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Best Producer/Showrunner?
This poll is closed.
Verity Lambert 49 7.04%
John Wiles 1 0.14%
Innes Lloyd 1 0.14%
Peter Bryant 3 0.43%
Derrick Sherwin 3 0.43%
Barry Letts 12 1.72%
Phillip Hinchcliffe 62 8.91%
Graham Williams 3 0.43%
John Nathan-Turner 15 2.16%
Philip Segal 3 0.43%
Russel T Davies 106 15.23%
Steven Moffat 114 16.38%
Son Goku 324 46.55%
Total: 696 votes
[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

  • Locked thread
jisforjosh
Jun 6, 2006

"It's J is for...you know what? Fuck it, jizz it is"


kittiesgomeow posted:

And the Captain in Cold War is Davos Seaworth (the Onion Knight--Stannis' Hand who's missing his fingers). I feel like "Doctor Who" is the "Law & Order" of Britain--everyone's in it.

And the Lieutenant that is severely anti-American is Edmure Tully (the groom for the Red Wedding). It really is the Law and Order of Britain.

You've also got:

Diana Rigg (Crimson Horror for Doctor Who and the Queen of Thorns for Game of Thrones)

Iain Glen (Father Octavian in that Angels 2-parter and Jorah)

David Bradley (Solomon in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship/1st Doctor recreation and Walder Frey)

Several others in smaller roles and from Classic Who as well.

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docbeard
Jul 18, 2011

High marks for compassion, low marks for survival skills





Do not necessarily expect a lot of agreement about these choices.

For Five, Caves of Androzani is hands-down Davison's best story, and if I had to nail down a single episode or serial as my favorite across the entire span of Doctor Who, it's this one. Though it's, um, a bit of a downer. (It's also his last story, and certainly the best regeneration story the series ever did.). A lot of people rate Kinda pretty highly, though I didn't like it much. (It may warrant a rewatch, though.) The Five Doctors is a lot of shameless fun. Resurrection of the Daleks has some serious flaws, but it also does some things quite well. But if you had to pick one, Androzani's the one.

For Six, Vengeance on Varos has a script which rises to the lofty heights of 'competent', which is, sadly, more than can be said for most of his run. For the record so the thread doesn't murder me: Colin Baker is great. He was, probably, the only thing about his run that was great. The Two Doctors was all right. It has admittedly been a while since I've seen most of this, so don't take my word for any of it.

For Seven, I remember quite enjoying Paradise Towers, but you really want one where he's partnered up with Ace, so Remembrance For The Daleks or The Curse of Fenric are your standout choices. Curse is a much better episode, again one of the standouts of the series as a whole, but if you're interested in some thoughtful-but-light fun, Remembrance is your bunny. Ghost Light if you have access to a secret decoder ring or happen to be in the mood to watch it a few times to work out what's going on. (It's quite good once you get into it, but needlessly opaque). I like Survival (the last episode of the series) a lot, but it's one that, I feel, works better the more Who (and the more of Seven and Ace in particular) that you've seen.

Don't listen to anyone who tries to tell you that The Twin Dilemma is in any way watchable, such people are the enemies of all life and not to be trusted.

Also, I think if David Warner ever shows up on Game of Thrones, there might be some sort of explosion.

PriorMarcus
Oct 16, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY


Charles Dance would jump at the chance to play the Master. He is a massive Doctor Who fan.

kittiesgomeow
Oct 13, 2008

This avatar cost on average $27.


jisforjosh posted:

And the Lieutenant that is severely anti-American is Edmure Tully (the groom for the Red Wedding). It really is the Law and Order of Britain.

You've also got:

Diana Rigg (Crimson Horror for Doctor Who and the Queen of Thorns for Game of Thrones)

Iain Glen (Father Octavian in that Angels 2-parter and Jorah)

David Bradley (Solomon in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship/1st Doctor recreation and Walder Frey)

Several others in smaller roles and from Classic Who as well.

I definitely remembered Diana Rigg, David Bradley, and Iain Glen (except I didn't recognize him, just remembered his voice) but I definitely didn't know Edmure Tully was in it! I'll have to rewatch that episode. This show is the most fun.

Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

My whole life is a dark room.
One big, dark room.


