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baquerd
Jul 2, 2007
I'M A FUCKING IDIOT



Kyth posted:

I also haven't seen evidence of "most POC and women devs are choosing to walk away" in any of the retention data for the several thousand engineers in the nearest groups around me, but obviously ymmv.

People who internalize the belief they are oppressed really hate to think they are actually being judged on their merits.

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Kyth
Jun 7, 2011

Professional windmill tilter

baquerd posted:

People who internalize the belief they are oppressed really hate to think they are actually being judged on their merits.

I could happily post the long series of misogyny that has decorated my life in tech, but it's likely not worth my time if this is your takeaway from my post given everything that has happened in the industry.

Novel concept: it can be poo poo to be a not-white-male in tech and yet also able to succeed: it's just harder. Just because I run a team of several hundred engineers doesn't mean there's no sexism in the industry.

Google has been the best place to be a woman in tech in the 20+ years I've been working and I've still run into sexism here.

There's an internal list that shares stories of what women, POC, LGBTQ, etc folks experience to help show people that yes, even though Google is great, this poo poo still happens at Google and we need to all be better at preventing it.

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Bzzt Bzzt!

baquerd posted:

People who internalize the belief they are oppressed really hate to think they are actually being judged on their merits.

The merits of this post are bad.

baquerd
Jul 2, 2007
I'M A FUCKING IDIOT



Kyth posted:

I could happily post the long series of misogyny that has decorated my life in tech, but it's likely not worth my time if this is your takeaway from my post given everything that has happened in the industry.

Novel concept: it can be poo poo to be a not-white-male in tech and yet also able to succeed: it's just harder. Just because I run a team of several hundred engineers doesn't mean there's no sexism in the industry.

Google has been the best place to be a woman in tech in the 20+ years I've been working and I've still run into sexism here.

There's an internal list that shares stories of what women, POC, LGBTQ, etc folks experience to help show people that yes, even though Google is great, this poo poo still happens at Google and we need to all be better at preventing it.

Not my takeaway from your post, it's just that I believe that it's not healthy to start out with an attitude of assuming and looking for oppression that often doesn't exist. The incidence rate and severity matter a lot here to what I see as an often disproportionate response where, for example, a single inappropriate sentence uttered without thought wrecks otherwise excellent careers instead of being viewed as an opportunity for education, or where someone is constantly looking to take offense as a form of self validation.

1-800-DOCTORB
Nov 5, 2009


baquerd posted:

People who internalize the belief they are oppressed really hate to think they are actually being judged on their merits.

baquerd posted:

No one's saying slaveowners were better than that, just that slaveowners that didn't take care of their slaves got sub-par returns over the long run. If you look at the most successful slave-owners, you would expect to see a general pattern of excellent treatment of well-behaved slaves.

Shirec
Jul 29, 2009

How to cock it up, Fig. I



Fallen Rib

^ ^ ^

Kyth posted:

I'm pretty senior and a female leader (management ladder) at Google and haven't had issues, I'm actually really good at recruiting and retaining internal folks.

I also haven't seen evidence of "most POC and women devs are choosing to walk away" in any of the retention data for the several thousand engineers in the nearest groups around me, but obviously ymmv.



Perhaps I may have been talking out of my rear end then! I would swear I saw something recently that said Google's diversity numbers showed they were having trouble with retention, but I can't seem to find it. I'll defer to your expertise. It's good to know that, even though it could be better, it's still good at one of the dream companies. Apologies for my misrepresentation

Kyth
Jun 7, 2011

Professional windmill tilter

Shirec posted:

Perhaps I may have been talking out of my rear end then! I would swear I saw something recently that said Google's diversity numbers showed they were having trouble with retention, but I can't seem to find it. I'll defer to your expertise. It's good to know that, even though it could be better, it's still good at one of the dream companies. Apologies for my misrepresentation

Hey look, someone worth replying to!

There have been high profile issues but there are everywhere that hire people in sufficiently high quantities; you still have the problems of the society you are in no matter how hard you try. You can just be "better", there is no perfect. I've worked at other big name tech firms and it was much worse.

I run a large enough group that I see a lot of problems and I also see how impossible the imagined scenario of "a careless unthinking sentence that would've been fixed by a bit of education but unfortunately some hyperactive bitch used it to destroy their career" is. I've had to fire people over issues and the amount of data we needed was way more than a sentence that could be fixed with more emotional labor from the woman it was directed to.

