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redshirt posted:I just powered through the last 200 pages again, and I think this interpretation is correct. Jad destroys the transmitter in order to sever the causality link between Abre and the group in orbit, allowing Jad to control the Narrative without outside interference. I think it's that Jaad can mess with the Narrative around himself, but having an observer outside his story collapses it. So he destroys the transmitter so he can manipulate things, but Erasmus serves as his way of collapsing the timeline into a final, acceptable result
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Mar 14, 2014 15:07
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Nevvy Z posted:I think it's that Jaad can mess with the Narrative around himself, but having an observer outside his story collapses it. So he destroys the transmitter so he can manipulate things, but Erasmus serves as his way of collapsing the timeline into a final, acceptable result So, Incanters are real? Also, I feel like we got close to confirmation that Jaad is over a thousand years old, but not quite. Does it seem logical to assume all the Thousanders were actually over 1000 years old and capable of "magic"? Thus the aliens were right to be quite afraid of them? .
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Mar 14, 2014 15:29
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redshirt posted:So, Incanters are real? Also, I feel like we got close to confirmation that Jaad is over a thousand years old, but not quite. Does it seem logical to assume all the Thousanders were actually over 1000 years old and capable of "magic"? Thus the aliens were right to be quite afraid of them? . I think its interesting that while the focus is on the Incanters, Jad working through multiple timelines simultaneously wouldn't mean much without the Rhetor ability to basically "change" the past. Jad can change events near him, but the Rhetors are needed to create a single timeline for Arbre.
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Mar 14, 2014 16:07
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It's been awhile since I read it, but I was pretty sure the both Incantors and Rhetor's were basically just conceptual contructs used to try to describe or understand this multi-narrative multi-verse. If reality exists as a configuration space that inherently interacts with itself, and narrative realities are simply lines of continuity through this space AND it's possible to "change tracks" so to speak when your narrative intersects another, you don't need anything else. No one needs to "create a single timeline for Arbre" because all they did was continue to shift into a narrative where things more or less worked out. From the perspective of people who are in positions to witness the effects of this it can seem like all kinds of other crazy things happen, like changing the past etc. This is partially because it is also established that your unconsious mind actually spans parallel narratives. This seems like a throwaway bullshit pseudoscience line when it's first mentioned, but it ends up being a key idea in how the multiverse operates and how "changes" like Fraa Jaad performs effect other people. This is also how Thousanders are able to "change" anything at all: The workings of the mind span parallel realities unconsciously, Thousanders just learned to become conscious of this and can essentially unify their consciousness across all similar realities. Since they are using information from other realities to inform their actions, they are almost certainly triggering deja vu type responses in other people who's unconscious minds are recognizing things that their other-reality conscious minds observed.
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Mar 14, 2014 18:06
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I thought that the Rhetors were totally bullshit. They never existed really, they are just annoying assholes who like to try to linguististically gently caress with people
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Mar 14, 2014 19:24
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Nevvy Z posted:I thought that the Rhetors were totally bullshit. They never existed really, they are just annoying assholes who like to try to linguististically gently caress with people Are you referring to Fraa Lodoghir?
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Mar 15, 2014 01:07
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redshirt posted:Are you referring to Fraa Lodoghir? I'm not sure what's up with him, because since he wasn't with cell 317 he shouldn't be aware of the narratives collapsing, yet he seems to think that Fraa Jad is still alive despite records showing him being dead.