Neddy Seagoon posted:

"Don't worry, you'll figure it out eventually. Mwa ha. MWA haha. MWAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"

ftfy

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


I should absolutely clarify- we're going to be doing this over and over again.

So once we're done with the first cycle of 1 through 7, we're going back to 1 and doing it again.

So I actually want to avoid Caves for the first Fifth Doctor story- it'd seem really weird for that to be our FIRST foray with the guy.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor


Burkion posted:

I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for Five, Six and Seven?

I was going to say Resurrection, Revelation, and Remembrance of the Daleks as a joke answer - but I actually kind of like the idea. Each of those encapsulate their Doctors' era quite well, for better or worse. The paranoia and sacrifice (not to mention the impact a single decision can have) of Davison, the body horror linked to real-world concerns of C-Bake and the introduction of Sylvester the mastermind. Not to mention the bloated casts and stupid plot elements, painful dialogue and tonal whiplash, and hilariously low budget resulting in poor editing and ghastly musical choices, respectively.

Start it off with Destiny, which is the peak of silly-Tom and the introduction of script editor Douglas Adams, and you're off!

If you can stand that much Dalek, that is. Otherwise Kinda (save Caves for after you've done more Davison, trust me), Two Doctors and Fenric.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor


Burkion posted:

I should absolutely clarify- we're going to be doing this over and over again.

So once we're done with the first cycle of 1 through 7, we're going back to 1 and doing it again.


Then yes, actually do the Dalek-athon. For real.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


I love that idea too much NOT to do it.

That will be the core of the second round.


Power/Evil of the Daleks will be found by then right?

Rght?

Neowyrm
Dec 23, 2011

It's not like I pack a lunch box full of missiles when I go to work!

Britain is a small island.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor


Here's another run of great serials that otherwise have nothing in common: Time Warrior, Brain of Morbius, Ribos Operation, Caves of Androzani and The Two Doctors.

I'd have said Deadly Assassin, but that benefits from having more classic Who under your belt. Especially Season 8.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

Coach Bloodbutt
Default Status: POOPING



Jerusalem posted:

We already have and we will again, don't be silly.

This is the Doctor Who thread, not the Battlestar Galactica thread

Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

My whole life is a dark room.
One big, dark room.


This is all very interesting stuff, yes, but what you must realize is WHERE ARE THE NEW EPISODES WHERE ARE THEY GIVE THEM TO ME BBC RIGHT NOW








Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


I'd actually recommend Remembrance of the Daleks over Curse of Fenric, not because I think it's a better story but because I think it is a more accessible one for somebody unfamiliar with the 7th Doctor. Curse is very good, but I think it works better when you're familiar with the 7th Doctor, and I'd make the same argument re: Caves of Androzani, which is brilliant but also immediately kills off the 5th Doctor (so I'd recommend Resurrection of the Daleks for him.)

For the Sixth Doctor, Vengeance on Varos is a good pick but I'd also eagerly recommend The Two Doctors, which is my personal favorite 6th Doctor story.

Chokes McGee posted:

This is all very interesting stuff, yes, but what you must realize is WHERE ARE THE NEW EPISODES WHERE ARE THEY GIVE THEM TO ME BBC RIGHT NOW

Agreed, though not quite enough that I'll hunt down the leaked episodes!

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

I found The Two Doctors unwatchable for its character assassination of Two. Caves is the only Five story I've been able to get through (on TV) so I just offered that up. And I guess Remembrance works better in this instance, maybe.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


The Last of the Time Lords is the final episode of season 3, and wraps everything up in a not particularly satisfying way. There are great individual elements of course, and some brilliant performances, but the whole thing doesn't really stand up either as a final episode or a wrap-up to the season arc. There are also some of the worst choices that the show has ever made, terrible ideas that might have worked (maybe) on paper but are absolutely appalling once they appear on the screen.

