would have been able to experience otherwise, donate to causes I really care about, and eventually give my children more opportunities than I had growing up.

Coming from a childhood where sometimes dinner was microwaved cheese slices I'm constantly amazed at how unbelievably lucky I am to be doing what I'm doing.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

My fingers are set to vibrate


Fun Shoe

comedyblissoption posted:

The answer for why people are so miserable, even workers in a relatively privileged job like software development, is that they essentially live in a dictatorship in the workplace. Someone else controls your life for ~40+ hours/week. Sure you get some autonomy, but your life is still under the auspices of someone else telling you what to do and deciding what to do with what you have produced.

That may be the reason why you (think you) are miserable, but it's not gonna be the same for everyone else, not just because their work circumstances are different, but because they have different motivations and outlooks. What one person perceives as a dictatorship, another person sees as necessary teamwork, for example. I mean, I'm not saying that everything can be spun in a positive light; rear end in a top hat bosses are rear end in a top hat bosses. But you don't honestly believe that everyone has an rear end in a top hat boss, do you?

My hot take on this is that you can be miserable no matter how well-off you are, and part of life is learning what makes you happy and figuring out how best to achieve your own happiness. This isn't so much "you have to choose to be happy" so much as it is "you have the opportunity to pursue happiness, so loving take it". Why you would choose to stay in a situation that makes you miserable, when because of your background you have so many better options, is beyond me.

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

Is a saint not entitled to the skin of his foot?





TooMuchAbstraction posted:

That may be the reason why you (think you) are miserable, but it's not gonna be the same for everyone else, not just because their work circumstances are different, but because they have different motivations and outlooks. What one person perceives as a dictatorship, another person sees as necessary teamwork, for example. I mean, I'm not saying that everything can be spun in a positive light; rear end in a top hat bosses are rear end in a top hat bosses. But you don't honestly believe that everyone has an rear end in a top hat boss, do you?
I am talking about the organization of most major American businesses where people work. Your middle manager or direct boss or whatever isn't the dictator. The dictators are the major shareholders who own the company followed by the board of directors and chief executives they appoint.

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

My hot take on this is that you can be miserable no matter how well-off you are, and part of life is learning what makes you happy and figuring out how best to achieve your own happiness. This isn't so much "you have to choose to be happy" so much as it is "you have the opportunity to pursue happiness, so loving take it". Why you would choose to stay in a situation that makes you miserable, when because of your background you have so many better options, is beyond me.
Work should be a fulfilling life experience. Unfortunately, we attach depraved conditions to work in this society so that most people who work are miserable at work.

Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008


I was abused by a former boss into near suicide so y'all people minimizing the impact of suffering because it can be worse can gently caress right off. I tried that coping strategy and all it did was make me gaslight myself into not making the changes I should have or getting the help that I really needed.

Yeah, I have more creature comforts than people with much worse jobs. I have had the privilege of having a public education, among other things. I also worked hard to get here from a poor family with no generational wealth except for some questionably valuable heirlooms that got stolen by the drug dealer next door when I was barely into elementary school. I sacrificed a degree from a top engineering school to enter the workforce early because I couldn't afford it even with in-state public school tuition, before all the tuition hikes in the past decade.

There are a lot of things your boss can do to make your life miserable no matter how well air conditioned your room, no matter how flexible your work location or schedule, and just because they haven't done it or you haven't experienced it doesn't give you the right to tell people to pipe down and be grateful. gently caress that, I am grateful for the things I've fought for and earned, and yeah, it could have been worse. I could have killed myself, or I could have managed not to successfully recover from a lot of pain and anger, and started abusing medication or drugs, or lingered in a deep depression I never pulled myself out from. I almost did, on all counts. I count myself extremely lucky that I've managed to pull myself back into relative happiness despite everything.

Essentially saying "nut up or shut up" because you came from harsh circumstances makes you an rear end in a top hat. I and my family did come from harsh circumstances, bad enough that one of my parents sacrificed their health for those circumstances and is dead in part because of that loss of health. So I think I am qualified to say that it ain't helpful. Grow some god-drat empathy and think twice before tearing down people who seem like they have first world problems. Maybe they will get better if they gain perspective by internalizing the facts of what others experience, but the starting point is absolutely, absolutely not "look at how good you actually have it", and maybe you don't have a clue what somebody else has gone through and how bad that'll come off.

Keetron
Sep 26, 2008

Check out my enormous testicles in my TFLC log!

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

While it is of course absolutely right to say that most programmers have an objectively good life, it is worth remembering that programming sucks.

That link is a good link.



Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008



Yep. Sorry. It really sets me off when people try to compare suffering to suffering like that.

Skandranon
Sep 6, 2008
fucking stupid, dont listen to me

comedyblissoption posted:

I am talking about the organization of most major American businesses where people work. Your middle manager or direct boss or whatever isn't the dictator. The dictators are the major shareholders who own the company followed by the board of directors and chief executives they appoint.

Work should be a fulfilling life experience. Unfortunately, we attach depraved conditions to work in this society so that most people who work are miserable at work.

So, I guess, now, da tovarisch?