Janitor Prime
Jan 22, 2004

PC LOAD LETTER

What da fuck does that mean



Shirec posted:

^ ^ ^




Perhaps I may have been talking out of my rear end then! I would swear I saw something recently that said Google's diversity numbers showed they were having trouble with retention, but I can't seem to find it. I'll defer to your expertise. It's good to know that, even though it could be better, it's still good at one of the dream companies. Apologies for my misrepresentation

IIRC it wasn't about retention but after that fiasco with the dev that went on a rampage on how SJWs are ruining Google they tried to make changes in their hiring practices to get more diverse hires and then after a year reviewed and saw no noticeable improvements on minorities. Women however did go up!

Phobeste
Apr 9, 2006

never, like, count out Touchdown Tom, man

Grimey Drawer


Insanely powerful

Shirec
Jul 29, 2009

How to cock it up, Fig. I



Fallen Rib

Kyth posted:

Hey look, someone worth replying to!

There have been high profile issues but there are everywhere that hire people in sufficiently high quantities; you still have the problems of the society you are in no matter how hard you try. You can just be "better", there is no perfect. I've worked at other big name tech firms and it was much worse.

I run a large enough group that I see a lot of problems and I also see how impossible the imagined scenario of "a careless unthinking sentence that would've been fixed by a bit of education but unfortunately some hyperactive bitch used it to destroy their career" is. I've had to fire people over issues and the amount of data we needed was way more than a sentence that could be fixed with more emotional labor from the woman it was directed to.

I'm really glad someone as awesome as you is out there doing good work

Janitor Prime posted:

IIRC it wasn't about retention but after that fiasco with the dev that went on a rampage on how SJWs are ruining Google they tried to make changes in their hiring practices to get more diverse hires and then after a year reviewed and saw no noticeable improvements on minorities. Women however did go up!

Perhaps that is where I got it muddled then. I know that wherever I land (deciding on that tomorrow!), I want to throw myself fully behind helping out in those areas. Hopefully Google can continue to refine the process and maybe they'll have a breakthrough and that will spread out like all the algorithm/CtCI testing did for interviews.

baquerd
Jul 2, 2007
I'M A FUCKING IDIOT




This may have gone over my head, can you please explain it? What I think you're saying is that, regardless of whether we are talking about literal slaves or people who have experienced microaggressions, the concept of a privileged/ruling class passing judgement on their merits is wrong?

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

The intent of the "don't go to meetings" and "don't work on teams you don't like" rules is to detect when the above systems are failing. If you have a PM or manager or whatever that schedules too many meetings, if you're getting bogged down in "syncs", you can point to this rule as justification for why you're not attending them, even if your schedule is nominally free.
Okay, you acted like team-hopping was a routine thing that happens all the time and is culturally encouraged, not a complete breakdown of management/PM responsibilities necessitating an extreme IC reaction to unfortunate circumstances? But sure, it's both ways.

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

I can't deny this possibility. There are absolutely issues of systemic subtle (or not-so-subtle) repression, harassment, under-promotion, etc throughout the entire industry. I'd like to think that the majority of devs aren't assholes enough to not want to have a woman above them in the management chain, such that the ones who are that level of rear end in a top hat and do leave don't sabotage the team by doing so. I don't have any statistics either way, though.

But again, the underlying principle behind all this is that you can't force people to work on your team. If they don't like the environment, they'll walk away and find a job somewhere else. If you don't give people the freedom to say no to meetings that they don't think are useful, then they'll look for another team; if you deny them the option to move to a different team within the company, then they'll go to a different team in a different company. They might do that anyway!
Okay, I don't think an exit interview for a senior software engineer at say, Qualcomm, is going to be "saw a meeting invite, bolted for the door." Over here, outside of goog, I've seen companies bend over backwards to meet talent halfway including mgmt->IC moves, 6+ month sabbaticals for personal/family leave. All the "force" language sounds like propaganda.

An rear end in a top hat reading of "if you don't think you're getting anything useful out of a meeting, don't go to it" is "I don't have to teach, mentor, or otherwise share my knowledge with others" which strikes me as a person I'd rather not hire. It's the line & logic Musk used to hang up on the NTSB Chief, which still doesn't strike me as an aspirational example.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

Fly on these secondhand wings
Willing to find out
What impossible means
I'll climb through the ladder
On feathers and dreams


JawnV6 posted:

An rear end in a top hat reading of "if you don't think you're getting anything useful out of a meeting, don't go to it" is "I don't have to teach, mentor, or otherwise share my knowledge with others"

My VP of Engineering that I've mentioned literally told HR he "will not come to the office until it's quiet" and came in for about... 4? days over the span of 6 weeks. It's not the quietest place in the world, but by 5:10pm you can hear a pin drop.