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Mar 15, 2014 01:16
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Cimber posted:No, Fraa Jad actually shifts his consciousness to different causal domains. Thats why Fraa E feels the everything killers going off in his belly (they were the big pill they swalloed before taking off) when they were attacked by the guards. But in another casual domain Fraa Jad was able to meet and talk to the space ship captain and figure out questions about the wick, IE Arbe was upstream in the HTW than earth and the other two planets. Also don't forget that Fraa Jad 'died' on launch, which is why he was always so quiet in space until he smashed the transmitters. They developed this ability while sitting around watching nuclear waste. They were getting radiation poisioning from the waste, so they figured out how to shift consciousness to narratives that they did not take the damage at that point in time. Thats also how Fraa Jad is supposed to be hundreds if not thousands of years old. I disagree. None of what you posted actually goes against my interpretation at all. I don't think he's shifting consciousnesses, but rather allowing other people to witness the other casual domains. He's not moving from one Fraa Jad to another. Every Fraa Jad is aware of every other Fraa Jad simultaneously. They're working in tandem. Jad flat out explains how they survive radiation poisoning. In some world tracks the radiation effects them, in some it doesn't, and in the ones that it doesn't it's because their cells don't get damaged, so they don't age like normal people.
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Mar 15, 2014 03:23
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Atlas Hugged posted:I disagree. None of what you posted actually goes against my interpretation at all. I don't think he's shifting consciousnesses, but rather allowing other people to witness the other casual domains. He's not moving from one Fraa Jad to another. Every Fraa Jad is aware of every other Fraa Jad simultaneously. They're working in tandem. That is very possible. Now, how about this. Is Fraa Jad the same thing as Enoch Root?
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Mar 15, 2014 04:03
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Cimber posted:That is very possible. You just blew my loving mind.
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Mar 15, 2014 04:06
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Nevvy Z posted:You just blew my loving mind. 
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Mar 15, 2014 04:13
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Cimber posted:That is very possible. Holy poo poo.
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Mar 15, 2014 04:19
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withak posted:Holy poo poo. We have already established that earth is in the same story universe as Arbe. Einstein and Godel are explicitly mentioned, so its very possible that Cryptonomicon and Anathem take place in the same multiverse. And that would really explain what Enoch Root is able to do.
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Mar 15, 2014 04:30
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Nevvy Z posted:You just blew my loving mind.
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Mar 15, 2014 04:31
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Except we know that what Enoch does is explicitly alchemy.
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Mar 15, 2014 05:52
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Atlas Hugged posted:Except we know that what Enoch does is explicitly alchemy. Which is possible because in another narrative those atoms were a different element... (I am mostly joking) Snak fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Mar 15, 2014 |
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Mar 15, 2014 06:36
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Snak posted:Which is possible because in another narrative those atoms were a different element... (I am mostly joking) lets put spoiler tags please. now then Perhaps the heavy Gold Enoch is so involved in is simply the 'newmatter' of Anathem? Slightly different atoms?
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Mar 15, 2014 13:05
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Cimber posted:lets put spoiler tags please. How loving funny would it have been if the French guy had instead introduced himself as Mr. Waterhouse.
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Mar 15, 2014 15:10
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Snak posted:It's been awhile since I read it, but I was pretty sure the both Incantors and Rhetor's were basically just conceptual contructs used to try to describe or understand this multi-narrative multi-verse. If reality exists as a configuration space that inherently interacts with itself, and narrative realities are simply lines of continuity through this space AND it's possible to "change tracks" so to speak when your narrative intersects another, you don't need anything else. No one needs to "create a single timeline for Arbre" because all they did was continue to shift into a narrative where things more or less worked out. From the perspective of people who are in positions to witness the effects of this it can seem like all kinds of other crazy things happen, like changing the past etc. This is partially because it is also established that your unconsious mind actually spans parallel narratives. This seems like a throwaway bullshit pseudoscience line when it's first mentioned, but it ends up being a key idea in how the multiverse operates and how "changes" like Fraa Jaad performs effect other