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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


Keetron posted:

Yes, I think just about everyone in this thread, myself included, is average and mediocre. Real greatness is so loving rare we should just stop assuming it includes us.

They sure act like it though.

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Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


I'm real GREATNESS

Geting
Really
Easily
Annoyed
Tests
Not
Everworking
Scala
Sucks

Portland Sucks
Dec 21, 2004
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

Assuming a normal distribution, if you aren't average then you have a 50/50 shot of being either really great or really awful. I'm not a big fan of those odds.

Team Average for life baby.

Love Stole the Day
Nov 4, 2012


Fun fact: the slang word that women use for husband in Korean is 평남, which literally means "below average"

edit I am below average

Pixelboy
Sep 13, 2005

Now, I know what you're thinking...


Love Stole the Day posted:

Fun fact: the slang word that women use for husband in Korean is 평남, which literally means "below average"

This explains a few jokes I never understood when I had a team in Korea.

the talent deficit
Dec 20, 2003

self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture







College Slice

Blinkz0rz posted:

Pollyanna, I'm going to drop some hard truths on you.

I've been reading your posts for the better part of at least a year and I've gotta say that in contrast to what you may think, you've drastically overvalued yourself in the market.

You don't have a CS degree, you went to a boot camp. You don't have consistent years of experience, you have a few short stints at companies that didn't work out. You don't have a unique set of skills, you're a pretty bog-standard rails and frontend developer.

I don't say these things to be mean, I say them to help you level-set your expectations. You've been hearing from this thread, the newbie thread, and the interviewing thread in yospos that you (Pollyanna) should always ask for more and that you (Pollyanna) shouldn't settle for an offer, but I'm going to take the other tact and tell you that you're not the kind of person, much less the kind of engineer that should keep pushing for more at this point in your career.

You're not the kind of engineer that should be solving interesting problems because you don't have a track record of doing anything of the sort. You're not the kind of engineer that can negotiate an extra $30k from a company because you don't provide them anything that they can't get for $90k. You're not the kind of engineer that can demand gobs of cash from a big tech company because you're just not good enough.

There are folks who are going to disagree with me but they most likely have a very different perspective than you and I. I've hired a number of Pollyannas during my career and the ones who have been successful are the ones that have understood that they have a toe-hold in the industry by virtue of whatever factor gave them the drive to get through their boot camp. They've taken that and doubled down on it to work harder and smarter than their peers. So far all I've seen is a person who thinks that they've made it simply by virtue of getting a job in tech.

Might I suggest, instead of asking so many questions of this thread that you actually do some honest to god programming. Take this job for whatever they're giving. Don't fight them on the number of hours you work, just go in and do the job. If they're giving you some wiggle room in negotiations ask for a few more % on your bonus. Go in to work, sit down at your laptop and do something productive instead of hemming and hawing about how you think your career should be.

you're like the pollyanna of people who just got made managers

Keetron
Sep 26, 2008

Check out my enormous testicles in my TFLC log!

Portland Sucks posted:

Assuming a normal distribution, if you aren't average then you have a 50/50 shot of being either really great or really awful. I'm not a big fan of those odds.

Team Average for life baby.

Most distributions are a hat, was it not?

Pixelboy
Sep 13, 2005

Now, I know what you're thinking...


the talent deficit posted:

you're like the pollyanna of people who just got made managers

Nothing he said appears to be incorrect, so I'm not sure where this is coming from.

Mniot
May 22, 2003
Not the one you know

Pixelboy posted:

Nothing he said appears to be incorrect, so I'm not sure where this is coming from.

Prior posts in the thread, where Blinkz0rz manages a team of garbage junior devs and makes sweeping generalizations based on that. I thought it was funny, talent deficit.

Pixelboy
Sep 13, 2005

Now, I know what you're thinking...


Mniot posted:

Prior posts in the thread, where Blinkz0rz manages a team of garbage junior devs and makes sweeping generalizations based on that. I thought it was funny, talent deficit.

I suppose I should scroll back

CPColin
Sep 9, 2003

Big ol' smile.

Grimey Drawer

Mniot posted:

Prior posts in the thread, where Blinkz0rz manages a team of garbage junior devs and makes sweeping generalizations based on that. I thought it was funny, talent deficit.



Quality post, talent deficit.

lifg
Dec 4, 2000



Muldoon

Forgot to mention, a former job got into a Daily WTF!

https://thedailywtf.com/articles/wh...is-so-expensive

I was Ians coworker, but Im not in the story. I worked at Optum as a contractor for 4 months before being fired.

