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Best Producer/Showrunner?
This poll is closed.
Verity Lambert 49 7.04%
John Wiles 1 0.14%
Innes Lloyd 1 0.14%
Peter Bryant 3 0.43%
Derrick Sherwin 3 0.43%
Barry Letts 12 1.72%
Phillip Hinchcliffe 62 8.91%
Graham Williams 3 0.43%
John Nathan-Turner 15 2.16%
Philip Segal 3 0.43%
Russel T Davies 106 15.23%
Steven Moffat 114 16.38%
Son Goku 324 46.55%
Total: 696 votes
[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

  • Locked thread
The Action Man
Oct 26, 2004

This is a good movie.

Bicyclops posted:

"Why would this fellow named Chesterton be so interested in training students to travel with me? I wonder if Chatterfield put him up to this."

I can't be crazy for assuming it's only a matter of time until William Russell returns for an Ian Chesterton cameo, right?

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The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


The Action Man posted:

I can't be crazy for assuming it's only a matter of time until William Russell returns for an Ian Chesterton cameo, right?

And if Capaldi doesn't call him the wrong name at least once, even in affectionate joking, there's no justice.

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

Power Gamer for Hire


Gaz-L posted:

Heh, post 50th and the Doctor's travelling with a pair of teachers from Coal Hill. Cute, Moffat, cute.


Hmm. Now I'm wondering if they'll finally get back to doing something with Susan....

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?


Bicyclops posted:

"Why would this fellow named Chesterton be so interested in training students to travel with me? I wonder if Chatterfield put him up to this."

That would explain why they have a class dedicated to fighting Aztecs. Also how to talk people out of murdering with rocks 101.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor


CobiWann posted:

Im thinking about starting with The Eye of the Scorpion and The Church and the Crown, as theyre fun historical adventure stories and shes familiar with Five.

See if you can track down No Place Like Home. It takes place immediately after Church and the Crown and would be pitch perfect for a younger listener.

Sekkira
Apr 11, 2008

I Don't Get It,
I Don't Get It,



Evil Sagan posted:

I kind of hope they keep the whole Coal Hill thing as a cute coincidence and nod to the older series, and not the center of some big decade-spanning metaplot retroactively applied to Hartnell's run.

Every time Moffat talks about upcoming developments in the show, my penis sort of shrinks inside my body.

You say this as if a decade spanning meta plot wouldn't be AWESOME.

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?


Sekkira posted:

You say this as if a decade spanning meta plot wouldn't be AWESOME.

They can then bring the looms out!

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Sekkira posted:

You say this as if a decade spanning meta plot wouldn't be AWESOME.

Yes, he does

Sekkira
Apr 11, 2008

I Don't Get It,
I Don't Get It,



Well, he's certainly mad.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


The only acceptable decades-spanning plot is the one in which the Doctor returns to Earth in the distant future just before it is about to explode for whatever reason it's exploding this time and says "Hey, Suse, remember when I said I would be back? Well, here I am! How's tricks with the boyfriend?" and then the shot zooms out and he's talking to a skeleton.

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?


Bicyclops posted:

The only acceptable decades-spanning plot is the one in which the Doctor returns to Earth in the distant future just before it is about to explode for whatever reason it's exploding this time and says "Hey, Suse, remember when I said I would be back? Well, here I am! How's tricks with the boyfriend?" and then the shot zooms out and he's talking to a skeleton.

Only if he makes it talk back using the skull as a puppet.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


It's just a cute nod, and I think it's great that for all his adventures in time and space, the Doctor starts his new cycle of regenerations as an older man traveling with a couple of school teachers from Coal Hill.

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005



My bet for cute Hartnell references in the next series is on the Doctor finding a pair of anti-radiation gloves.









...drugs.

( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoxQKGDPtoo )

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?


Trin Tragula posted:

My bet for cute Hartnell references in the next series is on the Doctor finding a pair of anti-radiation gloves.









