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Lmao I have a 10 hour OT in two weeks because "we were going to have holdover anyways." I'm on the no list and have OT every week in July and August. No more than 2 OTs in a row? Give me rails of whatever's going up their nostrils.
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Jul 18, 2024 04:04
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I wonder if it’ll go down like the furlough where the rules will only be followed until an east coast airport is shut down and then it’s back to the usual
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Jul 19, 2024 01:04
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Everybody having a good day today?
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Jul 19, 2024 16:45
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Krime posted:Everybody having a good day today? It honestly wasn't bad in the middle of the country at least. It was mostly over early enough that traffic was fairly normal for my facility. Doesn't seem like it worked out as well for travelers.  Looks like my folks were spot on. My favorite part of this has been the area rep in the area I cross aisle in being absolutely adamant that no MOU had been signed lol. I can already see everyone bending over backwards to try and stay on our current schedule type for one more year instead of just ripping the bandaid off and doing something sensible that will keep us alive longer.
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Jul 22, 2024 19:27
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Ya, the internal discussion thus far has been predictably toxic. People who have repeatedly refused to participate in their union suddenly Pikachu-ing “WHAT DO YOU MEAN SOMETHING THAT EFFECTS ME IS CHANGING!?!?” It’s exhausting. The changes themselves are mostly positive overall. The no-continuous-assigned-OT-forever provision is a huge win. Can’t wait to watch the agency wrestle with the knock-on-effects on staffing though. It’s gonna be hilarious.
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Jul 22, 2024 20:58
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MrYenko posted:Ya, the internal discussion thus far has been predictably toxic. People who have repeatedly refused to participate in their union suddenly Pikachu-ing “WHAT DO YOU MEAN SOMETHING THAT EFFECTS ME IS CHANGING!?!?” I've said from the start that the agency, for the first time in decades, can actually say they're doing what they can to help with staffing as far as hiring goes. Too little, too late of course, but they're cranking up to something like 2800 hires a year or something. I get 90 emails a week about it. I've also said the agency just needed to do this and eat the grievances for not being able to schedule to numbers for a year or two while pointing at the attempt they're making to hire more people. And they're kind of doing that with just flat out stating that they'll curtail services if needed. Not like they aren't doing that constantly with staffing triggers anyway. This is definitely a huge positive overall. It'll be interesting to see what my facility does for controllers and supes. I'm very much of the opinion that straight shifts are the way to go just like literally every other 24/7 operation on the planet does. So many people don't want to for *reasons* even though I've yet to talk to anyone that didn't love the straights on the COVID schedule. And it wasn't just the 5 days off either. I've been questioning why supes are on the same schedule for a while, and no one knows and they all admittedly hate it but institutional inertia just keeps it going even on our end.
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Jul 22, 2024 21:55
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Already the majority of people in my area think it’s a good thing. My dumb guy observation is we still seem to be following the desires of guys who all retired at least 5 years ago for an FAA that hasn’t existed for 10 years.
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Jul 22, 2024 23:18
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Sinbad's Sex Tape posted:Already the majority of people in my area think it’s a good thing. My dumb guy observation is we still seem to be following the desires of guys who all retired at least 5 years ago for an FAA that hasn’t existed for 10 years. I’m becoming more and more of the opinion that the agency just needs to force straights. It seems like that’s what most people want and it does the most to actually accomplish the goal of fatigue mitigation. There’s absolutely zero overall consensus though and my god some of the schedules people are coming up with are just loving terrible. Just put your foot down and end it. Drag us kicking and screaming into living longer and happier.
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Jul 27, 2024 12:41
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Right now, for our area, the initial plan is 9-9-8-6-mid (length of shift, not start time.) Leaving the option for turning one 9 into a 10 and giving you a 7 hour mid. They're doing a lot of gymnastics to make it fit with the new 10/12 rule and cover the gap made by the 6, which is only being allowed for 2025.
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Jul 28, 2024 04:14
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its all nice on rice posted:Right now, for our area, the initial plan is 9-9-8-6-mid (length of shift, not start time.) Both areas I deal with understand that it's just a one year thing and you'll have to do this all again next year anyway, so just get rid of it. Outside of that, there's a complete lack of consensus. And that's the problem. The NATCA area schedule guy(and likely VP) was in on an overtime yesterday and we were talking and he actually agrees with me and had a talk with the incoming facrep about it a couple days ago when he came to the same realization I did. He was also onboard with each area doing their own thing, seeing what works, and then going from there as a building. He thinks that might be a NATCA killer locally at minimum. You're gonna have 1/2 to 2/3 of the area pissed at what ever you end up going with, maybe more if your negotiator has decided the schedule that he designed where you start your week with 2 10 hour mids is the obvious way to go and things fall apart. They know people that were on both sides of the MOU negotiation and it seems like the agency wants straight shifts, just rip the bandaid off now and do it and let the agency eat most of the poo poo from the fallout from the unhappy people.