Love Stole the Day
Nov 4, 2012


In my goon fan fiction, Blinko is secretly Shirec's boss

the talent deficit
Dec 20, 2003

self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture







College Slice

Love Stole the Day posted:

In my goon fan fiction, Blinko is secretly Shirec's boss

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

I really don't see what in Blinkz0r's posts in this thread brought this on, I even went back and looked his older posts. His posts to Pollyanna have been pretty accurate

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


i thought it was about the tone of the post tbh which was insanely middle management though not at all wrong just a little too Friday Night Lights not enough Friday Night I'm Reading Hacker News Wth My Dick Outt

the talent deficit
Dec 20, 2003

self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture







College Slice

the only good advice in blink0rz's post is that pollyanna should focus on programming and stop worrying about career progression. everything else is terrible advice. no one should be happy for what they're offered or work for bad managers because they're just some upjumped boot camp rails jockey

B-Nasty
May 25, 2005



Jose Valasquez posted:

I really don't see what in Blinkz0r's posts in this thread brought this on, I even went back and looked his older posts. His posts to Pollyanna have been pretty accurate

It was probably his posts hating on remote workers and implying that just because he has control issues and/or Jr Developers that need constant handholding, remote workers aren't as effective as his sweatshop.

That said, his tough love to Pollyanna is dead-on, and I'll forgive his opinion on remote work.

Mniot
May 22, 2003
Not the one you know

Yeah, I mean, I don't really disagree with this bit of advice. But even when you mean it with the best intentions there's no way to say "you should accept a lower salary, longer hours, work much harder, and not complain" and not sound like an rear end in a top hat.

As a derail apology, here are two little stories about managers I've had:

One guy interviewed me and told me he was trying to hire "only A players" and that, to remind himself of this he'd written "A" all around his cubicle. I laughed at this, because I was younger and assumed he was making some kind of joke about that Steve Jobs quote. But when I saw his desk, all the cubes had a little glass wall-topper and he'd written "A A A A A A A" all the way around. I did take the job, though not working under him. Years later, he tried to recruit me to work at his new company but he couldn't remember anything about me or what I'd done (despite that we're LinkedIn connected and I have a passable resume posted).

Another manager was a good schmoozer. Initially, the developers were hopeful because we thought "hey, maybe he can be our missing social skills!" But it turned out he was only skilled at bragging about himself and wasn't even that successful at it. One interesting day I was in three meetings with him: in the first, he told our recruiter that he was looking to hire "a real rock-star developer"; in the second, he told our CTO "I hate 'special snowflakes'! Developers need to learn that they're replaceable"; in the third, he announced to the whole dev team that he was creating an "elite strike-force team" of the best developers to take on all the hard or interesting tasks.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


rename the thread title to "everyone is average except managers they fuckin suck"

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

the talent deficit posted:

no one should be happy for what they're offered
Why not? Why shouldn't currently unemployed Pollyanna be happy with $90k to work for a company she is excited about after bouncing around between jobs for 3 years?

quote:

work for bad managers because they're just some upjumped boot camp rails jockey

I didn't interpret the post as saying she should go work for Shirec's boss or anything, but to accept the fact that no job is going to be perfect and the biggest thing she needs to do is settle in, do a good job, and get experience instead of worrying about finding the perfect career progression and getting paid six figures

mrmcd
Feb 22, 2003



Mods please rename thread "Oldie Programming: Pollyanna career bikeshedding station."

the talent deficit
Dec 20, 2003

self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture







College Slice

Jose Valasquez posted:

I didn't interpret the post as saying she should go work for Shirec's boss or anything, but to accept the fact that no job is going to be perfect and the biggest thing she needs to do is settle in, do a good job, and get experience instead of worrying about finding the perfect career progression and getting paid six figures

he basically told someone he's never met and never worked with that they are a lovely programmer and they should be happy to even have a job offer

Pixelboy
Sep 13, 2005

Now, I know what you're thinking...


the talent deficit posted:

he basically told someone he's never met and never worked with that they are a lovely programmer and they should be happy to even have a job offer

...

...

...

yes?

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


~~*~*~ u AcCepT thE j0b u thInK u DesErVe ~*~*~

Love Stole the Day
Nov 4, 2012


53 applications for February. 2 responses, no interviews.