...drugs.

( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoxQKGDPtoo )

It will be him beating a man to death with a rock.

PantsOptional
Dec 27, 2012

All I wanna do is make you bounce

bobkatt013 posted:

It will be him beating a man to death with a rock.

The man who never would.

RunAndGun
Apr 30, 2011


The Action Man posted:

I can't be crazy for assuming it's only a matter of time until William Russell returns for an Ian Chesterton cameo, right?

I was half (3 quarters?) expecting to see him in the background when they showed the inside of the school with Clara.

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007



Jerusalem posted:

It's just a cute nod, and I think it's great that for all his adventures in time and space, the Doctor starts his new cycle of regenerations as an older man traveling with a couple of school teachers from Coal Hill.

Oh cool, what's it like having already seen series 8?

(I'll believe that it's just going to remain a cute nod when I see it.)

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


thexerox123 posted:

I'll believe that it's just going to remain a cute nod when I see it.

I'll believe that it's the center of some big decade-spanning metaplot retroactively applied to Hartnell's run when I see it.

Actually let me elaborate because that came of as really dickish of me, so sorry!

The revival has been very restrained in terms of playing about heavily in its own continuity, and avoided trying to rewrite the history of the classic series. The only real exception to this was last year which is completely forgivable as it was the 50th year of the show and the entire thing was a nostalgia driven wallowing in the show's history (The Day of the Doctor could only really work in light of it being the 50th year of the show). Clara becoming a school teacher was a playful nod to the origins of the show, but the show goes on and Clara is still in it so she is still a school teacher at Coal Hill, and given that the Doctor has taken to dropping his companions off between adventures now it makes sense that the school would still continue to feature in the show in some way. Given that the new character is called a recurring character as opposed to a companion, it makes a lot of sense that they'd chose another school teacher as it would provide somebody to react to Clara's odd behavior and frequent absences. If he becomes a companion (temporary, recurring OR permanent) then it's a neat little nod to the idea of the Doctor traveling with two companions who are Coal Hill Schoolteachers, especially if one of them is onboard because he was investigating a strange "girl" (Clara) at the school.

Based on how the revival has handled things so far (with the exception of the unique 50th year of the show), I find it far more likely that it is just a "cute nod" and not a "megaplot". After all, the Doctor returned to Coal Hill once before during the show's run, and that was due to it being the 25th year of the show, and what was a cute nod then is just as likely to be a cute nod now.

Jerusalem fucked around with this message at Feb 24, 2014 around 23:26

The Action Man
Oct 26, 2004

This is a good movie.

Jerusalem posted:

I'll believe that it's the center of some big decade-spanning metaplot retroactively applied to Hartnell's run when I see it.

Did he hide something else with the Hand of Omega?

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


thexerox123 posted:

Oh cool, what's it like having already seen series 8?

(I'll believe that it's just going to remain a cute nod when I see it.)

You can read the reviews and see what you think.

Box of Bunnies
Apr 3, 2012

One day, we'll know all the secrets of the skies, and we'll stop our wanderings.


The Action Man posted:

Did he hide something else with the Hand of Omega?

The Foot of the Other

FreezingInferno
Jul 15, 2010

THERE.
WILL.
BE.
NO.
BATTLE.
HERE!


Clearly series 8 will have Capaldi searching for the Hairdryer of Rassilon, and trying to get it before the Rani does.

Her fabulous hair could end space and time as we know it!

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Box of Bunnies posted:

The Foot of the Other

Clara: Who was "The Other", Doctor?
Doctor: A notoriously fertile sex-haver, Clara, he often said how proud he was to have personally and intimately fathered so many children. In fact, 95% of all Time Lords trace their genetics back to his constant sexual antics..... not me though, me and my family are one of the few with absolutely zero connection to him in any genetic, psychic or even geographical sense. Now if you'll excuse me I need to go and buy some more clothes for the wardrobe, as Time Lords have no ability to produce clothes themselves, having never developed looms.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

There are lost episodes of course. Stories that were commissioned but never made. Or made but misfiled, post broadcast. Sheer incompetence, of course.