Munkeymon posted:

There already is a SA Code (or Dev, maybe?) Discord. I'll try to remember to see about posting an invite link when I get home.

apseudonym
Feb 25, 2011



JawnV6 posted:

Okay, you acted like team-hopping was a routine thing that happens all the time and is culturally encouraged, not a complete breakdown of management/PM responsibilities necessitating an extreme IC reaction to unfortunate circumstances? But sure, it's both ways.
It's not discouraged if you want to switch, I've known people who switch every year or two to avoid getting bored.

quote:

Okay, I don't think an exit interview for a senior software engineer at say, Qualcomm, is going to be "saw a meeting invite, bolted for the door." Over here, outside of goog, I've seen companies bend over backwards to meet talent halfway including mgmt->IC moves, 6+ month sabbaticals for personal/family leave. All the "force" language sounds like propaganda.

An rear end in a top hat reading of "if you don't think you're getting anything useful out of a meeting, don't go to it" is "I don't have to teach, mentor, or otherwise share my knowledge with others" which strikes me as a person I'd rather not hire. It's the line & logic Musk used to hang up on the NTSB Chief, which still doesn't strike me as an aspirational example.
Maybe you're reading into it something that isn't there? Teaching/etc is a reason to be there (also God help you if your mentoring is only done in meetings), "here's a regularly scheduled meeting you don't need to be in" is a reason not to waste your time.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

My fingers are set to vibrate


JawnV6 posted:

Okay, you acted like team-hopping was a routine thing that happens all the time and is culturally encouraged, not a complete breakdown of management/PM responsibilities necessitating an extreme IC reaction to unfortunate circumstances? But sure, it's both ways.

I view it like moving to a new apartment/house: it's enough of a pain in the rear end that I don't want to do it regularly, but I'd feel horribly constrained if it weren't an option.

I don't have any statistics to back this up, but I'd guess that most people don't change teams of their own volition (i.e. not counting reorgs) more often than once every few years.

quote:

Okay, I don't think an exit interview for a senior software engineer at say, Qualcomm, is going to be "saw a meeting invite, bolted for the door." Over here, outside of goog, I've seen companies bend over backwards to meet talent halfway including mgmt->IC moves, 6+ month sabbaticals for personal/family leave. All the "force" language sounds like propaganda.

An rear end in a top hat reading of "if you don't think you're getting anything useful out of a meeting, don't go to it" is "I don't have to teach, mentor, or otherwise share my knowledge with others" which strikes me as a person I'd rather not hire. It's the line & logic Musk used to hang up on the NTSB Chief, which still doesn't strike me as an aspirational example.

To be clear, this isn't carte blanche to not do your job. You're expected to show good judgement about what meetings are actually important. This is basically saying "people are not allowed to monopolize your time just because they have access to your calendar". If you don't like that your job profile involves going to meetings, then that's on you to work with your manager and find a job that you do enjoy, probably with fewer responsibilities. Failing that, if you decide to become a recluse and not even bother to remote in to important meetings, it'll show up in your performance and impact your career, and conceivably you could be fired over it.

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

Again, I've seen multiple other big companies wholly support moves between teams without making up stories about themselves being sole beacons of reason in a sea of inanity. I assure you it's entirely possible to do this.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

My fingers are set to vibrate


JawnV6 posted:

making up stories about themselves being sole beacons of reason in a sea of inanity

I defy you to point to where anyone besides you said anything like that.

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

I defy you to point to where anyone besides you said anything like that.
its u

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

But again, the underlying principle behind all this is that you can't force people to work on your team. If they don't like the environment, they'll walk away and find a job somewhere else. If you don't give people the freedom to say no to meetings that they don't think are useful, then they'll look for another team; if you deny them the option to move to a different team within the company, then they'll go to a different team in a different company. They might do that anyway!
"Freedom to say no to meetings" as if most software devs are shackled together and hoisted between conference rooms screaming against the imposition?