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Jul 28, 2024 13:24
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fknlo posted:He thinks that might be a NATCA killer locally at minimum. You're gonna have 1/2 to 2/3 of the area pissed at what ever you end up going with, maybe more if your negotiator has decided the schedule that he designed where you start your week with 2 10 hour mids is the obvious way to go and things fall apart. This is a feature for management, not a bug. This is also why collaboration is by and large a loving disaster.
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Jul 28, 2024 13:51
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I'm not air traffic control but have a lot to do with rosters in continuous operations and wondering what you mean by "straights" For me the best roster is two days, two nights, four days off (12 hour shifts). Last time I done that it also had 20 shifts off annual leave each year. I like and love fixed rosters but my mum, who is a union organiser and a nurse will tell you over her dead body will they take away non-fixed rosters. Then she complains when she is on 1 night, 2 arvos, 1 day off, 1 night 6 arvos, etc all seems very purple circle driven who gets the pick of the shifts.
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Jul 30, 2024 13:50
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Right now we (mostly) work what we call “The Rattler.” It’s 8hr shifts. 1500-2300 1300-2100 1100-1900 1000-1800 0700-1500 Or if you have the mid that week (we’re 24/7, but workload and staffing is much lighter on the mid shift generally; We might have 14 or 16 controllers during the day, but only 2 on the mid) 1500-2300 1300-2100 1000-1800 0600-1400 2230-0630 Where the 2230 shift is the same afternoon as the 0600-1400, running through the night into the morning of your fifth duty day. People like it “because it maximizes your weekend.” It also singularly prevents you from having anything approaching a normal circadian rhythm, and doesn’t work with the upcoming rest time requirement. We can’t work more than 10hrs consecutively, so 12hr shifts are off the table. The senior half of almost all facilities feels that they have paid their dues and should have good days off (Fri/Sat or Sat/Sun) for the rest of their careers, so going to a rotating schedule of straight weekly shifts is mostly a nonstarter, despite it being the real solution.
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Jul 30, 2024 14:04
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Add to that the amount of OT everyone's working, and you're at the facility six days a week. Seven if you work a mid and get an OT mid on your Sunday. Last year I was at work 21 days in a row during the summer because of that. There's the occasional schedule with four 10hr shifts, but you'd just end up with two OT shifts instead of one. Although that wouldn't really fit with the new "no more than 2 OT in a row" rule.
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Jul 30, 2024 15:26
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its all nice on rice posted:Add to that the amount of OT everyone's working, and you're at the facility six days a week. Seven if you work a mid and get an OT mid on your Sunday. Last year I was at work 21 days in a row during the summer because of that. All of this as well. I’m on Alternate Work Schedule, where my normal shifts are 1300-2300 1100-2100 1000-2000 0700-1700 But I end up with two OTs every week anyway. Just continuous 56-60hr work weeks. The money is good but my life is falling apart, and I’m always loving exhausted.
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Jul 30, 2024 15:29
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My area was looking for volunteers this year to work all mids this year so I work all mids Sun-Thurs. Another guy works all mids Mon-Fri. We let our rattler guys work first every mid. It’s the best schedule I’ve had in 15 years. It definitely doesn’t work for everybody but I wake up with 7-9 hours before work everyday. People think I don’t get any sunlight but I’ve gotten more since I’m at home and not stuck in a building for most daytime hours. Have I worked 7 days a week since January? Yes, I’ve only missed 3 ots and I’m sitting at 0 hours of sick leave used. I’m also planning on working 0 ot after this year once my house is paid off so I’m working off some different motivations. I really haven’t lost a step controlling because I’ve been doing it so long and I’ve been getting my rear end kicked about once a week on the mid. It’s really worked for me and if it’s available next year I will do it again. Not sure if I’d do it 3 years in a row though.