people. This is also how Thousanders are able to "change" anything at all: The workings of the mind span parallel realities unconsciously, Thousanders just learned to become conscious of this and can essentially unify their consciousness across all similar realities. Since they are using information from other realities to inform their actions, they are almost certainly triggering deja vu type responses in other people who's unconscious minds are recognizing things that their other-reality conscious minds observed. That implies that there is some mechanism where people are pulling information from other Narratives and using in them in different ones. Jad does it when he puts in the code, and Lodoghir is strongly implied to be able to do it by being aware of other Narratives. Jad also seems to more "change tracks" while Lodoghir is aware of other tracks but not "switch" between them, if that makes any sense. Though again, I haven't re-read it recently. edit: Remember when Erasmus says that nobody would believe a block of ice inside a sun unless there was an explanation for it being there? I think that's what essentially happened. The Valer attack is a good enough reason that people go along with it, but what actually tipped the scales over for Arbre was the combo of the Everything Killers and the extra information, accomplished by Jad and Jad. But neither of those things "happened", but there was a compelling explanation created. I don't necessarily think that they just happened in another Narrative that we weren't privy to; if Jad essentially picked Narratives from all the options, why does Lodoghir state there's a reason that Jad must be dead in the current Narrative they are in? Surely, if Jad could just keep picking up Narrative options, he could work out one where everything works at once? I think the 3rd storyline being a combination of two ended ones is indicative of outside work, is all. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Mar 15, 2014 |
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Mar 15, 2014 21:54
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Ravenfood posted:That implies that there is some mechanism where people are pulling information from other Narratives and using in them in different ones. This is outright stated earlier in the book as the reason for/nature of consciousness. The only difference is that Fraa Jad (and presumably other Thousanders) have developed a praxis/method for consciously accessing/manipulating different Narratives as opposed to everyone else who simply do it unconsciously. I think you bring up a good point in that it's possible that Jad was exploring those other Narratives specifically so that the crew of the Daban Urnud would unconsciously pick up on those other possibilities and thus be motivated to negotiate in at least one Narrative. It's never explicitly said in the book but it seems to follow from the implications of hat we are told. The real dangling plot point for me is Fraa Lodoghir seeming to know about Jad's ability/know that Jad was using it despite him being on Arbre at the time and (from what I understand) he should have been tied to a single Narrative since he wasn't out of contact like the boarding party, and as such he should have been subject to any changes made - or more precisely, whatever eventual state the Narrative settled on would have 'always' been that way for him.
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Mar 15, 2014 22:03
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WarLocke posted:This is outright stated earlier in the book as the reason for/nature of consciousness. The only difference is that Fraa Jad (and presumably other Thousanders) have developed a praxis/method for consciously accessing/manipulating different Narratives as opposed to everyone else who simply do it unconsciously. Also, Jad's death being necessary, per Lodoghir, makes sense if someone had to detonate the EKs, and there was no way for the EKs to detonate without Jad's presense, because only he could know the password. That means that, again according to Lodoghir, the EKs going off is a necessary condition of the ending, which at least means that Jad was triyng to simultaneously set off the EKs and not set off the EKs. So essentially, what happened is what we saw. The EKs went off and didn't go off, simultaneously. This doesn't make sense, so instead, an explanation that resulted in a continuing Narrative happened/was created/exists. Since the Rhetors were said to be able to change the past, this makes sense as something they "did." I'm not set on any of these conclusions, more just musing, but I think I'm on an okay track.
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Mar 15, 2014 22:20
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The thing that really gets me about Anathem is that if you take the Narrative structure as presented, then that means that everything we 'see' happen actually happens in SOME Narrative, somewhere. There is a Narrative out there where Jad picked the right random code, some Urnudans shotgunned him and Erasmas, and the EKs went off and sterilized the Daban Urnud. There's a Narrative where the Urnudans used their World Killer bomb. The only reason the Narrative we follow to the end of the book ends on a good note is because several other Narratives were 'sacrificed' in order to make it happen.
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Mar 15, 2014 22:43
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WarLocke posted:
He doesn't have to do this. He just has to move himself and his companions into a narrative where the others are willing to negotiate. It's exactly like moving into the narrative where the combination that he entered was the correct one.