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

More generally, it's a recognition that you cannot force highly skilled/paid professionals to work on projects or in environments that they do not enjoy. If "keep them on the team" is not an option, then "keep them in the company" is vastly preferable to "have them leave to go work at $competitor". Naturally you'd rather they wouldn't find themselves wanting to leave, but that's not always realistic; Google has its fair share of bad managers and unpopular projects.
Does any software company anywhere "force" folks? Is that a reasonable word to describe "sit in front of a box and make 6 figures"? This entire schtick is ridiculous and the imagined alternatives in your head are hosed up and not representative of my time in the industry. You keep describing basic aspects of big company work and acting like it's goog's secret internal tricks to keeping devs. Intel explicitly encouraged folks to hop teams all the time. They made a big friggin deal about Paul Otellini stepping down from a cushy marketing job to an IC finance position, because it burnished his credentials on the way back up to CEO. A skiplevel manager of mine had a very clear picture of the hops he'd have to do to keep growing. A short-term hop to another team is formalized as a "tour of duty" and I've heard the term "cross-pollinating" enough to make me sick. Who knows, maybe back when they were colliding to depress our salaries they shared this tidbit.

That's actually one big difference at my current place. At Intel, getting "IR" on a perf review meant "go find some other team that wants you," here it's "shape up to your current assignment's standards or you're out." I knew one guy (who also had an interesting visa strategy) that washed out of a team I was on and did fantastic with the next group of folks.

Rest assured, I, too, wish I'd stopped after mocking your initial statement of the cultural "value" inherent to starving a bad team of talent and not had condescending corporate propaganda regurgitated back in my face, but here we are.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

My fingers are set to vibrate



Yeah, you're reading things into my posts that I certainly wasn't intending to convey. Language being the lovely means of transmitting information that it is, I will accept some responsibility for not being sufficiently clear that I didn't think this was somehow unique to Google. But that said,

quote:

Rest assured, I, too, wish I'd stopped after mocking your initial statement of the cultural "value" inherent to starving a bad team of talent and not had condescending corporate propaganda regurgitated back in my face, but here we are.

Maybe next time...don't mock to begin with unless you're rock-solid that someone said something mockable? I mean, I don't see anyone laughing. When you're the only one pointing and laughing, maybe just a little bit it's on you.

And that's the last I'll say on this topic, 'cause it's gotten dumb and derailed.

Rocko Bonaparte
Mar 12, 2002

Every day is Friday!


JawnV6 posted:

Intel explicitly encouraged folks to hop teams all the time.

I wish they'd stay a little bit longer. They learn how to push a review to gerrit and not to use arbitrary string literals as comments but leave before they can learn how to resolve merge conflicts and write their own objects.

Kyth
Jun 7, 2011

Professional windmill tilter

JawnV6 posted:

Does any software company anywhere "force" folks? Is that a reasonable word to describe "sit in front of a box and make 6 figures"? This entire schtick is ridiculous and the imagined alternatives in your head are hosed up and not representative of my time in the industry. You keep describing basic aspects of big company work and acting like it's goog's secret internal tricks to keeping devs. Intel explicitly encouraged folks to hop teams all the time.

This is correct. However:

Having managed many different places across a wide spectrum of companies, Google is the first where if I tried to block someone's transfer because the team was in trouble, or it was a really critical area, or everyone else had quit and if this person quit we'd be truly hosed, I'd be told to take a hike and it sucks to be me but the person is transferring -- and I work in one of the areas of Google that is receiving the most headcount, press, and attention.

The handful of times when transfers have been actually been blocked lit's been a Really Big Deal and the engineers have pushed back hard.

It's definitely a different culture than what I've experienced at some of the other big tech firms. (Been a manager at multiple.)

Google is not unique in encouraging engineers to move, they are however unique in MY experience in their insistence on allowing it even when the senior leadership believes the business will be harmed by the transfer.

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

Maybe next time...don't mock to begin with unless you're rock-solid that someone said something mockable? I mean, I don't see anyone laughing. When you're the only one pointing and laughing, maybe just a little bit it's on you.
This is absolutely a failure of management and mockable:

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

actively encouraged as a way to starve bad teams/projects of resources
I keep trying to read this as anything other than a lack of direction from senior management, a brazen abdication of their duty, and I just can't get there. It's on par with Larry Page bragging about still reading resumes after it's a $100B company.

Rocko Bonaparte posted:

I wish they'd stay a little bit longer. They learn how to push a review to gerrit and not to use arbitrary string literals as comments but leave before they can learn how to resolve merge conflicts and write their own objects.
My first team used to claim a 4 month ramp before a new hire broke even and they had stopped taking "rotation" interns. But we also used rcs.

Kyth posted:

The handful of times when transfers have been actually been blocked lit's been a Really Big Deal and the engineers have pushed back hard.
Ohhhh yeah, I'm remembering about That Manager Who Got Fired after botching poaching me. I'm sure there were other reasons, but gosh that was a lot of acrimonious discussions.