Both responses were from LinkedIn. One was for a web development company in Utah. Stayed up until 2am for the phone call but it never came. The other was a recruiter in NYC responding to everybody and using his fake LinkedIn job post as a way to find more candidates for the stuff on his desk.

Job applications were mostly for financial tech companies and game development companies and only a few were for web development companies. Received a bunch of feedback on the resume and job search from people I've reached out to in this and other communities. Most of it is just reassurance that I'm doing the right stuff and it's just a matter of numbers and time.

Got in touch with a goon in Latvia who works for a Data Science company. He was very kind and helpful with laying out the road map for what it would take to get a job in that field. Am wary of adding yet another field to try and learn the ropes of in the hopes of getting interviews, but since none of the other ones are working out anyway it's a question of which prospect appears to have the most potential.

One goon in the SA game development Discord recommended reaching out to previous interviewers to ask what the "mismatch" may have been. Tried it out despite advice saying it's a bad idea and thankfully one person at a game development company was kind enough to respond with this:

quote:

hi no worries ${name_here}, in case it helps I think it was simple a matter of experience level for us. I appreciate your interest, and I'd encourage you to keep learning as much as you can about Unreal in case we have positions open up again in the future.

Naturally, this only feeds into that Gen Y curse mentioned in the OP of this thread (i.e. no job b/c no experience, no experience b/c no job).

Since there was pretty much zero luck with anything for February, the current plan is to just stop applying for things for this coming month of March and instead try to spend all of my non-studying productive time on polishing my projects more and finding repos on Github where I can maybe contribute and therefore have things with name brand recognition in the Experience section. The idea being that seeing a name brand repo or whatever would give someone looking at the resume more of a reason to want to schedule an interview. The trend of only ever getting interviews from recruiters cold calling via LinkedIn to ask directly for one seems to be the norm, so improving the LinkedIn profile seems to show the greatest results over anything else.

Pixelboy
Sep 13, 2005

Now, I know what you're thinking...


Good Will Hrunting posted:

~~*~*~ u AcCepT thE j0b u thInK u DesErVe ~*~*~

Strangely enough, Elon hasn't called offering me my own discovery fund yet.

Blinkz0rz
May 27, 2001

MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

B-Nasty posted:

It was probably his posts hating on remote workers and implying that just because he has control issues and/or Jr Developers that need constant handholding, remote workers aren't as effective as his sweatshop.

That said, his tough love to Pollyanna is dead-on, and I'll forgive his opinion on remote work.

Clearly there was a lack of reading comprehension up-thread when we were talking about remote work. My overall point was that the availability of remote work isn't 100% an indicator of good or bad management and that there are many factors that might affect it's availability. In my case it's the age of my team (only created in November) and the distribution of experience among my team members. At other orgs and in other teams the reasons could be different.

There's nothing controversial in saying that there are shades of gray and that sweeping generalizations are a disservice to nuance.

Love Stole the Day posted:

In my goon fan fiction, Blinko is secretly Shirec's boss

Low blow dude

The Dark Wind
Nov 27, 2003

Master of the high hat!

Mniot posted:

One guy interviewed me and told me he was trying to hire "only A players" and that, to remind himself of this he'd written "A" all around his cubicle. I laughed at this, because I was younger and assumed he was making some kind of joke about that Steve Jobs quote. But when I saw his desk, all the cubes had a little glass wall-topper and he'd written "A A A A A A A" all the way around. I did take the job, though not working under him. Years later, he tried to recruit me to work at his new company but he couldn't remember anything about me or what I'd done (despite that we're LinkedIn connected and I have a passable resume posted).

For some reason this reminded me of this old clip.

muon
Sep 13, 2008


Pixelboy posted:

...

...

...

yes?

We can check and see if that's a reasonable statement by just checking the number of lovely programmers in the industry and oh look at that they're very much employed and I've worked with them/been them

Paolomania
Apr 26, 2006



Love Stole the Day posted:

Naturally, this only feeds into that Gen Y curse mentioned in the OP of this thread (i.e. no job b/c no experience, no experience b/c no job).

I think you are thinking about the OP of the newbie thread. This OP is about bitter old farts.

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



Pillbug

Good Will Hrunting posted:

Friday Night I'm Reading Hacker News Wth My Dick Outt

I'm normally all about not kink shaming but uh

strange
Nov 4, 2010

"Who's making lunch?"
Said James.


Are there any UK developers reading this thread?