It's been a year since the Master threw off the pretense of Harold Saxon and revealed himself to the world for what he is. Since then, he has committed any number of atrocities and converted much of the planet into a war factory as he prepares to move on to the next phase of his plan. Never satisfied when there is more out there to take, he is planning to wage war on first another galaxy and then the universe itself, the "higher races" having already attempted to quarantine the Earth, unaware that the Master is more than just a global despot. The jump of a year allows us to see the extent of the Master's crimes, but also reduces them to intellectual affairs. Lines like "the only one to survive Japan alive" and "ALL of Russia are rocket-yards" sound chilling but are too great in scope and too detached by their position in the story's past to have any real impact on any of us. The closest we ever get to see of the every day victims of the Master's tyranny comes when Martha hides out in a house packed full of workers, and while they certainly aren't looking particularly cheery they hardly come across as the victims of a year-long campaign of forced labor, brutal culling and starvation. A family show like Doctor Who is never going to go too over the top with portraying the horrors of a global society that makes North Korea look welcoming - but it makes it hard to take the supposedly desperate, teetering on the edge of despair state of the earth too seriously.

The Master continues the over-the-top false cheer and goofiness of the previous story, which works for some viewers and not for the others. For me, there is something weirdly appropriate about the Master - triumphant and ruling over the entire planet as he's tried for so long to do - deciding to celebrate by turning his floating death station into a Breakfast Morning Radio Show. Our first look at him is as he gleefully wheels the aged Doctor (forced to live in a tent with a water-dish like a dog) about the bridge of his floating death platform singing along to Scissor Sisters, taking great pleasure in rubbing his captives' faces in his triumph. The Master is even more bombastic than in the previous episode, he no longer needs to pretend to be anything even remotely resembling a human being but despite being in a position of ultimate power he still insists on putting on an act. Why? To the benefit of whom? It makes a strange kind of sense given his history in the classic series, where he took great pleasure in hiding in plain sight and using painfully transparent alibis (or dressing up as a "magician" and faking his own death in front of an entirely unimpressed 5th Doctor). Why does the Master do anything he does? Nobody can really say because the guy is absolutely round the bend bonkers insane, and not at all a pleasant person. He lets the Doctor, Martha's family and Jack hatch plans just for the pleasure of letting them think they've succeeded before dashing their hopes. Why is he still roughly kissing Lucy and taunting her with bullshit plans to screw a masseuse or force her into a threesome? Because he loves loving with people more than anything else - he doesn't want to just rule the world, he wants to rule the world and make everybody KNOW he is ruling the world and that there is nothing they can do about it. He doesn't want their undying love (which he had as Saxon), he wants their undying fear and loathing and acknowledgement of his superiority.

This pathological desire to "win" seems to me to drive everything the Master does. Consider that once he is finally defeated by the Doctor the first thing he says is that it isn't fair, and that he goes so far as to deliberately die rather than regenerate just so he won't be in a position where he is the Doctor's prisoner rather than the other way around. Of course it'll turn out that he had another plan in mind in case everything went wrong that gets revealed in The End of Time, smacking a bit of a retcon but established at the end of this episode when RTD gave himself an out to bring the character back (in the classic series he'd just show up despite having died in a previous story!). That said though, I do think he would have done the same thing even if he hadn't had that back-up - the Master is a bad winner and a worse loser, if he can't have things his own way he'll burn everything to the ground, and he'd rather die than even for a moment let somebody think they're better than him.

Once again, Alexandra Moen gives a wonderful performance as Lucy Saxon. Unbalanced and barely clinging on to her sanity in the previous episode, in this one she's spent a year suffering the "prize" of being the Master's faithful companion. Though attention is never drawn to it or mentioned, she shows signs of having been beaten by the Master, and in one quiet moment inadvertently reveals the extent to which witnessing the unraveling of the universe has hosed her over. She walks a finer line than any other character in the episode, struggling to maintain her composure and "love" for the Master whenever he is looking at her, her face falling into a haunted thousand-yard-stare whenever he turns his attention to something else. She joins in with the rest of the planet "praying" to the Doctor towards the end of the episode, finally revealing her true colors the moment she sees a chance for her endless torture to end. When it becomes apparent that the Master isn't going to be executed for his crimes, she shoots him - and I don't think it's because of what he did to the rest of the world, but absolutely down to what he did to her. The Doctor - fresh from being Jesus Christ - mumbles that he didn't see her, and that's a pretty good summing up of her character. She was the forgotten person that nobody paid any attention to, the empty-headed smiling politician's wife not connected to any of the "main characters", just a background accessory for the Master - and that's what allowed her to step forth and do what she did without anybody noticing or stepping forward to stop her, because she was always just there. It's a shame that she returned for The End of Time, in what I think was supposed to be a cathartic moment of independence for her character, a catharsis I think she already had when she "prayed" to the Doctor and shot the Master.

