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SonicRulez posted:I feel like Jane is Thor, but Beta Ray Bill is not Thor. That's probably bullshit, but I'm sticking to it. There are more Captains Marvel than Carol and Mar-Vell? Monica Rambeau was Captain Marvel once. Mar-Vell's son and daughter both used the name at times.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:34
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Wasn’t it Marvel policy for a little while to have back-up versions of popular characters? I can think of War Machine, Thunderstrike, Nomad, Spider-Girl, Force Works, Fantastic Five, US Agent, and arguably Venom as a solo character all in a roughly overlapping period.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:49
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I AM GRANDO posted:Wasn’t it Marvel policy for a little while to have back-up versions of popular characters? I can think of War Machine, Thunderstrike, Nomad, Spider-Girl, Force Works, Fantastic Five, and arguably Venom as a solo character all in a roughly overlapping period. Fantastic FORCE blech. But yeah there were pretty much legacy/follow ups for half the MU at some point.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:50
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Oh poo poo, how could I have gotten the title wrong like that?
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Jan 26, 2022 17:53
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Spider-Girl and Fantastic Five were part of MC2, which was basically the Ultimate Universe by way of the DC 5G concept.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:55
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I AM GRANDO posted:Oh poo poo, how could I have gotten the title wrong like that? Turn in your Merry Marvel Marching Society card.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:55
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SonicRulez posted:I feel like Jane is Thor, but Beta Ray Bill is not Thor. Yes, this means Volstagg is also a Thor, proving She-Hulk's client correct.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:58
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Oh, and that 90s Ghost Rider who wasn’t Johnny Blaze.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:59
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I AM GRANDO posted:Oh, and that 90s Ghost Rider who wasn’t Johnny Blaze. 1890s? 
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Jan 26, 2022 18:01
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Endless Mike posted:Mjolnir works for him, he is Thor. volstagg is in fact the War Thor 
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Jan 26, 2022 18:02
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There are a couple of Novas (Rich Rider and Sam Alexander), although as with Green Lantern, there's an entire Nova Corps running around space.
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Jan 26, 2022 18:04
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Rhyno posted:1890s? I assume he means Danny, but there’s also 2 or 3 other active Ghost Riders these days
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Jan 26, 2022 18:05
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Opopanax posted:I assume he means Danny, but there’s also 2 or 3 other active Ghost Riders these days i jus' trynin to be funneh Selachian posted:There are a couple of Novas (Rich Rider and Sam Alexander), although as with Green Lantern, there's an entire Nova Corps running around space. Is the Nova Corps back? And I just remembered that there's a second Marvel Boy.
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Jan 26, 2022 18:09
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Rhyno posted:Is the Nova Corps back? And I just remembered that there's a second Marvel Boy. Not super up on cosmic Marvel, but I'm reading the 2020 Guardians run and there's just Richard Rider. May have changed since then.
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Jan 26, 2022 18:11
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Opopanax posted:I assume he means Danny, but there’s also 2 or 3 other active Ghost Riders these days I entirely forgot about Danny and assumed he meant Vengeance, who is kind of the Thunderstrike to Ghost Riders Thor.
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Jan 26, 2022 18:19
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Rhyno posted:Is the Nova Corps back? And I just remembered that there's a second Marvel Boy. Gerry Duggan brought back the Nova Corps in his run on Guardians of the Galaxy in 2017, and then Donny Cates promptly killed them off again in 2019 in his GOTG (I know what you're thinking and it actually wasn't Knull!) So yeah Richard Rider and Sam Alexander are once again the only Novas.
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Jan 26, 2022 18:26
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Vengeance is what happens when someone comes along and says "a motorcyclist with a flaming skull head and a motorcycle with flaming wheels who uses a flaming chain as a weapon isn't BADASS enough!"
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Jan 26, 2022 18:40
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Endless Mike posted:Vengeance is what happens when someone comes along and says "a motorcyclist with a flaming skull head and a motorcycle with flaming wheels who uses a flaming chain as a weapon isn't BADASS enough!" Badilino was a cop, too. Bleh.