Jerusalem posted:

Clara: Who was "The Other", Doctor?
Doctor: A notoriously fertile sex-haver, Clara, he often said how proud he was to have personally and intimately fathered so many children. In fact, 95% of all Time Lords trace their genetics back to his constant sexual antics..... not me though, me and my family are one of the few with absolutely zero connection to him in any genetic, psychic or even geographical sense. Now if you'll excuse me I need to go and buy some more clothes for the wardrobe, as Time Lords have no ability to produce clothes themselves, having never developed looms.

Clara - "But what about the garish colored coat that your Sixth incarnation hard? The Daleks considered its existence a war crime!"

CobiWann fucked around with this message at May 28, 2014 around 16:55

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


CobiWann posted:

Clara - "But what about the garish colored coat that your Sixth incarnation hard? The Daleks considered its existence a war crime!"

All joking aside, I kinda wish that whenever that coat might be brought up by anybody that the Doctor - in whatever incarnation - gets all huffy and defensive and insists that it was awesome.

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011



Jerusalem posted:

All joking aside, I kinda wish that whenever that coat might be brought up by anybody that the Doctor - in whatever incarnation - gets all huffy and defensive and insists that it was awesome.

His fingers curling, strained at the joints, veins in his wrists bulging.

Urge to strangle... rising...

RunAndGun
Apr 30, 2011


Jerusalem posted:

All joking aside, I kinda wish that whenever that coat might be brought up by anybody that the Doctor - in whatever incarnation - gets all huffy and defensive and insists that it was awesome.

What?

I LIKED that costume. Tell me you can find another Doctor with a costume anywhere near as... distinctive!

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

Jerusalem posted:

All joking aside, I kinda wish that whenever that coat might be brought up by anybody that the Doctor - in whatever incarnation - gets all huffy and defensive and insists that it was awesome.

Well it was. And still is.


want dat coat

MattD1zzl3
Oct 26, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 3418 days!


RunAndGun posted:

What?

I LIKED that costume. Tell me you can find another Doctor with a costume anywhere near as... distinctive!



Human memories are so fleeting

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor


Trin Tragula posted:

My bet for cute Hartnell references in the next series is on the Doctor finding a pair of anti-radiation gloves.

The only good part in Flip-Flip.


bobkatt013 posted:

It will be him beating a man to death with a rock.
*SIGH* And Master.

JacquelineDempsey
Aug 6, 2008

It's a horrible name for anything really but especially a shirt.


MattD1zzl3 posted:


Human memories are so fleeting

What is this pic from? I saw it in the OP as well but must've missed any discussion in the last thread.

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?


JacquelineDempsey posted:

What is this pic from? I saw it in the OP as well but must've missed any discussion in the last thread.

Someone needs to watch Timelash

Chairman Mao
Apr 24, 2004

The Chinese Communist Party is the core of leadership of the whole Chinese people. Without this core, the cause of socialism cannot be victorious.

Despite the thread title Timelash actually is that bad.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Timelash is overacted nonsense bad, not Twin Dilemma bad

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?


MrL_JaKiri posted:

Timelash is overacted nonsense bad, not Twin Dilemma bad

Still better than Time and the Rani!

JacquelineDempsey
Aug 6, 2008

It's a horrible name for anything really but especially a shirt.


bobkatt013 posted:

Someone needs to watch Timelash

I'm sure I did back when my PBS was showing that era in the 80's... there's a quite a few CBakes episodes I probably only saw once, decades ago. I should correct that.

Thanks to this thread I did just introduce my bf to "Doctor in Distress", and that's enough horror for tonight. (How has he been a fan for 30+ years and never heard that?!)

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?


JacquelineDempsey posted:

I'm sure I did back when my PBS was showing that era in the 80's... there's a quite a few CBakes episodes I probably only saw once, decades ago. I should correct that.