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Jul 30, 2024 19:28
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I entirely believe that straight shifts for midnights is the only way to go. Did straight shifts (6p-6a) for 4 years before I started ATC. I felt normal, rested, etc. Came to ATC and did the rattler for 2 years before moving to AWS shifts. Rotating through N/N/D/D AWS is a million times better and more restful than working a daymid/mid. All that said, these rules are absolutely needed. I think it should go a step further where the shifts cannot be changed inside of a 72 hour window - even if you're held over, it should have to be excused absence to make up for the fatigue
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Jul 31, 2024 05:22
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TangoFox posted:I entirely believe that straight shifts for midnights is the only way to go. Did straight shifts (6p-6a) for 4 years before I started ATC. I felt normal, rested, etc. Came to ATC and did the rattler for 2 years before moving to AWS shifts. Rotating through N/N/D/D AWS is a million times better and more restful than working a daymid/mid. Yeah, straight mids are a necessity from a safety standpoint if nothing else. Our mids get busy, especially when there's weather. There's a legit safety issue if you have to be in there getting your rear end kicked for any real amount of time. Straight mids and it just being your shift takes care of that. There's apparently some sort of pressure from "outside the building" about at least supervisors working straight shifts and we've basically been told it's not happening. It's bullshit because for coverage reasons it's either straights or just the bullshit modified version of what we do now. I'll continue to think about how great our current schedule rotation is as I walk past the flower money envelope for the guy that had a heart attack in his front yard and died last week a couple years after retiring. I have to assume that this no straight shifts thing will apply to the controllers too but they're obviously being tight lipped about it. Can't have nice things. MrYenko posted:
That one isn't the worst with the quick turn being that long. Ours goes: 1445-2245 1330-2130 0700-1500 0545-1345 2230-0630 I never catch up from the quick turn when I have a mid.
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Jul 31, 2024 13:08
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fknlo posted:That one isn't the worst with the quick turn being that long. Ours goes: When we were better staffed, the midnighters would be assigned the third day day-shift just like that, but it was unsustainable with 3-person “crews.”
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Jul 31, 2024 13:17
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Mother of god your work rules. The Feds would never allow something like that on the other side of the radio and any airline with a halfway decent SMS or fatigue program would see their pilots calling off in droves. Just reading that makes me feel like I need to call off my next trip jeez.
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Jul 31, 2024 14:46
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Arson Daily posted:Mother of god your work rules. The Feds would never allow something like that on the other side of the radio and any airline with a halfway decent SMS or fatigue program would see their pilots calling off in droves. Just reading that makes me feel like I need to call off my next trip jeez. Neither the agency or natca have paid anything more than lip service to actually mitigating fatigue before this. Both sides have conducted multiple studies showing that our schedule is literally the worst thing possible when it comes to fatigue. Then they’d get swept under the rug so we can keep doing it. And here we are. Everyone is tired, bitter, and angry all the time. They’re burnt out and miserable. And we finally have the opportunity to do something massive to help ourselves and we’re not going to do it willingly.
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Jul 31, 2024 15:54
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Do you have a fatigue program at all? In pilot for pay world we have a minimum 10 hours rest with an opportunity for 8 hours sleep. It's usually more than that because 10 hours off as you know doesn't give you any real rest or the ability to eat a healthy meal or exercise. How long do you sit at your station controlling airplanes? Do get any kind of real break when you're at work?
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Jul 31, 2024 17:57
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Arson Daily posted:Do you have a fatigue program at all? In pilot for pay world we have a minimum 10 hours rest with an opportunity for 8 hours sleep. It's usually more than that because 10 hours off as you know doesn't give you any real rest or the ability to eat a healthy meal or exercise. How long do you sit at your station controlling airplanes? Do get any kind of real break when you're at work? Time on position and breaks are going to be facility dependent. At mine most areas are at around 3.5 hours on position a day average. Our area with the worst staffing is at just over 4 hours a day on position. I know this because higher ups bring it up constantly.
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Jul 31, 2024 20:27
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Arson Daily posted:Mother of god your work rules. The Feds would never allow something like that on the other side of the radio and any airline with a halfway decent SMS or fatigue program would see their pilots calling off in droves. Just reading that makes me feel like I need to call off my next trip jeez. yeah, re-iterating this. That is just a crazy roster system that for me just blows chunks. I have a new found respect for ATC types. And also why that Angry New York controller was so angry all time - he was just cranky tired.
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Aug 2, 2024 20:47
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fknlo posted:Time on position and breaks are going to be facility dependent. At mine most areas are at around 3.5 hours on position a day average. Our area with the worst staffing is at just over 4 hours a day on position. I know this because higher ups bring it up constantly. This makes me realize I have no idea what a controller is doing when they're not on position then. I didn't really think about there being other things, much less other things that take up half a controller's day. What else are you doing that's not talking to airplanes?