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Jan 26, 2022 18:45
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Endless Mike posted:Vengeance is what happens when someone comes along and says "a motorcyclist with a flaming skull head and a motorcycle with flaming wheels who uses a flaming chain as a weapon isn't BADASS enough!" Did Vengeance have pouches? I feel his badassness depended on how many pouches he had.
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Jan 26, 2022 19:15
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I AM GRANDO posted:Wasn’t it Marvel policy for a little while to have back-up versions of popular characters? I can think of War Machine, Thunderstrike, Nomad, Spider-Girl, Force Works, Fantastic Five, US Agent, and arguably Venom as a solo character all in a roughly overlapping period. Eric Masterson debuted in 1988 and became Thor in 1989, before the original Thor Odinson came back and he became Thunderstrike in 1993. I don't know if this was supposed to show how Masterson was inferior to the 'real' Thor in the same way that some of these other stories (the blockbuster Death of Superman/Knightfall stories over at DC for instance) were, more like DC's later introduction of the new and improved Green Lantern, Green Arrow, etc. Maybe it was partially inspired by Wally West stepping into the Flash mantle a few years earlier? War Machine is a weird case because James Rhodes became Iron Man way back in 1983, went back to being a civilian who occasionally filled in as Iron Man for like a decade, then became War Machine in 1993. The "War Machine" armor was originally just another suit Tony Stark wore when it first appeared a year earlier. A lot of the other ones are edge cases, versions of Spider-Woman have floated in and out since the 1970s, and "Spider-Girl" specifically happened later than all of the other examples, first appearing at the very end of 1997. I'm not entirely sure where Nomad fits into any of this besides getting a "1990s" gritty reworking, and Venom seems more like the trend of popular villains (Sabretooth, Deadpool, Magneto) becoming antiheroes that can be traced back through Punisher, Magneto, arguably all the way back to Hawkeye/Black Widow/Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch in the early 1960s. Force Works and Fantastic Force were both short-lived but part of that "NOT YOUR DAD'S SUPERHEROES FOR THE 1990S" like X-Force, Extreme Justice, Secret Defenders, etc. Saying any of this was a "policy" seems stretching things, though in the mid 1990s there was definitely an attempt to milk any popular character for all they are worth, which sometimes manifested in the way you're describing, but just as often took other forms; there was technically a "more extreme Ghost Rider" character in the form of Vengeance, but he was a relatively minor part of the overall "Ghost Rider is popular so let's make a whole mini-line of Ghost Rider, Morbius, Johnny Blaze, the Darkhold, an edgier Doctor Strange, etc." Punisher just got three monthly series plus copious one-shots/mini-series, which did briefly feature a bunch of copycat Punishers but they were all killed in fairly short order. They spun out Venom from Spider-Man but also attempted to spin out the Prowler, Black Cat, Annex, Night Watch, Solo, and other non-"alternate Spideys" from his book. Even the New Warriors got a couple of spin-off solo series.
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Jan 26, 2022 19:35
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TwoPair posted:Gerry Duggan brought back the Nova Corps in his run on Guardians of the Galaxy in 2017, and then Donny Cates promptly killed them off again in 2019 in his GOTG (I know what you're thinking and it actually wasn't Knull!). Ridiculous.
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Jan 26, 2022 19:38
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Even Dr. Fate got a gritty update in the 90's with Fate who had an ankh face tattoo and sharp knife.
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Jan 26, 2022 21:03
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Madkal posted:Did Vengeance have pouches? I feel his badassness depended on how many pouches he had. He did not but who needs nerdy-rear end pouches when you have a FLAMING SPIKED SKULL HEAD and FULLY SICK SHOULDER SPIKES and WICKED BONE CHAIN BRACELETS and a BONE BELT WITH YOUR FACE AS THE BUCKLE and a RIBCAGE JACKET and FOUR COUNT 'EM FOUR WOLVERINE CLAWS 
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Jan 26, 2022 21:08
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Madkal posted:Even Dr. Fate got a gritty update in the 90's with Fate who had an ankh face tattoo and sharp knife. You mean how the cutting edge of magik JUST GOT SHARPER as was the blurb on his #1?