Thanks to this thread I did just introduce my bf to "Doctor in Distress", and that's enough horror for tonight. (How has he been a fan for 30+ years and never heard that?!)

You should tell him that Hans Zimmer was the one who was playing the music.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


I've just found a BBC article, almost a month old, on interpretations of Capaldi's outfit. Mostly been covered here, but I can't beleive I didn't cotton on to this bit:

quote:

The Crombie overcoat and Dr Martens-style boots suggest the Gallifreyan has come straight from the front row of a 1979 ska gig. "It does have that whole Madness thing to it," says fashion expert and former Queer Eye For The Straight Guy presenter Julian Bennett.

In season eight the Doctor will accidentally land the TARDIS on Jerry Dammers and has to write "Ghost Town" himself to prevent a time paradox.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


The Girl in the Fireplace is Steven Moffat's second story for the Doctor Who revival, and considered by many to be the best episode of the second season. Watching it now with the benefit of hindsight, it is easy to see many of the common recurring elements of Moffat stories. Whether you think that is a problem or not is up to you, but for me this story still holds up well - those same recurring themes (a character falling in love with the Doctor, repeated phrases, childhood fears being "real", "Doctor who?"/The Name of the Doctor, the Doctor jumping through different points of a person's life etc) are handled with somewhat more subtlety than could be said of future stories.

Considering Moffat's own embracing of the RTD format of a bigger over-arching storyline for a season, it is also rather remarkable that this story actually stands alone from season 2's character and storyarcs. Torchwood is nowhere to be seen, Rose's growing obsession with the Doctor is almost entirely absent outside of some smug needling by Mickey, and in the latter case there is also a complete lack of the quiet animosity Rose showed towards the idea of Mickey traveling with them at the end of School Reunion. There are reasons for this, of course, most notably that this story was originally intended to air earlier in the season, and that RTD had enough confidence in Moffat (and enough on his own plate!) to leave him to produce the story in his own little vacuum. RTD gave him no season arc instructions or suggestions, didn't edit in any after he got the script, seemingly believing the story was strong enough to stand on its own merits and didn't require anything extra added in. As a result, this story stands apart, a little island poking out of the ocean that is the rest of the season. Which isn't to say that this story is all Moffat/no RTD, because it isn't. RTD wanted a story with Madame de Pompadour, he wanted it to be a love story (that wasn't Moffat's invention, but all at RTD's directive), and even the wonderfully creepy Clockwork Men exist as a concept because RTD was inspired by The Turk, which would also serve as an inspiration in Neil Gaiman's Nightmare in Silver during Moffat's run. Moffat often got a lot of (quite justified!) credit for the quality of the stories he produced during the RTD era, but it pays to remember that RTD was the driving force behind the revival, and that the writers producing quality stories during that period were working off of his ideas and instructions. So I think both RTD and Moffat deserve the credit for how good this story is, and should share the blame for any problems that it may have or parts that people didn't like.