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Mar 15, 2014 22:45
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Snak posted:He doesn't have to do this. He just has to move himself and his companions into a narrative where the others are willing to negotiate. It's exactly like moving into the narrative where the combination that he entered was the correct one. Except Jad explicitly tells Erasmas that this isn't possible. The Jad that punched in the combination was a different Jad than the one who talked to the Urnudan dude - same person, different Narratives, each accessing the mind of other Jads in other Narratives. The Erasmas in the Narrative where Jad got the code right died from the EK in his gut going off. The Erasmas witnessing Jad's talk with the Urnudan guy was a different Erasmas, who had access to the memories of the dead Erasmas from the other Narrative, and the Erasmas from the end of the book is yet another Erasmas with access to the memories of both of the first two. VVV: OK yeah, we're basically saying the same thing. 
WarLocke fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Mar 15, 2014 |
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Mar 15, 2014 22:49
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WarLocke posted:Except Jad explicitly tells Erasmas that this isn't possible. The Jad that punched in the combination was a different Jad than the one who talked to the Urnudan dude - same person, different Narratives, each accessing the mind of other Jads in other Narratives. Well, I'd have to read it again to be sure, but are confusing each other with our terms here when I say "move into a different narrative" I don't mean physically, but that by sharing information he is essentially crossing is consciousness into another narrative. Being "different" but having the same memories is not that different. It's heavily implied that nature of the mind spanning multiple realities will cause it to naturally try to sort out memories that fit the appropriate narrative. This is why all of their memories become fuzzy.
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Mar 15, 2014 23:02
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Snak posted:It's heavily implied that nature of the mind spanning multiple realities will cause it to naturally try to sort out memories that fit the appropriate narrative. This is why all of their memories become fuzzy.
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Mar 16, 2014 03:10
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Jad even makes an offhand comment about being less able to influence/perceive the other narratives because there are less Fraa Jad's. So it seems his abilities are limited to world tracks where he's still alive and that's the other reason to bring Erasmus along. He needs a witness for those world track's he's died in.
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Mar 16, 2014 03:33
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redshirt posted:All the members of Cell 317 refer to strange/fuzzy dreams/memories in one way or another. Even Fraa Osa, FAE of the Valers. Showing that these narrative shifts are happening to all of them, and not just Jad/Earasmas. Yes I think it's completely clear that he is able to shift more than just himself, although the mechanism for this is completely up in the air.
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Mar 16, 2014 05:49
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At one point, it's mentioned that the Thousanders only accept babies with the umbilical cord attached, because any later than that and they are too influenced by the world to join the math. The umbilical cord contains stem cells.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:06
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I almost can't imagine any passage from Anathem without visualizing how Escher would depict that particular scene. With the possible exception of the long-ish plot derail where Erasmus is crossing the polar region, and probably a few other parts really. I would just love to dedicate a couple years to doing Escher-esque illustrations for every single passage from this book. Not that I think the book is perfect, but it does seem like Neal must have been always trying to look through an Escher lens when he was writing it. Of course the one scene where they're at the ancient oasis, the place of the pattern (sorry, forgot what it's called) and sitting around the kitchen bullshitting, and even the bread they're eating has been woven into a pattern seemed like overkill at the time, but hey. But it was clearly a painstakingly detailed Escher still life in the making. I can imagine the space ship, especially, and a multitude of scenes there, as a detailed Escher-esque design in so many ways. The very essence of its being is sort of a multidimensional Möbius strip, and so many of the scenes from it are just begging to be reduced to graphics. And the climactic moment of the greater story, the funeral procession and meeting aboard the ship, where they are carrying the bodies across the water in a boat, is so damned much like some of Escher's interlocking tile type prints, shoot, it just tickles the hell out of me. I cannot not see it as an Escher print. It makes me want to ask to see the illustrations and sketches, because I simply feel like there must be some. And if not, I wish I could be the one to make them. But, like most good ideas I have, the usual rule probably applies: if I've thought of it, somebody has not only been there already but dedicated a web site to it. (Accompanied by a forum replete with awful posters dedicated to fiercely defending their personal dominion over some obscure ideational 'turf' -- and Star Trek) I guess all I'm saying is that since somebody long ago said Anathem is like a novelization of "Godel, Escher, Bach," I'm in agreement that he's got the Escher part down. SnakePlissken fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 14:50
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Snak posted:Yes I think it's completely clear that he is able to shift more than just himself, although the mechanism for this is completely up in the air. The Thousanders can influence anything by thinking, since thinking has a physical effect on the universe. Everything else is an extrapolation of that, combined with the "consciousness spans multiple universes" thing.