After a full season of being "Not-Rose", Martha is given the bulk of the episode and acts as the primary protagonist until the Doctor's big overarching plan finally comes to fruition. She's seen some poo poo over the previous year, and become a legend in the eyes of the cowed populace of the planet, most of whom are unable to mount a resistance due to the continued influence of the Archangel Network. I mentioned in the previous episode write-up that this marked the start of the militarization of Martha as a character, which is perhaps a little unfair regarding THIS episode, as that is mostly the IMPRESSION that Martha gives throughout the episode. The legend that has grown around her is that she is the only person who can kill the Master, and she does in fact tell her compatriots that she has been hunting a gun created by UNIT that could kill either the Doctor or the Master. It's a story that the Master can believe because it is the way he thinks, and that gives Martha the best moment of her entire run on the show. In his ultimate moment of triumph as he gloats over defeating Martha and making her kneel before him, Martha laughs at the Master! She mocks HIM for believing that such a weapon exists, and the Doctor mocks the Master for thinking he would ever send somebody on a mission to get a gun. After a full episode of making people look at Martha as a militarized "badass" companion, she reveals that she has spent the year telling people stories about the Doctor. Where the Master brought oppression and fear, Martha spread a story of the Doctor's compassion and hope. It's fitting for a medical student, somebody training to be a doctor herself, and a more hopeful and inspiring way to look at her. Martha spent a year seeing the most horrible poo poo and never gave up hope or her belief in the Doctor. Of course, she still never really defines herself as a character, continuing to be little more than a reflection of the Doctor's attitudes. The most growth she gets is that she takes control of her own life and recognizes the unhealthiness of her one-sided infatuation with the Doctor (she really IS the Not-Rose!), choosing to remain on earth and help her traumatized family settle back into a world that never experienced the horrors they saw it go through. She insists she'll be back though, and she does return for a large chunk of season 4, and sadly that air of militarization she affected will prove to have come true. But for this episode at least, she takes a stand for herself and makes at least an attempt to step out of the shadow of the Doctor.

But if Martha is the disciple, that makes the Doctor Jesus. Almost literally. RTD's subtle moments (like Lucy Saxon) tend to get overlooked, perhaps because he's so over the top and clunky at other such pivotal moments. There are a couple of major plot points in this episode that probably sounded fine on paper, but it should have become painfully apparent very quickly that they were either a bad idea or needed to be executed far differently from the way they were. As punishment for the crime of plotting against the Master, the Doctor is aged up even further than he already was and becomes a tiny, wizened creature weighed down by the centuries of his life and the breakdown of his body. Not a bad idea.... except this gets put across on screen by turning the Doctor into Dobby the loving House Elf from Harry Potter. As part of his big plan to defeat the Master, the Doctor has spent a year integrating himself into the global psychic field of the Archangel Network, triggered by the mass projection of an identical thought by the people of the earth, set up by Martha during her pilgrimage. Not a bad idea... but what comes across on screen is horrifyingly blunt Jesus symbolism. The people of Earth pray to the Doctor, he rises again and beams with light, arms spread and feet hovering as he declares his forgiveness for the Master's sins. It's hardly the first time that television has used Jesus imagery but c'mon RTD, a little subtlety? (he'll actually go even further in the following Christmas Special!). It's also problematic given the Master's biblical references to himself as God, suggesting that if the Master was a false God then the Doctor is the real deal? This is an aspect of the revival I've always found a little unsettling (the lonely God), I far prefer the fairytale/imaginary friend take on the Doctor, or the eccentric scientist/adventurer.