Take out the kissing and what you have here is a story that feels almost like a throwback to some of the gloriously weird stuff of the early classic years. The Doctor and companions arrive on an abandoned spaceship and discover windows to other times and a very specific place - a ship in the 51st century leading to 18th Century France. There is a strong sense of the surreal, parts of the ship have been repaired with the organic components of the crew, eyes in security cameras and hearts working as fuel-pumps. A horse clomps about the empty corridors in the 51st Century, while Clockwork men dressed in period costume wearing creepy masks stalk a woman through the years of her life. At its heart though the surreal elements are window-dressing for the real story, which is the near immediate bond that forms between the Doctor and Madame de Pompadour. Meeting her initially as a child where he is the brave and heroic figure who saves her from the very real monsters that live under the bed, the next time they meet she is an adult who responds with astonishing speed to the bizarreness of their situation. By all accounts Jeanne Poisson WAS a very remarkable woman, but it still feels like it is straining credulity in the way she so quickly adapts to the madness of what is happening. Even so, it does lead to some great scenes, such as when Rose is trying to figure out how to explain an utterly alien and impossible concept that she (a time-traveler!) is having trouble understanding, only for Madame de Pompadour to easily (almost dismissively) grasp and explain the concept to her. Throughout the story, she carries herself with poise and dignity, befitting somebody who was raised from a child to be the second most powerful woman in France. Even so, there is a sense (for me at least) of Moffat being a little too in love with the character, as she takes everything in her stride, figures out how to read the Doctor's mind based on some pretty flimsy story-logic, and especially in how she talks about always dreaming of seeing the stars close-up. There is a lot more that could be said about a character like Madame de Pompadour, the surface is barely scratched in this story (which to be fair is not a biopic), and it bugs me a bit that they try to reduce her interest with the Doctor as almost purely a romantic one. Given that her longstanding close relationship with the King was non-sexual for most of their association in spite of the fact she was his Mistress, I disliked the idea of her falling in love like a giddy schoolgirl with the Doctor as opposed to falling in love with the notion of exploring a larger world than she ever conceived of existing till she met him. It goes unspoken, but there is a quiet desperation in her final written words to the Doctor - she appears to have accepted her coming death with that same poise and dignity shown throughout the episode, but also seems to still believe that her imaginary friend/hero/love will show up to save the day one last time. Of course he doesn't, and we see again that the Doctor does not deal well with goodbyes.

It is only brief, but there is an echo of the morality issues from The Unquiet Dead and The Doctor Dances in season one. Madame de Pompadour was the King's Mistress, but while Rose and Mickey laugh and make jokes about "Camilla", the Doctor explains casually that there was nothing salacious or scandalous about it at the time. She was raised to be his Mistress, she was friends with the Queen, her role was official and she had a firm and accepted involvement in politics and the arts. The Doctor jokes about "the French", but he is giving the supposedly enlightened 21st Century Mickey and Rose (an interracial couple, remember) a lesson in the fact that their morality is not necessarily the only one. Just because they're from the "future" doesn't mean they are automatically more tolerant and accepting, or that their idea of what sexual norms are will be more liberal than those of the past. I don't recall there being any complaints about the fact that this family show threw in the notion of accepted extra-marital affairs as not just existing, but the "hero" being absolutely fine with it, but I imagine Mary Whitehouse might be rolling in her grave.

I mentioned earlier that the story doesn't really fit into the season arc involving Rose, but that isn't entirely accurate. There are definite parallels between Rose and Madame de Pompadour even if they weren't deliberate, or if later strongly similar situations are merely coincidence. The Doctor, (despite a joke about snogging her) is clearly uncomfortable with her romantic interest and unsure exactly how to deal with it. He attempts to distance himself from her when he can (sending Rose to see her instead), makes no suggestion of being with her when he believes he is stuck in the 18th Century, and quickly leaps at the idea of turning her into a Companion as that is, to him, a "safe" way of engaging in a relationship with a human female. That is what he understands and what he is comfortable with, and his offer to Madame de Pompadour to join them in their travels is also his way of negating the "threat" of her romantic interest. Later in the season he will find himself in a similar situation with Rose when they believe they are "trapped" in roughly the 40th Century, but he will be completely oblivious to her suggestions of "shacking up", worrying about money and a job and a house just like he worries about money in this story. In hindsight, he (and we) can look back on this episode as a warning of the dangers and eventual fate coming for Rose - she fell in love with the Doctor and the impossible dream he made into a tangible reality, but she couldn't spend her life waiting for the Doctor to show back up and take her away from the mundanity of real life. Rose got off easy compared to Madame de Pompadour, and it is unfortunate that season 4 took away from the lesson she was forced to learn. Instead of standing on her own two feet and living her own life she threw herself back into the Doctor's wake and gave up any possible chance to be her own person to once again exist as a prop to humanize and "fix" the Doctor, even if it wasn't THE Doctor.