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Jan 26, 2022 21:18
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Lobok posted:Ridiculous. You're right. Knull should've been the one who did it. 
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Jan 26, 2022 21:28
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Dawgstar posted:You mean how the cutting edge of magik JUST GOT SHARPER as was the blurb on his #1? And it wasn't edgy enough so they rebooted it a year later and made him even EDGIER.
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Jan 26, 2022 21:32
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Those post-Zero Hour series launches were so terrible (with the exception of Starman). Extreme Justice! Fate! Primal Force! Xenobrood! 
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Jan 26, 2022 21:38
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FMguru posted:Those post-Zero Hour series launches were so terrible (with the exception of Starman). Was Xenobrood a Bloodlines offshoot?
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Jan 26, 2022 22:18
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Madkal posted:Was Xenobrood a Bloodlines offshoot? No, unrelated. And somehow worse.
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Jan 26, 2022 22:22
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Rhyno posted:No, unrelated. And somehow worse. It just sounds like Xeno sounds like Xenomorphs and broods were a ripoff of Xenomorphs and Bloodlines had weird aliens with mouths within mouths and it should all be connected.
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Jan 26, 2022 22:24
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The brood were alien superhumans that grew out of little crystals. No spinal fluid removal was required for them to get powers.
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Jan 26, 2022 22:25
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Madkal posted:Even Dr. Fate got a gritty update in the 90's with Fate who had an ankh face tattoo and sharp knife. And Dr Strange was redesigned to look like some kind of goth, or Doc Hammer.
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Jan 26, 2022 23:15
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Madkal posted:Even Dr. Fate got a gritty update in the 90's with Fate who had an ankh face tattoo and sharp knife. And the only thing they did with him after it crashed and burned was have the character turn up in one of the DC Animated Movies of the Animated Movieverse they had from 2013 to 2020...as a male stripper. ---- Okay, I have a question about the big "Stuff Of X" storyline that's been running the last few years. How exactly did it start? The main trigger was a retcon that Moira MacTaggert was a mutant all along and she reincarnated as her power, and she'd already lived numerous lives where she kept trying various processes to protect or aid mutants, meeting with, siding with, and doing various stuff in what would assume to be 'other timelines' or 'Earth-Whatevers'. The current Marvel timeline, or the one after it was reformed after Secret Wars (2015), is her 10th life, and she...went to Charles and Magneto early and showed them all her experiences? And they just never mentioned all this insane future knowledge? There was something that Charles had wiped his own memory more than one to forget what she told him, and that learning it was part of the reason Onslaught came into existence, but after dying during the Phoenix Five storyline and finally coming back... -checks- After some nonsense with his old enemy Shadow King, taking Fantomex's body, he's apparently decided 'Screw peaceful co-existence, gonna form a position of strength, using Moira's knowledge, which I apparently remember again." And Magneto...always knew, but never mentioned it? He repressed it? He got his mind wiped too? In any case when Professor X came back he decided to finally act on all of the knowledge of Moira's lives in THIS timeline and life and hence we now have Krakoa as a mutant sovereign nation with pods that bring any killed mutant back to life, no matter how they died or how long ago, and as one of my friends who hates the direction said, A Critic posted:never mind that it's turned every single X-Man into a mutant supremacist racist instead of being a superhero So...this is how it worked? It didn't replace the events we know with new ones, like Age of Apocolypse did? And any validity to that complaint?