After spending the episode showing all the things the Master changed, this episode hits the reset button pretty fiercely when Jack destroys the Paradox Machine (the cannibalized TARDIS) which was allowing the Toclafane to exist on Earth while destroying their own ancestors. RTD always seems to want to have his cake and eat it too. He wants a world where the alien invasions of Earth remain public knowledge BUT also one where the world is roughly the same one as our own. He wants to have the Master run roughshod over the planet and kill millions... then reset everything..... THEN have it still matter because a handful of characters remember it.... THEN have those survivors apparently not suffer any particular long-term trauma or stress. Martha's family's horror at all they witnessed is only given lip service before they apparently get fully over it. Even the Toclafane get glossed over, the Doctor casually muttering,"Oh they're back at the end of the Universe" without really addressing the utter horror of what is waiting for them. It's a powerful moment (clumsily revealed with flashbacks and audio cues) when we discover the Toclafane are the mentally regressed survivors of the human race facing the unraveling of creation, but nothing more comes of it. If anything, all that is left is an uneasy lingering feeling for the viewer that everything will eventually come to nothing and the universe will end and humanity will die as regressed, emotionally stunted children, which is hardly the kind of optimistic view on things you expect from Doctor Who. But then maybe the lights going out was just down to the events of season 4 which get canceled out at the end? Or it no longer happens thanks to the TARDIS rebooting the Universe in season 5? Or really ANYTHING other than RTD just going,"Then at the end everybody dies in terror! The End!" before moving on to another season of the Doctor's adventures.

Oh yeah, one other thing that bugged me - how did the Doctor repair the TARDIS? He says he fused the time circuits permanently so the Master could only travel back and forth to two points in time, but once all is said and done he (the Doctor) apparently repairs it back to its previous functionality. Surely the Master would have the know-how to do the same so why didn't he? I had the impression the Paradox Machine and the Toclafane were the plans he put into motion AFTER he realized he wasn't free to travel in time and space with his stolen TARDIS?

The Last of the Time Lords is not a particularly satisfying end to a not particularly satisfying season. It wraps up the season long storyarc but leaves a few unanswered questions and has some massive distractions/bizarre decisions in the likes of Dobby-Doctor and Jesus-Doctor. Martha gets a lot of screen-time and does a good job with it even if she is still has no character beyond being a reflection of the Doctor himself, and she does stand up for herself and show she has the emotional maturity to step out of an unhealthy relationship. Captain Jack serves little purpose but it is always nice to see him back, though again RTD can't resist cracking a pretty terrible joke suggesting that Jack will eventually become The Face of Boe - the true purpose of Jack's return was to allow him to move on in Torchwood Season 2, having found the Doctor again and yet deciding to remain on Earth with his team instead of always hoping he could escape and return to his galaxy/time hopping ways. I did get a bit of a laugh out of him telling the Doctor that he recreated Torchwood in tribute of the Doctor though, considering that one of the first things he did was hire an unapologetic rapist into his crew. The Master is a fascinating villain who gets to the Doctor in a way that none of the other villains of the series have managed to do, though his writing is quite uneven, and John Simm does the absolute best with the material he is given and appears to be having a blast while doing it. In the end though, the major problem I have is that nothing in this season really feels like it has any great impact (other than maybe John Smith's tearful begging to be allowed to exist in The Family of Blood, and Joan's refusal to let the Doctor charm his way into forgiveness). Martha was a non-entity, the season-long villain's actions were almost entirely wiped out of history, Martha's family had none of the charm or build that Rose's did (oh yeah, and Leo DOES show up again, so I guess Martha's new crush Tom is the real winner of the World Hide'n'Seek Championship), the Jesus symbolism was laid on way to thick, and actions in general felt like they didn't have consequences. Even after Martha leaves the Doctor alone, he barely has a few seconds to consider her departure when the next adventure comes literally crashing through the wall to sell viewers on the upcoming Christmas Special.

I don't regret watching the season at all (the back half has some great episodes) but it is certainly the weakest of the 4.5 RTD seasons in my opinion, and it is unfortunate that John Simm didn't get a chance to work with less schizophrenic material in either of the years that he played the Master. Happily though I'm now just one pretty awful Christmas Special away from the return of the best companion the revival has ever had - Donna Noble!

Jerusalem fucked around with this message at Jul 22, 2014 around 12:16

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005



Jinkies, there's only another month until it all starts again.

And right in the middle of the school holidays, natch. If I were the Controller of BBC One I'd have moved heaven, earth and light entertainment to hold it until, say, September 13th or 20th.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Trin Tragula posted:

Jinkies, there's only another month until it all starts again.

And right in the middle of the school holidays, natch. If I were the Controller of BBC One I'd have moved heaven, earth and light entertainment to hold it until, say, September 13th or 20th.

I understand your point but I still kind of want to murder you for even suggesting that NEW Doctor Who be delayed another month

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

There are lost episodes of course. Stories that were commissioned but never made. Or made but misfiled, post broadcast. Sheer incompetence, of course.