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





I started in a low paying high stress job and I was content because I hadn't failed. I moved to medium paying medium stress jobs and I was happy because I was succeeding. Then I got to high paying jobs at a wide range of stress levels, and it broke me because I caught a glimpse of a life where I didn't have to work 9-5 but I couldn't quite get there. A glimpse behind the curtain to a much more fulfilling life than I'd had before, outside of my reach. I became the Jaded Burnout.

Working a good job is like having your feet broken by a very kind and apologetic person using a much softer hammer. They might be nicer about it but you still can't walk away.

Blinkz0rz
May 27, 2001

MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

Having terrible bosses and working at terrible companies is terrible. We're lucky that we have a ton of job mobility and our skills are in high demand.

Doh004
Apr 22, 2007

Mmmmm Donuts...

Whoa hey, this thread just got really serious.

Software engineering generally occurs in a a physically cushy environment while having a high level of mental pressure, similar to any other office based skilled labor. We just happen to be in an excellent (bubble?) market right now so we have more leverage than others. Doesn't mean that lasts forever and it doesn't mean everyone is exactly in that same position.

Finding that proper work-life balance has been key for me in order to not burn out. Do the work that enables the life that you want to live. If that's working 9-5 (let's be real, you know it's 10-6) then do it. If it's working remotely from your home, freelancing on contracts or bootstrapping your own site/app/business, cool. Programming enables all of that quite easily.

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

Don't get me wrong, there are lovely situations and people in lovely situations are allowed to be miserable, my objection is to the idea that every situation is inherently lovely. If that's your outlook then you do you but it sounds like a miserable way to spend the rest of your life.

B-Nasty
May 25, 2005



Jaded Burnout posted:

Working a good job is like having your feet broken by a very kind and apologetic person using a much softer hammer. They might be nicer about it but you still can't walk away.

That's just plain ridiculous.

I don't know what country you're in, but I could literally walk out the door at work right now, and absolutely nothing bad would happen to me. I would, however, need to find something to do to put food on the table once my savings ran out. Which, is the whole reason why I won't walk out the door: we have an arrangement where I move bytes around, and they pay me enough money that I can easily obtain the base of Maslow's pyramid.

If you dread your job or your industry, or you are in an abusive situation you should definitely change it, but in other cases, your outlook really does affect your day-to-day happiness.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


Wage slavery is still slavery. The necessity to do what you're doing is wage slavery. Whether or not you think that's right depends on your beliefs but I personally feel the working world would be a much better place with a baseline income that at least helped people afford the necessities and gave them some flexibility with respect to how much they worked, where they worked, etc without having the immediate pressing need to work to not literally starve or pay $20,000 upon a hospital visit and the like.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


The thing that bugs me the most about the industry is how touch-and-go it is. Most jobs seem to last 2-3 years, and there isn't much potential for nice, long-term employment where I don't have to go job hunting three or four times a decade. Plus, the jobs that do exist are in an industry that has taken "fire fast" to a bizarre degree, to the point where it's difficult to trust that a company genuinely understands its needs and won't just change its mind out of nowhere after hiring you. Then there's companies that depend on the whims of VC funding, depend on a customer base and product that don't even exist yet, depend on a pre-existing market that would result in major losses if it left...it's like it's held up with sticks and stones.

There's a level of trust necessary between an employee and their employer to make that Maslow tradeoff work, and in my current job search at least I've come across a lot of employers that haven't proven themselves to be stable enough to keep that trust up. Maybe I just come from a world that's based entirely around going through long educational periods, then finding one job to stick to for 40+ years (medicine), but it's hard to see myself doing this when I'm 30 or 40 and feeling like I've really made it somewhere in life.

Skandranon posted:

So, I guess, now, da tovarisch?

fully-automated gay luxury space communism or fuckin bust, and i am only half joking about that

Skandranon
Sep 6, 2008
fucking stupid, dont listen to me

Good Will Hrunting posted:

Wage slavery is still slavery. The necessity to do what you're doing is wage slavery. Whether or not you think that's right depends on your beliefs but I personally feel the working world would be a much better place with a baseline income that at least helped people afford the necessities and gave them some flexibility with respect to how much they worked, where they worked, etc without having the immediate pressing need to work to not literally starve or pay $20,000 upon a hospital visit and the like.

If necessity === slavery, then you are a slave to the world. You need to eat, and food doesn't fall like mana from heaven. Get used to it, as the only way out of this world is to eat a bullet.

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

Pollyanna posted:

Most jobs seem to last 2-3 years, and there isn't much potential for nice, long-term employment where I don't have to go job hunting three or four times a decade. Plus, the jobs that do exist are in an industry that has taken "fire fast" to a bizarre degree, to the point where it's difficult to trust that a company genuinely understands its needs and won't just change its mind out of nowhere after hiring you. Then there's companies that depend on the whims of VC funding, depend on a customer base and product that don't even exist yet, depend on a pre-existing market that would result in major losses if it left...it's like it's held up with sticks and stones.
There are jobs that none of this applies to. The entire industry isn't startups, SV, and lovely companies. They are the "boring" companies with good benefits, ok pay, and a bunch of people who stay there for 30 years. They aren't going to be doing cutting edge stuff or anything, but they are solid jobs that you can stick around in for as long as you care to. I don't know enough about the companies in Boston to tell you who those companies are, but I know that at least 1 exists in Philly.

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Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

I am an air slave

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