This is the only standalone story to feature Mickey as a regular companion. After this comes a two-parter that mostly keeps him apart from the Doctor/Rose combo and then sees him leave. It was a shame that we didn't get to see an exploration of that bad attitude Rose had towards him in School Reunion, in fact much of the episode's interactions between the two sees them enjoying each other's company and having a good time. Mickey eagerly joins in with Rose's decision to ignore the Doctor's admonishment to stay put, and though he goads her a little about the Madame de Pompadour there is no sense of conflict between them at all, in fact you'd almost think they were still together as a couple (shades of Amy/Rory-to-be perhaps?). The three-person TARDIS dynamic never really gets a chance in the revival until Moffat's run, even the much lauded 9th Doctor/Rose/Jack team was very short-lived and didn't involve all of them on-screen together for very long (in fact, Mickey was there for a large part of it!).

Quite wonderfully, the story ends with the Doctor none the wiser for WHY all this happened. Sure, he knows that the Clockwork Men were "stupid" and got it into their heads that Madame de Pompadour's brain could restore their ship to proper functioning order, but he doesn't know why they fixated on her. In the end he chalks it up to the incomprehensible and unshakeable conclusion their machine-minds came to while trying to complete their programming after being damaged by the ion storm - fix the ship, the ship must be fixed, the ship is broken, fix the ship, the ship needs parts, there are no parts, find parts, fix the ship, the crew have parts, take their parts, fix the ship etc, etc until somehow they reached the point of find Madame de Pompadour, take her brain, the ship will be fixed. I think it is great that the story ends with us being shown the reason why - the ship is named after Madame de Pompadour, the Clockwork Men determined that the broken "brain" of the 37-year-old ship could be fixed by replacing it with the brain of the 37-year-old Jeanne Poisson. The Clockwork Men are a fantastic "monster", they look spooky as hell in their masks and wigs and even creepier when the elegant clockwork interiors are revealed. Why were robots designed like that? How advanced were they? We'll never know, but for all we know the SS Madame de Pompadour was a museum ship or a research vessel or even a high-end designer 51st Century fashion label, with the ship's systems fully automated and all the grunt work done by robots ala Robots of Death. In any event, how great is it that in their super-advanced but "stupid" non-sentient state they were able to build windows in space/time but didn't take that extra step of just transporting back to the shipyards in the present instead of 18th Century France? They're brilliant idiots, operating without malice or emotion and without consciousness. They're one of the neatest villains of the revival era, and it is nice that Moffat has (so far at least) resisted his tendency to revisit the creatures/monsters that make an impact on the viewers.

The Girl in the Fireplace is well-deserving of its high regard. In parts a clever time-travel story, in others a look at the fascinating life of a fascinating woman, in still others a strange form of "love" story between the Doctor and a human woman. It has its problems but stands out strongly as a mostly standalone story in a season more focused on exploring the relationship between the Doctor and Rose. More of a Doctor story, the companions suffer somewhat as a result, but the guest star (Sophia Myles) more than holds her own and earns the focus she is given.

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CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

There are lost episodes of course. Stories that were commissioned but never made. Or made but misfiled, post broadcast. Sheer incompetence, of course.

Jerusalem posted:

They're brilliant idiots, operating without malice or emotion and without consciousness

A line that could describe most Who antagonists. They do things because that's just the way things are done. Things are done that way because that's how they do things. Repeat.

What did you think of the Im the King of France/well, Im the Lord of Time exchange? Moffat snarkiness, Doctor arrogance, or a hint of the Time Lord Victorious?

I liked the exchange when I first heard it turn down Tennants arrogance a bit and its a line Four would have said casually but it stuck with me because a reviewer I used to read HATED it to the point of an entire paragraphs worth of ranting.


CobiWann fucked around with this message at Feb 25, 2014 around 11:54

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