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Aug 2, 2024 22:22
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Shitposting, mostly.  Your breaks are mostly free time to go decompress and think about things that aren’t working. When your area is slow and well staffed they can seem generous and excessive. On days like today, with holding, weather, training, and high traffic volume due to deviations, they aren’t nearly long enough.
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Aug 3, 2024 00:21
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Reztes posted:This makes me realize I have no idea what a controller is doing when they're not on position then. When I worked at a large center on the east coast we had a controller who would watch porn on his VR headset during his breaks. He would talk about what he planned to watch during his next break. Now I get to listen to boomer captains talk about their ex-wives and maga poo poo. Sometimes I miss the VR porn guy.
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Aug 3, 2024 02:57
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two_beer_bishes posted:Now I get to listen to boomer captains talk about their ex-wives and maga poo poo. Don't worry, center's are full of this too.
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Aug 3, 2024 09:40
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MrYenko posted:Shitposting, mostly. Sounds like it's ideal for 12 hour shifts and a little rest room with beds for a nap. Industrial processes like working in hot rooms, etc often only expect one of the guys to be in the heat and the other/rest recovering in a cool room/decompression space. While I guess there could be a tendency to say well just schedule shorter shifts and let people come in late/leave early, it does allow for redundancy to have the spare bodies there the entire time. There, my solution! Two/three bodies per slot, even time fixed roster, 20 shifts annual leave a year, 12 hr shifts. If the night shift is a bit quieter, then load up n/s with procedure reviews, training KPIs, etc. Can also have a proportion of permanent day crew (including most of the maintenance and the grown ups like center manager, etc).
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Aug 8, 2024 09:52
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Looking at the National Airspace Status on what seems like a fairly problematic summer thunderstorm night, there are also some big airports with these staffing things: DAL Departure Delay Updated 9:02 PM EDT +45 mins Staff:tmi zab staffing DFW Departure Delay Updated 7:55 PM EDT +15 mins Staff:zab staffing LAS Departure Delay Updated 8:34 PM EDT +30 mins Staff:mit zab staffing That's a center (Albuquerque?) not having enough people, yeah? Is that common?
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Aug 30, 2024 01:18
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Alpenglow posted:Looking at the National Airspace Status on what seems like a fairly problematic summer thunderstorm night, there are also some big airports with these staffing things: ZAB is Albuquerque Center, ya. Center staffing resulting in TMIs used to be vanishingly rare, and is now nearly a daily occurrence. The new fatigue rules are going to make it even more common.
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Aug 30, 2024 03:29
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They were also the break point for the weather and were going to have issues regardless of staffing. ZKC got hammered most of the day too, so did everyone to the south of us.
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Aug 30, 2024 12:57
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Have the really high up people made any noises about limiting the number of aircraft in the air due to controller staffing? Airlines (esp mine) love to blame ATC for their delays and I'm just wondering when the FAA might start pushing back on the seemingly never ending number of flights being added. There is certainly a maximum number of airplanes that can be in the air safely and it feels like we're getting pretty close to that number
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Sep 7, 2024 01:53
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It might be far easier, to change the regulations, so that max capacity is increased.
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Sep 7, 2024 07:42
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Arson Daily posted:Have the really high up people made any noises about limiting the number of aircraft in the air due to controller staffing? This happens daily already. Ground delays and ground stops take care of most of this with additional flow programs moving planes around areas that can’t be adequately staffed handling most of the rest.
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Sep 7, 2024 12:58
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TMU Goes to great pains to disguise staffing issues as literally anything else as well. Putting out a no-bullshit staffing triggered-TMI is the very last resort.
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Sep 7, 2024 13:25
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I believe a new open hiring bid will post for the FAA air traffic control job on October 11. If anyone on this site is under 31 years of age and not clinically depressed, keep your eyes out for the posting on USAJobs. https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-hits-air-traffic-controller-hiring-goal quote:As part of the FAA’s ongoing efforts to increase the pipeline of air traffic controllers, the agency will hold a new application period starting October 11, 2024. The October extended hiring window will allow for more time for future controllers to submit their applications and prepare for a future in the agency.
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Sep 30, 2024 11:53
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What would you do if you were the controller in die hard 2?
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Dec 9, 2024 00:42
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The whole thing didn't even make sense, BWI and Andrews are like, right there
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Dec 10, 2024 15:09
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The thing I found most ridiculous about that movie was snowmobiles in Loudoun County.
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