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Mar 16, 2014 23:09
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Meiteron posted:Speaking of pages, a couple years ago I got a chance to head to Seattle and visit the science and fiction museum that's in the Seattle Centre there when the original manuscript was still on display. Stephenson wrote the entire thing out on paper first, in longhand, before actually digitizing it for printing. This is from days ago but, Not only did he hand write the whole manuscript, he also used three different fountain pens and inks for each of the main characters.
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Mar 17, 2014 20:36
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Dr. Benway posted:This is from days ago but, Not only did he hand write the whole manuscript, he also used three different fountain pens and inks for each of the main characters. I'm sure his editor and publisher were THRILLED with a stunt like that.
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Mar 17, 2014 23:17
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Now I need to read Anathem just so I can come back and dig into those walls of spoiler text Also I'm just about to finish REAMDE for the second time and I love it. It's ridiculous and fun, like some sort of alternate version of the big unwieldy techno-thriller. I just really like the way it goes from being about an MMO and a computer virus to being about what it's about. I do much prefer the stuff about monetising MMOs and hacking and stuff, instead of the shoot out stuff. Bullbar fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 10:23
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Dr. Benway posted:This is from days ago but, Not only did he hand write the whole manuscript, he also used three different fountain pens and inks for each of the main characters. Beautiful. I think there is a great deal of value in appreciating writing as an art - not simply as literature. For those who can and are interested, a tour of the British Library is a must. To see illuminated manuscripts from the 1300's, the Magna Carta, a roll of Kerouac's "On the Road", Beatles lyrics on napkins, etc. It's amazing.
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Mar 20, 2014 14:52
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CNN Sports Ticker posted:Now I need to read Anathem just so I can come back and dig into those walls of spoiler text
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Mar 20, 2014 16:14
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Oh yeah there are definitely some things about it that have me rolling my eyes, but I just accept it as the conceptual sci-fi bit of the story. A lot of the T'rain stuff is handwavey 'this is how *I* would make an MMO' that doesn't really care for real world stuff.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:59
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CNN Sports Ticker posted:Also I'm just about to finish REAMDE for the second time and I love it. It's ridiculous and fun, like some sort of alternate version of the big unwieldy techno-thriller. I just really like the way it goes from being about an MMO and a computer virus to being about what it's about. I do much prefer the stuff about monetising MMOs and hacking and stuff, instead of the shoot out stuff. I'm working through Reamde for the first time right now, and I can echo that sentiment. It's like a Tom Clancy novel filtered through Something Awful. It's very early in, but watching the JRR Tolkien/Robert Jordan mash-up tear into the Piers Anthony/Terry Brooks guy over the placement of apostrophes by asking the kid with Asperger's if you could just stick volcanoes anywhere you pleased warmed a part of my heart in a way that's difficult to put into words. It so self aware in a way that most techno-thrillers aren't. The stakes are somehow both terribly important and completely ridiculous, especially if you've followed any of the various Goon Squad antics. Or, if you buy into Glenn Beck's crazy theory that Goonfleet is a CIA front, maybe not so ridiculous... 
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Mar 20, 2014 23:04
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Spoilers Below posted:I'm working through Reamde for the first time right now, and I can echo that sentiment. It's like a Tom Clancy novel filtered through Something Awful. It's very early in, but watching the JRR Tolkien/Robert Jordan mash-up tear into the Piers Anthony/Terry Brooks guy over the placement of apostrophes by asking the kid with Asperger's if you could just stick volcanoes anywhere you pleased warmed a part of my heart in a way that's difficult to put into words. What game is that?
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Mar 21, 2014 04:36
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Eve, the world's greatest excel simulator.
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Mar 21, 2014 05:23
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