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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Staying late for no overtime is a hard pass. Expectations of a >40 hour work week is, too.

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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Why wouldn’t they? It’s in their best interest that you work as much as possible for them.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


asur posted:

Yes, the company paid you $X so you owe that to them. I would assume it is deducted from your income, either directly on your W-2 or as a deduction, so it should be about the same after you pay taxes but I haven't actually had it happen.

Signing bonuses sound kinda :chloe: when you put ‘em this way.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


asur posted:

At six year experience you should be targeting senior positions and 90k seems on the low end for any senior role.

Six years, though? Really? My workplace is moving towards a new review/ladder system for engineers and the rubric says to expect to be in Engineer II for "multiple years", which on further digging seems to be 5~8. Though maybe that's impossible to compare...

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


asur posted:

Five to eight years for the first step up the later is ridiculously long. I've never been at or heard of a company that would wait that long to promote and I'd expect pretty much everyone to leave unless the allowed band for Eng I is ridiculously wide. I'd highly suggest looking around at year two or three.

I’d like to hear more about the typical progression for companies. I’d put myself around “sloppy and excitable Engineer II” and I wanna hit Senior, but I have a really hard time telling how “useful” I am. It feels like I should have gotten there already, so I wonder if I’m just delayed or something.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Headhunters can have awful hiring practices and you can put things in a weird manner. It’s not mutually exclusive.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I have somehow managed to hit “Engineer II” at my company, which apparently follows the Rent the Runway model. I’m not going to be satisfied until I hit at least Senior Engineer I, so now that’s my new goal.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Careful Drums posted:

I say "dream job" because it's a company in the education space and I am very about teaching others. I'd have been a teacher instead of a programmer if I didn't also want to get paid.

I’ve not heard good things about the education sector. What is it about the job specifically that is interesting or exciting, besides it being related to education?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Oh my god, what the gently caress is regd05?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I am explained :negative:

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Jesus this place is like 20 years old and next year I will have been registered on these dead gay forums for half of my entire life.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Cuntpunch posted:

Then clarify, because as it stands all you've done is laugh at the idea that individual performance matters, which leaves the door open only to the feeling that group performance or project success is the metric you'd use. Which feels like practicality from a parallel universe operating under completely different rules of human nature.

Whether it was schoolwork across all ages, or work across several professions - every time that the measurement was set on 'the team as a whole' things inevitably splintered into 'those that care' and 'those who appreciate the free ride'.

Like I'd really, really love to understand what you're getting at - am I missing something here?

That is not what he said and you know it. Don’t be willfully dense.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Being on the other side of the interview has me convinced that no one knows what the gently caress they’re doing on either side.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


runupon cracker posted:

"<very large company> gets away with it"

Literally killed the startup I was working at for 6 years.

Oh man, dish.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


The US has hilariously inflated tech salaries due to our VC and unicorn fetish (and yet none of the workers benefit), so don’t take it as a baseline.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I guess I just don’t believe the dotcom crash won’t happen again. I need to be prepared to lose all of my job opportunities at any time, because there’s no such thing as job security these days.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Careful Drums posted:

I've gotten the same impression. At my last interview one of the higher-ups seemed to fall over themselves when I said I was interested in going into management after a few years.

Why? What do they want to even see from managers? All the managers I know and have seen, higher-ups don't have a loving clue what a good manager is.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Doh004 posted:

Any reason in particular for waiting until the late 30's to get into a leadership role?

I can speak for myself here: in no way should anyone ever consider me a leader cause I will 100% gently caress it up. Why go for that position and responsibilities if it will just crash and burn, like it always does?

I used to want to make team lead. After seeing the poo poo my team lead goes through and all the poo poo he gets for stuff out of his control...never.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


If I ever become team lead it will be a few months of screaming match meetings followed by me washing my hands of the affair because people are the worst part of anything. I swear, if I’m ever in a management-y role - and I never want to be and actively resent the idea - my priority will be day to day sanity and tempered expectations, no bullshit. Eugh.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


ultrafilter posted:

It's also worth keeping in mind that, while being an IC is largely the same pretty much everywhere, the management experience is going to be a lot more sensitive to the company culture. It might be that you'd be a good manager in a different organization even if not in your current one.

Yeah. It takes a lot of trust in an organization to be cool with managing under it. Unfortunately, trustworthiness is hard to come by these days.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I’m also very bearish on the market - I’m still not convinced that this is an engineer’s market, or will stay/become one. I have no hard proof, but neither do the bullish ones.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Ralith posted:

marks "No Hire" on the form

Dealing with incomplete, vague, and buggy specifications is part of the job, especially as you become senior. Which is beside the point because having good basic hygiene does not need to be part of any spec.

Yeah, one of the things I’ve learned to do is not to follow specs blindly. I’m not building anything that’s poorly specced out - I’m going to ask lots of questions and make sure I’m convinced that everyone knows what the gently caress we’re doing before we invest engineering time and effort into something.

Incomplete, vague, and buggy specifications are part of the job. Our job is therefore to make sure they don’t suck rear end before we execute on them instead of blindly following crap.

Note: more than five years in, and I still don’t consider myself senior. Seniority is a function of how familiar you are with a given domain, e.g. being the go-to for a particularly heinous codebase or service.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Also, I’m willing to believe that the number of jobs is going up. I am still not yet convinced that the percentage of good jobs is going up or staying stable.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Oh cool he said the right-winger word.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I am 100% ready to believe that 99.9% of all developers are incompetent and the remaining 0.1% are incel weirdos.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Keetron posted:

I do only java development and can set up a runnable Spring Boot micro service that responds to an http get request in 10 minutes.