I'm looking for some salary guidance. I've got 2 years experience writing full stack ASP.NET web apps (the last year has been entirely .NET Core), including a tonne of SQL for MSSQL, Postgres and Oracle. I spent about a year being the goto Python script writer/dev partner support/trainer. I also handle our static documentation sites and their CI pipelines.

Edit: also responsible for the fun fun fun job of teaching my senior colleagues how to write automated tests

I work on the outskirts of London where CoL is cheap and make 39k GBP. My next job move is likely going to be into London proper: what kind of offers should I be entertaining?

strange fucked around with this message at Feb 28, 2018 around 14:20

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





strange posted:

Are there any UK developers reading this thread?

I'm looking for some salary guidance. I've got 2 years experience writing full stack ASP.NET web apps (the last year has been entirely .NET Core), including a tonne of SQL for MSSQL, Postgres and Oracle. I spent about a year being the goto Python script writer/dev partner support/trainer. I also handle our static documentation sites and their CI pipelines.

I work on the outskirts of London where CoL is cheap and make 39k GBP. My next job move is likely going to be into London proper: what kind of offers should I be entertaining?



I've not been a .NET dev for a long time, I'm Rails these days, what do you consider outskirts?

2 good years' experience in Ruby would get you something like 50k (low-mid range), so that may translate to your language/framework. For reference a senior Ruby dev will get 70-90k in London proper.

One thing to bear in mind is that your CoL is going to skyrocket if you move closer than zone 6 and commuting from outside the tube will be 400-600/mo easy.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


Jaded Burnout posted:



I've not been a .NET dev for a long time, I'm Rails these days, what do you consider outskirts?

2 good years' experience in Ruby would get you something like 50k (low-mid range), so that may translate to your language/framework. For reference a senior Ruby dev will get 70-90k in London proper.

One thing to bear in mind is that your CoL is going to skyrocket if you move closer than zone 6 and commuting from outside the tube will be 400-600/mo easy.

Hmm, I kind of expected London to be more expensive than that. I'm surprised to hear you can get 70k~90k GBP in London on the senior end.

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





Pollyanna posted:

Hmm, I kind of expected London to be more expensive than that. I'm surprised to hear you can get 70k~90k GBP in London on the senior end.

Are you surprised that it's that high or that low?

Living in London is horrendously expensive but somehow San Francisco is even worse.

I've never worked for bigcos in London so I don't know what happens in terms of "total compensation" there, these numbers are places with 5 to 200 employees and you can only trust the cash.

Central government civil service pay for a senior Ruby dev tops out at 65k.

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004





Also my experience has been that senior developers typically hit the permie ceiling and go contracting which is more lucrative. That's what I did, though for other reasons.

strange
Nov 4, 2010

"Who's making lunch?"
Said James.


Jaded Burnout posted:



I've not been a .NET dev for a long time, I'm Rails these days, what do you consider outskirts?

2 good years' experience in Ruby would get you something like 50k (low-mid range), so that may translate to your language/framework. For reference a senior Ruby dev will get 70-90k in London proper.

One thing to bear in mind is that your CoL is going to skyrocket if you move closer than zone 6 and commuting from outside the tube will be 400-600/mo easy.

I'm not from the southeast so my definition of outskirts might be slightly off - I'm outside the zone system, but able to get Nat Rail trains into central London in less than half an hour. Rent is 950 - 1100 for a 2 bed flat. 700-1000 for 1.

It sounds like I'd need an offer of at least 55k to break even.

Is there any truth to the idea that you have to consult to make the big bucks in the UK? *eyes American salaries wistfully*

Edit: just seen your previous reply. Thanks!

strange fucked around with this message at Feb 28, 2018 around 14:40

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


Jaded Burnout posted:

Are you surprised that it's that high or that low?

Living in London is horrendously expensive but somehow San Francisco is even worse.

I've never worked for bigcos in London so I don't know what happens in terms of "total compensation" there, these numbers are places with 5 to 200 employees and you can only trust the cash.

Central government civil service pay for a senior Ruby dev tops out at 65k.

That high - I usually hear 40k~50k for London, but I may be wrong.

Those outside-the-zone flat/apartment prices are much nicer than Boston, at least

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Naar
Aug 19, 2003

The Time of the Eye is now

strange posted:

Is there any truth to the idea that you have to consult to make the big bucks in the UK? *eyes American salaries wistfully*
In my (Manchester-based) experience, yes. The highest permie salary I've seen here was ~90k and typically technical lead-type roles will be ~70 - 80k, while as a contractor I can get more than that without too much trouble.

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