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fknlo
Jul 6, 2009




Fun Shoe

MrYenko posted:

I mean worst case scenario, there’s not an FAA TRB in the galaxy that wouldn’t reset training hours because of all this.

They aren't just resetting hours out of the gate?

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MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


fknlo posted:

They aren't just resetting hours out of the gate?

I don't think there's a blanket policy. I'd expect generous additions of hours to anyone who seems to need it.

The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

cluck cluck

They are, essentially. And then some. You get your spool-up time, then you get your hours back that you previously used before training stopped. THEN you get your fully target hours back.

Or so I've heard.

TangoFox
Jan 28, 2016


They are resetting them, just in a weird way.... but beneficial way.


If you had 100 hours (out of 180 hours) before the training shutdown, you now have 100 hours, but it's out of 280 instead of 180. (Take the hours you had, and add it to the hours required.)

That means that you're already 35% complete if you can get to minimums (40% for most facilities) and certify. If you're poo poo, you can go for the full length

If they had reset everyone to 0 hours, you would have needed 72 hours of training, regardless of where you were in the process.



The one thing I told all my trainees is that you must become familiar with the contract. The contract says after a suspension of training that you must be allowed to train until you were back to the level you were at before you stopped training. *THIS IS PER THE -25's*. So if you aren't comfortable and need more time, tell your instructors to write up a ton of poo poo, because all that time is "free" spool up time. If they just clean sheet you, they'll say you were at your same level you were at before, and then the time counts again.

TangoFox fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Oct 25, 2020

fknlo
Jul 6, 2009




Fun Shoe

The Ferret King posted:

They are, essentially. And then some. You get your spool-up time, then you get your hours back that you previously used before training stopped. THEN you get your fully target hours back.

Or so I've heard.

I think that's pretty much what they did when you lost your medical for a while as a trainee and I figured it's what they'd run with now. They're just asking for trouble if they don't go that route.

TangoFox
Jan 28, 2016


fknlo posted:

I think that's pretty much what they did when you lost your medical for a while as a trainee and I figured it's what they'd run with now. They're just asking for trouble if they don't go that route.

The contract speaks to it

Tommy 2.0
Apr 26, 2008

My fabulous CoX shall live forever!

I can not imagine how soul crushing it would be to be a trainee in the north area at ZJX and have your hours reset. The minimums were about 100% to high as it is. It was 4-6 months just to get your D-Sides in one sector, let alone all nine.

MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


Tommy 2.0 posted:

I can not imagine how soul crushing it would be to be a trainee in the north area at ZJX and have your hours reset. The minimums were about 100% to high as it is. It was 4-6 months just to get your D-Sides in one sector, let alone all nine.

When I was area rep, I successfully got the target hours for our highs (three sectors, but practically two with an almost irrelevant ultra-high) reduced. They were 360hrs all-in. Got em down to 280, which is still nearly double what they should be.

TangoFox
Jan 28, 2016


Meanwhile in the east area my friend went from AG to CPC in like 8 months.

MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


TangoFox posted:

Meanwhile in the east area my friend went from AG to CPC in like 8 months.

You mean the east area with <1/10th the traffic and 7/8ths the staffing?

Where we at on that, FACREP?

fknlo
Jul 6, 2009




Fun Shoe

MrYenko posted:

You mean the east area with <1/10th the traffic and 7/8ths the staffing?

Where we at on that, FACREP?

My soon to be old area is going to be boned next year. A couple of us leaving on supervisor bids, like 8 high risk people out, etc... gently caress them, I'm glad I'm getting out. I won't go back if the supervisor thing doesn't work out either. I'll either get another area or quit to live in a trailer and smoke meth.

TangoFox
Jan 28, 2016


There you go, that's the supervisor mentality.

fknlo
Jul 6, 2009




Fun Shoe

TangoFox posted:

There you go, that's the supervisor mentality.

The thing where most of the people I work with are huge pieces of poo poo may have jaded me a little bit. I really regret not transferring to a different area when I had the opportunity because my stupid rear end thought I'd be able to get back to KC and I didn't want to waste anyones time training again and then leaving. I don't know if it would have actually done anything since a lot of the issues I have here are definitely building wide, but it would have been something.

e: someone in my area tested positive for covid today!

fknlo
Jul 6, 2009




Fun Shoe

They've shut down my area for the day. The clinic the guy got tested at apparently closed right after they told him he was positive and didn't provide him with any paperwork. The region decided this meant he was lying about it and they didn't do the required deep cleaning of the area. He was apparently able to get the paperwork late last night so they're just sterilizing our airspace until they can do it. The fact that he was definitely in other places in the building and almost definitely not wearing a mask doesn't matter! I'm also very doubtful this person was wearing a mask while he would have been in the area. Good thing this stuff doesn't mainly spread through the air and the deep cleaning of the work area is all that's needed!

MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


fknlo posted:

They've shut down my area for the day. The clinic the guy got tested at apparently closed right after they told him he was positive and didn't provide him with any paperwork. The region decided this meant he was lying about it and they didn't do the required deep cleaning of the area. He was apparently able to get the paperwork late last night so they're just sterilizing our airspace until they can do it. The fact that he was definitely in other places in the building and almost definitely not wearing a mask doesn't matter! I'm also very doubtful this person was wearing a mask while he would have been in the area. Good thing this stuff doesn't mainly spread through the air and the deep cleaning of the work area is all that's needed!

Dont worry. The pandemic is over.

fknlo
Jul 6, 2009




Fun Shoe


On the plus side, this has the unintended effect of keeping the people he works with the most out of the building for the day. I know they're doing "close contact" contact tracing but that's only going to work so well in our work environment. Getting people on/off position doesn't count in their criteria and that's almost definitely a really good vector for spreading it depending on mask usage which isn't super high in my area.

e:

fknlo fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Oct 28, 2020

Blackchamber
Jan 25, 2005



Agreed very dumb. When they finally decided to do something about it though it was already very early/late and by the time the cleaning crew came it would have been hugely disruptive to have to clear everyone out of the building for a couple hours.

That means if they do a facility wide clean tonight I'm going to be hanging out in my car again (this is the second incident in about a week that needs a clean) for a couple hours because theres no designated place for me to be. Nice and cold.

Tommy 2.0
Apr 26, 2008

My fabulous CoX shall live forever!

MrYenko posted:

You mean the east area with <1/10th the traffic and 7/8ths the staffing?

Where we at on that, FACREP?

They designed the airspace the way it is at ZJX on purpose. The overwhelming majority of the traffic is handled by one area. Areas like the east are just overstaffed by glorified phraseology specialist. So, it's working as intended. It ain't changing.

TangoFox posted:

Meanwhile in the east area my friend went from AG to CPC in like 8 months.

Thank gently caress someone else knows that Isn't hyperbole what I wrote.

fknlo
Jul 6, 2009




Fun Shoe

We have one person that's absolutely scamming the contact tracing from our latest positive to get the 14 days off while other people that probably should be off are coming to work. Pretty good system.

Sagebrush
Feb 26, 2012


"Why does that Subaru break down every time you look at it, Travis", Punchy said. I nearly fell out of the jump seat in my Brat, aghast. "That thing a princess?" I coughed and gulped. "Hahahaha, nice one, Punchy", I said

SFO's tower (and I guess every other class B tower) is continuously staffed 24 hours a day, but there's basically no flights between 1am and 6am other than a couple of FedEx planes. How many people are gonna be up there during those hours? What do they do to pass the time?

JohnClark
Mar 24, 2005

Well that's less than ideal


Sagebrush posted:

SFO's tower (and I guess every other class B tower) is continuously staffed 24 hours a day, but there's basically no flights between 1am and 6am other than a couple of FedEx planes. How many people are gonna be up there during those hours? What do they do to pass the time?
I worked radar for Dulles for years, so not in the tower itself but in the radar room, and Dulles is much the same in terms of overnight traffic (there basically is none). Prior to the famous incident where the guy fell asleep in the DCA tower, we weren''t allowed to have anything but the 7110.65 (or other ATC manuals) with us at the position, so it was a lot of redbull and getting up to walk around to keep from being lulled to sleep by the whir of the fans in the darkened radar room. After that, they started to relax things, and we could bring books and even iPads (I'm not sure this was technically allowed, but the overnight supes always allowed it). That made it easier to stay up, but it was still lovely to sit there from 12-2:30 or 2:30-5 and talk to maybe half a dozen airplanes the entire time.

Sagebrush
Feb 26, 2012


"Why does that Subaru break down every time you look at it, Travis", Punchy said. I nearly fell out of the jump seat in my Brat, aghast. "That thing a princess?" I coughed and gulped. "Hahahaha, nice one, Punchy", I said

so what you're saying is if i wait until 2:30AM, i might have a chance of doing a few laps in the pattern on 28R?

Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Nov 8, 2020

JohnClark
Mar 24, 2005

Well that's less than ideal


Sagebrush posted:

so what you're saying is if i wait until 2:30AM, i might have a chance of doing a few laps in the pattern on 28R?
Class B towers don't allow pattern work, come on man

TheHouseofM
Feb 13, 2012


Sagebrush posted:

so what you're saying is if i wait until 2:30AM, i might have a chance of doing a few laps in the pattern on 28R?

Actually you might be able to do an IFR practice approach to SFO at that time. Really up to the controller in Area B, they work the finals to SFO at NCT.

its all nice on rice
Nov 12, 2006

Sweet, Salty Goodness.



Buglord

Not sure what the logic is, but they're still calling back trainees while our county is orange on the global health institute chart the FAA is, theoretically, using.

MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


its all nice on rice posted:

Not sure what the logic is, but they're still calling back trainees while our county is orange on the global health institute chart the FAA is, theoretically, using.

Have your rep jump all in their poo poo. If they’re unresponsive, reach out to your RVP. The National agreement absolutely does not allow that.

fknlo
Jul 6, 2009




Fun Shoe

its all nice on rice posted:

Not sure what the logic is, but they're still calling back trainees while our county is orange on the global health institute chart the FAA is, theoretically, using.