Sadly, the only things I remember from The Last of the Time Lords are the Scissor Sisters and the Doctor rewinding time to JUST after the US President was killed.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Oh yeah, one other thing that bugged me - how did the Doctor repair the TARDIS? He says he fused the time circuits permanently so the Master could only travel back and forth to two points in time, but once all is said and done he (the Doctor) apparently repairs it back to its previous functionality. Surely the Master would have the know-how to do the same so why didn't he? I had the impression the Paradox Machine and the Toclafane were the plans he put into motion AFTER he realized he wasn't free to travel in time and space with his stolen TARDIS?

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Fans always know better than the creators.


For a showrunner that seemed to make a point of being as atheistic as possible in his tenure (something I think he did deliberately say at some point), R.T.D. sure loved his God and Jesus references.

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.


Cleretic posted:

For a showrunner that seemed to make a point of being as atheistic as possible in his tenure (something I think he did deliberately say at some point), R.T.D. sure loved his God and Jesus references.

I remember reading in some magazine (DWM, maybe?) about how RTD was nominated for some award by a US-based Christian group for one of Tennant's episodes ("Gridlock", perhaps), and how he got a chuckle at the idea of this big gay Welshman going over to accept an award from a bunch of Yank fundamentalists.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


He also did Second Coming, in which Christopher Eccleston played the Son of God and has to avert the Apocalypse.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

There are lost episodes of course. Stories that were commissioned but never made. Or made but misfiled, post broadcast. Sheer incompetence, of course.

Sydney Bottocks posted:

I remember reading in some magazine (DWM, maybe?) about how RTD was nominated for some award by a US-based Christian group for one of Tennant's episodes ("Gridlock", perhaps), and how he got a chuckle at the idea of this big gay Welshman going over to accept an award from a bunch of Yank fundamentalists.

Hey, I know Christians get a bad rap for a couple of bigots shooting off their mouths, but the vast majority of us have no problem with him being Welsh!

Yannick_B
Oct 11, 2007


Cleretic posted:

For a showrunner that seemed to make a point of being as atheistic as possible in his tenure (something I think he did deliberately say at some point), R.T.D. sure loved his God and Jesus references.

Well, God is almost always created by science-fiction means in his episodes, that's still pretty atheistic.
The best bit is the guy being burned to ashes in Fires Of Pompeii.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Jeru> are you remembering Time Crash between LotTL and VotD?

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...


PriorMarcus posted:

Charles Dance would jump at the chance to play the Master. He is a massive Doctor Who fan.

All I can picture is him playing the Master the way he did Mr. Benedict in Last Action Hero.

Fil5000
Jun 23, 2003

HOLD ON GUYS I'M POSTING ABOUT INTERNET ROBOTS


Spoilers Below posted:

All I can picture is him playing the Master the way he did Mr. Benedict in Last Action Hero.

His turn as Lord Vetinari is pretty loving great too. He'd be a pretty Delgado like master I reckon.

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters

Spoilers Below posted:

All I can picture is him playing the Master the way he did Mr. Benedict in Last Action Hero.

I will always think of Charles Dance as Sardo Numspa in The Golden Child. I'm down with dapper demon as The Master.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


So long as Moffat doesn't turn the Master into a tumbler fanboy of the Doctor we're good.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


The_Doctor posted:

Jeru> are you remembering Time Crash between LotTL and VotD?

Yeah but there's not much to discuss about it other than,"It's a fun little bit of nonsense that puts the 5th and 10th Doctor together for a few minutes."

The Action Man
Oct 26, 2004

This is a good movie.

Jerusalem posted:

Yeah but there's not much to discuss about it other than,"It's a fun little bit of nonsense that puts the 5th and 10th Doctor together for a few minutes."

I do think there is an interesting discussion to be had about which Doctor the Tenth/his actor/his creators think he is most like and which he actually resembles most.

I'm not sure if that's worth basing a review around, but I really don't believe 10's pitch that he's anything like the fatherly, patient, put upon Fifth Doctor beyond some surface similarities.

He's bombastic, constantly tooting his own horn, speechifies about his status as a Time Lord at the drop of a hat, and has been consistently emotionally abusive to at least one companion (Martha).