I can probably do the same for rails, but...really, who the hell spins up new projects that often that they can get something new spun up immediately?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Like, you are what you eat. If your day to day job involves feature development on an existing codebase, it’s not so strange that you’d have to stop and think a bit when starting something greenfield.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.



What is this and why do I see it a lot now?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


School of How posted:

Most industries operate under a seniority system. In my opinion, it's a far superior system than any other and here is why: Amongst competent people, it's very hard to "rank" each person. For instance, it's very hard to say whether LeBron James or Michael Jordan is a better basketball player. They both play pretty drat well, and can do everything a basketball player needs to be able to do. On the other hand, if you go to an elementary school basketball game, it's much easier to tell who the best players are, who the worst are, and the ones in the middle.

I can't speak for other industries, but within the aviation industry, there is no logical way to say pilot A is "better" than pilot B. If they both are able to get the job done and not crash, then they both are equal, therefore the only way to fairly give out promotions is to give it to the one with most seniority. If they were to come up with some metric to differentiate between "good" and "great" pilots, then pilots would try to maximize that metric to further their career, and that would jeopardize safety.

If the programming industry embraced seniority, then you'd see far fewer programmers trying to "out-program" their co-workers in an attempt to make themselves seem better that everyone else, to get a promotion. It would result in better software quality and better working conditions.

You’re just pissed you’re no longer a pilot.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


How about we just institute fully automated luxury gay space communism so we don’t have to write software at all?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


How has made the fatal mistake of thinking that whoever writes code will be the only person who ever maintains it.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


School of How posted:

Code is not something that inherently has to be "maintained". It's not like a sports car that will have parts wear out and need to be replaced.

My favorite example is Super Mario Bros. for the NES. That game was first released in 1985, and the code hasn't changed one bit since then. And yet the game still works perfectly fine today as it did 50 years ago. It doesn't really matter if the code for SMB is "maintainable" or not because it doesn't need maintenance.

Am I losing my poo poo or was this actually for real just posted in 2019 CE?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Remote is hard to pull off on both sides, IME. It’s also still relatively rare and I can just see a company deciding to unremote and loving over a bunch of people.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I think I stopped taking it seriously after claiming super mario bros is 50 years old

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


It’s really not that weird that doing the same thing for 8 hours straight would tire you out and make you sick of it. I don’t understand how this is strange or a problem.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


What exactly is “one year five times”, or “one year fifteen times”, or whatever? How do you know you’re in that state? How do you get out of it and prevent it? How much do the opportunities you get affect it?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


prisoner of waffles posted:

Are you solving the same problem with small variations, again and again?

I mean, not really. Same lovely codebase, same ill-defined product, same language and framework, same kind if technology. But it’s not like it’s the same problem over and over, if it was I would have automated it away long ago (and I have, for the ones that were). That said, it does feel stale and pointless, mostly because of poor planning and bad product ideas.

quote:

Are you learning things that only pertain to the innards of the system you work with?

Well yeah, that’s called a job. A company pays you to maintain an existing product and implement/fix stuff as needed. The hard part is never generic, it’s always about archaeology and investigation into the stupidity in front of you. That’s the grand majority of our problems as developers, wrapping our brains around things we don’t know and learning how to make that faster and easier. Oftentimes that involves (EDIT: for example) cornering Engineer X and getting them to tell you what database backs the reporting service and what stored procedures and tables are involved.

quote:

Are you not improving with any of the skills that you use professionally?

In some ways yes, others no. Ruby/Rails stuff is the same as ever, but I’ve been doing AWS stuff recently too. That said, there is nothing new under the sun for the core product, because it’s mostly a configuration store. Also, I now know loving loathe reporting and anything involving data warehouses and poo poo, because poor implementation is directly contributing to my recent daily pain.

Really, I haven’t grown much as a programmer in the past couple years, but I’ve grown a lot as a developer. I’ve learned how to:

- take lead on a project/epic and see it to completion
- coordinate with other teams and engineers to unblock myself and get poo poo done
- prevent stupid misunderstandings and misconceptions between technical and nontechnical individuals and temper expectations
- drag arcane knowledge with a bus factor of 1 into the light so we don’t work with useless poo poo
- jump into new and unfamiliar codebases when no one else can or wants to do the work
- make up for holes in a team’s organizational capabilities by being involved in things that other teams and organizations need from us (i.e. de facto team representative)
- advocate for not doing stupid poo poo wherever possible

and that has made a hell of a difference. I’m less impressed by someone who can write a graph traversal algorithm than by someone who can integrate two lovely monoliths maintained by 2.5 engineers total without losing their mind and making it impossible to understand for future generations.

Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Aug 16, 2019

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


are you sure though

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


kitten smoothie posted:

It's an assumption of mine that any new hire will not be running on all cylinders until 4-6 months into their tenure anyway, since you have to learn a new codebase, new processes, and gel up with a whole new team.

So in other words this doesn't pass the smell test to me at all.

This sounds like people who don’t know how to hire or manage and have no experience in such.

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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


kayakyakr posted:

For those sitting, a good chair is worth the $300-$500 you'd spend on one. Bought a 2nd-hand steelcase and it's been fantastic to support my posture.

Can I ask where you got it? I need one for my desk at home.

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