We've "stopped bringing additional new trainees into the building". If they'd already brought you back you can stay though. Because having a bunch of sectors unnecessarily split as well as 3 people at one sector to train a fresh D side jamming as many people into the area as possible is definitely fine.

MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


fknlo posted:

We've "stopped bringing additional new trainees into the building". If they'd already brought you back you can stay though. Because having a bunch of sectors unnecessarily split as well as 3 people at one sector to train a fresh D side jamming as many people into the area as possible is definitely fine.

its all nice on rice
Nov 12, 2006

Sweet, Salty Goodness.



Buglord

fknlo posted:

We've "stopped bringing additional new trainees into the building". If they'd already brought you back you can stay though. Because having a bunch of sectors unnecessarily split as well as 3 people at one sector to train a fresh D side jamming as many people into the area as possible is definitely fine.

That's what we've been told previously. "If you're already back, you stay. Even if we stop bringing people back." I haven't been called back, and just have daily zoom conferences going over recurrent safety training.
We've been orange since late last week, and today another trainee said "This is my last Zoom, I'm going back Thursday."
Seems they're going on the (flawed) logic of "well, we've already told them to come back, so they're technically already back!"

fknlo
Jul 6, 2009




Fun Shoe

There were apparently 8 centers that went ATC zero last night so things are definitely going smoothly.

MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


fknlo posted:

There were apparently 8 centers that went ATC zero last night so things are definitely going smoothly.

We’re still 5/10 because TangoFox is a loving stud, but we apparently had a confirmed case on the recent (36hr) hurricane response, sooooooooooo.

fknlo
Jul 6, 2009




Fun Shoe

Another area had a positive last night. There were no cleaning crews available because things are definitely going fine. They're just going to run that area from a rarely used scope in my area and another in TMU and "limit overflights". That's definitely not a really good way to spread it between areas that they do their best to segregate with different break areas.

I wonder if we hit a point where they loosen the contact tracing guidelines to where you're coming in if you aren't showing symptoms? People have already gamed it to get 2 weeks off work free and we're pretty sure they can't really do much if you tell them you had a close contact outside of work and it's only a matter of time before people start loving with it on that end too.

Pekinduck
May 10, 2008


I know nothing about this stuff so forgive my ignorance. The centers aren't looking out of towers right? Couldn't they set up a bunch of small rooms, put a radar setup in each one and have it be one individual's personal room?

MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


Pekinduck posted:

I know nothing about this stuff so forgive my ignorance. The centers aren't looking out of towers right? Couldn't they set up a bunch of small rooms, put a radar setup in each one and have it be one individual's personal room?

Every controller locked in a dark room by themselves is basically management's wet dream.

fknlo
Jul 6, 2009




Fun Shoe

With the way our sectors are set up you can have 4 open with everyone like 10 or so feet apart. If you have to open more than that is when people start to get close.

Or you can do like yesterday where we had 10 people in the area with 4 sectors open because we were training 2 d sides at the same time.

The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

cluck cluck

Radar rooms have some flexibility to provide lots of space, separation, and ventilation to increase safety.

Which is why the FAA won't do it.

vessbot
Jun 17, 2005
I don't like you because you're dangerous

It you say "noseparationservicesprovided" with each transmission then it's OK

its all nice on rice
Nov 12, 2006

Sweet, Salty Goodness.



Buglord

From what I understand, the agency spent a long time (weeks? months?) negotiating with the union on how to bring trainees back in a safe, efficient manner. I'm not sure about other facilities, but mine was bringing devs back two at a time. They'd have unlimited sim and classroom time to spool up for the floor (this was all contingent on our county being below a certain COVID infection rate).
Everything seemed to be going fine, but they had to shut off the plan due to the current outbreak.
Either out of desperation, or stupidity, they've now decided "gently caress IT!" and are bringing back all devs who have any cert and can work on their own. We have to come in (with no spool up time) to get recertified and assigned a 5/5 shift. I have to report by Monday morning.
The person in the training department in charge of calling us back tacitly agreed when I said "It's stupid to have trainees come back after seven months to get recertified when we have no time to prepare for the floor. Not to mention that there is a massive outbreak right now."
It looks like I'll be on a shift with some of The Cool Controllers, and I'm glad that I'll be able to actually work on my skills. The circumstances of going back are just ridiculous.
Every holiday in the US has been followed by a massive spike in COVID cases, and we're already at the highest infection rate so far.
Thank you for reading my Xanga.

TangoFox
Jan 28, 2016


The agency as a whole has forgot there's a pandemic. Luckily we've been pretty successful here in fighting them.

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fknlo
Jul 6, 2009




Fun Shoe

TangoFox posted:

The agency as a whole has forgot there's a pandemic. Luckily we've been pretty successful here in fighting them.

I wonder if they're doing anything to secure vaccine doses right off the bat for controllers? That's probably way cheaper than spending almost $100k every week to clean every facility and/or shut them down. I kind of wonder how they'll handle people that refuse to get it in that kind of situation.

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