Kyth posted:

It's definitely a different culture than what I've experienced at some of the other big tech firms. (Been a manager at multiple.)

Google is not unique in encouraging engineers to move, they are however unique in MY experience in their insistence on allowing it even when the senior leadership believes the business will be harmed by the transfer.
That would be a point of distinction. The trump card at a couple places was the "disagree and commit" approach, calling the walk-out-the-door bluff. Still think it's laughable as a replacement for cancellation process.

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



Pillbug


Mmmkay https://discord.gg/dadJYC

That expires in 24 hours since this is technically public, albeit buried pretty deep.

Keetron
Sep 26, 2008

Check out my enormous testicles in my TFLC log!

About white male privilege in IT: it means that the reason for my succes is not that I am perceived as a decent developer but that my skills are overvalued thanks to outside values. And that sucks because now I can never be sure why things are working out for me. Skill or skin / gender?

uncurable mlady
Jan 13, 2008

get meow dis wack-ass
crystal prison









Pillbug

Keetron posted:

About white male privilege in IT: it means that the reason for my succes is not that I am perceived as a decent developer but that my skills are overvalued thanks to outside values. And that sucks because now I can never be sure why things are working out for me. Skill or skin / gender?

it's not that your abilities are overvalued, it's that others abilities are undervalued. macro != micro. it doesn't help that there's a dedicated vocal minority of people on the internet that deliberately confuse the issue.

uncurable mlady
Jan 13, 2008

get meow dis wack-ass
crystal prison









Pillbug

the issues women face in the workplace have a lot more to do with systemic failings of capitalism and how companies value labor than they do with shitheads like damore writing screeds about how womens soft minds and feefees cant handle the hard rugged world of increasing ad conversion by 0.02% this quarter

imo

Shirec
Jul 29, 2009

How to cock it up, Fig. I



Fallen Rib

Keetron posted:

About white male privilege in IT: it means that the reason for my succes is not that I am perceived as a decent developer but that my skills are overvalued thanks to outside values. And that sucks because now I can never be sure why things are working out for me. Skill or skin / gender?

I can speak to that a bit, although I am still learning myself about that, as I straddle both of privilege and non-privilege (white woman) (queer but can pass). Others here can feel free to correct or add anything

It's not so much that your skills and abilities are less than you think they are. It's more that the road you've taken has been smoother than it has for others. When an interviewer, who in most cases will be a white man, speaks with you, he recognizes himself in you. Instinctively, a lot of people (we all do this) want to help people "like us". Traits that in POC or women may have looked down on were instead brought forward as positive attributes. You "take charge" instead of being "bossy or demanding". You are "charismatic" not "chatty or overly social", so forth and so on. In general programming/development/engineering, so-called "masculine" traits were prized over "feminine" ones.

You may have a lot of socialized behavior that primes you for success, unlike the aforementioned POC or women. You are told to ask for raises, because you're worth it. You are told to take charge and lead, because it's your place. That is not true of others. In my personal experience, I've been punished for asking for promotions that were naturally given to my male co-workers as their due.

Also! You are able to use your discomfort with these things to stop conversations and pushes for this. I spoke about this in the newbie thread, but a lot of white folks will use their discomfort with ever thinking their behavior is racist to stop/delay diversity training/initiatives.

Rocko Bonaparte
Mar 12, 2002

Every day is Friday!


If we are getting into feminism here for all the duders, then I call upon all those times you stuck to doing something stupid in school or your job out of "toughness" as a case of toxic masculinity. I stuck with computer engineering due to it being the elite, tough major at my school; computer science or software engineering were for when you weren't tough enough. The measure of toughness was how well you put up with doing work that was not covered in class, notes, or literally any books in the syllabus.

If you got roped into an all-nighter due to virtues such as toughness then it is the same. Now, if you did any of this for other reasons then sure, maybe it wasn't a toxic masculinity thing--for you that one time. It's just that it isn't as simple as a slider to value one type of person or another.

Kyth
Jun 7, 2011

Professional windmill tilter

quote:

That would be a point of distinction. The trump card at a couple places was the "disagree and commit" approach, calling the walk-out-the-door bluff. Still think it's laughable as a replacement for cancellation process.

I'm not sure why you are insisting it's a replacement for the cancellation process. Just like changing teams to get away from a lovely boss isn't a replacement for systems to catch lovely bosses and try to fire them.

Google is often deeply pragmatic about human behavior. So yes, ideally you say "this is a lovely meeting!" And everyone agrees and it's fixed or cancelled.