I honestly think that 10 is a terrible sense of style away from being like TV's Sixth Doctor. However, I would never compare him to BF Sixie.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


It's a nice bit of 4th wall bending, since it's really about paying tribute to Peter Davison who Moffat was a big fan of. Tennant was as well as far as I know, though I don't know if he was "Tennant's Doctor" as he was for Moffat. The 10th Doctor himself is nothing like the 5th Doctor, who Davison played as a harried big brother who isn't quite on top of things and is constantly on the run trying to keep everything together. The only trait they really share is that they were both considered young heartthrobs and did a lot of running around. But it was nice to pay tribute to Davison, who had the enormous obstacle to overcome of replacing Tom Baker, and who many (perhaps unfairly) consider to be the last actor to play the Doctor before the show went off a cliff quality-wise (throw the blame squarely on the BBC and NOT on Colin Baker or Sylvester McCoy).

It is interesting to look at the story - fun charity nonsense that it might have been - as another example of Moffat's penchant for time-bending stories with clever/paradoxical resolutions. The 10th Doctor impresses the 5th Doctor with the skill with which he solves the problem... only for him to belatedly realize that 10 is just repeating what he saw back when he was 5.

There are another couple neat 4th wall bending jokes, perhaps the best being their discussion of the Master's beard, which is a pretty blatant homosexuality joke. There's a few jokes about Davison's age (he did used to be the dashing hearthrob Doctor after all) as well as the 5th Doctor referencing LINDA from Love and Monsters and mistaking Tennant for a fanboy (which he is!).

I mean, it was a charity special and not really intended as anything more than basically a neat little distraction. It's a thrill to see Davison there though, and it acts as a nice bridge between the classic and revival (Graeme Harper directed the special, and is also the guy who directed Caves of Androzani!).

Cruel Rose
May 27, 2010

saaave gotham~
come on~
DO IT, BATMAN
FUCKING BATMAN I FUCKING HATE YOU


I just watched Attack of the Cybermen for the first time. Did... did I just watch a good Sixth Doctor TV story?

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

There are lost episodes of course. Stories that were commissioned but never made. Or made but misfiled, post broadcast. Sheer incompetence, of course.

Cruel Rose posted:

I just watched Attack of the Cybermen for the first time. Did... did I just watch a good Sixth Doctor TV story?

You watched half of a good one (the back half) and half of a "we're still trying to figure out if Six and Peri LIKE each other" one.

(Although, I kind of wanted the serial to go through on the jewelry robbery. The thieves were a neat bunch and I loved their little musical sting/motif)

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Cruel Rose posted:

I just watched Attack of the Cybermen for the first time. Did... did I just watch a good Sixth Doctor TV story?

I find it a bit of a mess really, though it has its moments. I am somehow always surprised when I remember it's supposed to be linked heavily with The Tenth Planet and Tomb of the Cybermen - the continuity references are jammed in for their own sake and the grim, almost nihilistic atmosphere of the story doesn't really grab me. The Doctor questioning his dismissal of Lytton's morality is a nice touch though.

But gently caress repairing the Chameleon Circuit and the running gag of its various new appearances

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

Jerusalem posted:

I am somehow always surprised when I remember it's supposed to be linked heavily with The Tenth Planet and Tomb of the Cybermen - the continuity references are jammed in for their own sake

That'd be Ian Levine's doing.

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.


Jerusalem posted:

Tennant was as well as far as I know, though I don't know if he was "Tennant's Doctor" as he was for Moffat.

Tennant married the man's daughter, doesn't get much more Fifth fanboyish than that.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


I just always think about that intro to the DVDs that Tennant wrote, where he travels back in time to see himself as a kid and excitedly tells him that when he grows up he gets to be the Doctor, and Lil' Tennant's reaction is a despaired,"So Tom Baker leaves!?! "

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Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Jerusalem posted:

I find it a bit of a mess really, though it has its moments. I am somehow always surprised when I remember it's supposed to be linked heavily with The Tenth Planet and Tomb of the Cybermen - the continuity references are jammed in for their own sake and the grim, almost nihilistic atmosphere of the story doesn't really grab me. The Doctor questioning his dismissal of Lytton's morality is a nice touch though.

But gently caress repairing the Chameleon Circuit and the running gag of its various new appearances

I love the gag from The Light At The End, of Eight and Four despairing at the idea they'd ever do such a thing.

"Could we ever become so vulgar?"

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