...but maybe it isn't. Okay, you go to someone higher up and say "this is a lovely meeting!" And they agree and it's fixed or cancelled.

...but maybe it isn't. And maybe you've gone through everything you can think of and it's still lovely.

The point of what TMA is saying is that there's a written down doc from leadership that applies to all of engineering and says if you don't have an agenda, if it can be better handled by email, if it's not well-run, if it's not a good use of your time, if you can't get things fixed.... You have air cover. You are allowed to vote with your feet. If someone tries to force you to stay, you have a document supporting your choice to not be there. Because sometimes that's the only message people hear.

And we'd rather make some dense meeting-runners uncomfortable and sad than to have a culture where engineers are miserable, stuck in pointless meetings with no recourse.

And then maybe, when people stop coming, the dense meeting-runners will finally pay attention to the feedback they've been getting.

baquerd
Jul 2, 2007
I'M A FUCKING IDIOT



Rocko Bonaparte posted:

If you got roped into an all-nighter due to virtues such as toughness then it is the same. Now, if you did any of this for other reasons then sure, maybe it wasn't a toxic masculinity thing--for you that one time. It's just that it isn't as simple as a slider to value one type of person or another.

In the old days, we simply called that building character.

CPColin
Sep 9, 2003

Big ol' smile.

Grimey Drawer

Kyth posted:

…if you don't have an agenda, if it can be better handled by email, if it's not well-run, if it's not a good use of your time, if you can't get things fixed.... You have air cover.

At some point, when I have more clout at this new job, I want to stress all of these points. I've had so many meetings where nobody stated what the desired takeaways were. Or only two people talked to each other while the other three held their eyelids open. Or it was a training session for the UI of an application where I only ever touch one table in its database. Or we discussed how to smooth the flow and automate a process that only a dozen people had used all year.

The last one was especially bad, because after somebody revealed that only a dozen people used it, I suggested ending the meeting and reconvening if/when the adoption rate picked up. Everybody laughed and continued the meeting.

Keetron
Sep 26, 2008

Check out my enormous testicles in my TFLC log!

After refusing meetings for a while I got much fewer invites allowing me to code more. Other devs followed, about half or two third of the recurring meetings were cancelled. We got so much more done.

redleader
Aug 18, 2005
Engage according to operational parameters

I'm reasonably sure that I wouldn't have gotten my current job if I weren't a middle class white male. Since I applied straight out of uni, with an unrelated degree and very limited programming experience, the fact that I looked and talked like the two interviewers probably won me some points - although I still have no idea why they picked me in the end.

Nowadays the hiring process has changed, and we've hired a far more diverse group of developers. Senior management are actually quite proud of that. It's a pity they can't run a business and we've been laying off a bunch of people to try to control costs lmbo

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



Pillbug

Going by how many people showed up in Discord this morning, a lot fewer of you have me on ignore than I probably deserve!

Doh004
Apr 22, 2007

Mmmmm Donuts...

I joined, I am now in.

Phobeste
Apr 9, 2006

never, like, count out Touchdown Tom, man

Grimey Drawer

I didn't join but only because the invite expired I'll PM someone

Paolomania
Apr 26, 2006



Shirec posted:

Perhaps I may have been talking out of my rear end then! I would swear I saw something recently that said Google's diversity numbers showed they were having trouble with retention, but I can't seem to find it. I'll defer to your expertise. It's good to know that, even though it could be better, it's still good at one of the dream companies. Apologies for my misrepresentation

It says something that Google publishes diversity numbers and that internal mailing lists like yes@ exist. The first step to solving a problem is admitting that it exists via first hand accounts and other measurements. The second step is to make yourself accountable. By both gathering metrics and publishing some part of the demographics publicly, Google is saying "yes there is a problem and we want to be accountable". Measuring and publicizing the truth - even if it is disappointing - goes vastly further on the road to progress than any amount of corporate sloganeering and feel-good messaging.

The Leck
Feb 27, 2001



Phobeste posted:

I didn't join but only because the invite expired I'll PM someone
Same, I guess I don't check this thread as religiously as I should .

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



Pillbug

I got a couple of PMs so I'll post another one https://discord.gg/9Q4QHY

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apseudonym
Feb 25, 2011



Munkeymon posted:

I got a couple of PMs so I'll post another one https://discord.gg/9Q4QHY

I'm there and am happy to do algorithms-y mock interviews for folks because I'm a huge algorithms and teaching nerd and have done far too many interviews here at the goog

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