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Jan 27, 2022 08:45
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Cornwind Evil posted:Okay, I have a question about the big "Stuff Of X" storyline that's been running the last few years. How exactly did it start? I think Xavier and Magneto are implied to have known about Moira since the publication gap between the 60s X-Men and Giant Size X-Men in 75; this is supposedly the reason that Magneto's character takes a turn under Claremont. They've both always known about Moira, but they're both stubborn men, and they believed that they could build a world for mutants through friendship or conquest, respectively. They both failed enough, presumably, that it drove them close enough to compromise. Something that Hickman has stressed in interviews is that while Moira is over 1000 years old, she's only lived each life once, and she's taken wildly different paths in each of them. So this life is the first time that she's roped in both Xavier and Magneto from the beginning, which means she doesn't have anything advance info into the future of this life. Similar things may have happened before, but Proteus, for example, was the product of a relationship she's never had before, so she couldn't have known for sure what would happen with Proteus. Additionally, Krakoa is a collaborative process between Moira, Xavier, Magneto, and others. I think Moira had the idea for a mutant nation and that it be built on Krakoa, but things like foreign policy and resurrections aren't part of her master plan, and she's actively opposed to bits of it, like involving Mr. Sinister (and who can blame her?). Cornwind Evil posted:It didn't replace the events we know with new ones, like Age of Apocolypse did? Officially they're prior versions of 616, not their own multiverses, but everybody involved has been pretty cognizant that in 10 or 20 years somebody will pick that scab and they'll just become regular alternate worlds. Re: the pod people thing, the current X-line hasn't shied away from showing the growing pains of Krakoa. I'd disagree pretty heavily with most characters as mutant supremacists, with the exception of characters who were already mutant supremacists like Magneto and Apocalypse. Krakoa is a state consisting of people who have been genocided multiple times and that has already been invaded on like a half dozen occasions. Most characters have the same opinion of humans as they did before, they're just not an extremely tiny minority vulnerable to extermination at the moment.
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Jan 27, 2022 11:48
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It's real funny holding up Hickman as the paragon of writing while complaining about characters "not sounding like themselves." Even as someone who tends to love his work, writing existing characters to not sound like themselves is probably the biggest complaint I have about him. (And I disagree with the sentiment in a broader sense. Cyclops sounds like Cyclops, Magneto sounds like Magneto, Xavier sounds like post-Brubaker Xavier, Sinister sounds like post-Gillen Sinister, etc.) It's also really lovely to describe his collaborators as "subliterate" especially when Hickman's own words have indicated that while he had an ending and multiple phases to his big X-Men plan, they were all intended to be able to be extended as long as desired. It turns out "as long as desired" was longer than he wanted, but everyone else was interested. It's entirely possible they're still continue along with his original plan, just along a longer timeline. Your friend is certainly welcome to dislike it, of course, but they're trying to make objective statements while insulting the creators, and it just comes off as bad criticism.
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Jan 27, 2022 14:34
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Ah yes, noted subliterate Al Ewing.
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Jan 27, 2022 14:43
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It's a small part of the complaint but "milling around on Krakoa" really isn't how I'd describe most of the books.
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Jan 27, 2022 14:49
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Cornwind Evil posted:as one of my friends who hates the direction said, I was just discussing the Krakoa era with one of my coworkers and he said the scene that sold him on the series was Magneto telling humanity "we have all these wonders, gates to every corner of earth, drugs that cure your diseases, and you'll have access to them as long as you leave Krakoa alone, but you'll pay for them out the rear end because that's what you taught us" And the reason he likes it so much is because, aside from giving mutant kind a culture, it gives the comics a political edge that he hasn't seen explored before. And when you think about it that way, if you think about a subgroup suddenly rallying around a nation state with its own culture and politics, yeah I'd reckon the 'usual' behaviors of characters might be affected. I feel like so much effort is spent trying to reconcile things in comics that sometimes you just have to enjoy a story and not worry so much about how Superman developed Ultra-Kryptonian Heat-Claws when he was supposed to be in Limbo (see SuperBrat #623) and why the GL Corps didn't use the Xtra-Band Corps to review e him or whatever the gently caress.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:03
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i can practically guess what kinda website that "critic" is posting on
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Jan 27, 2022 16:45
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I think the x-office is one of the strongest collections of writers Marvel has seen in years and afaik Hickman is still part of their planning slack, so to frame it as "Hickman vs. subliterates" feels really... weird. Who specifically does your friend think is subliterate? Kieron Gillen? Victor LaValle? Vita Ayala? What a weird critique. I think the weakest of the Krakoan era writers pound for pound were probably Ed Brisson and Ben Percy and they're both perfectly adequate, better-than-average superhero comic scripters.
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Jan 27, 2022 18:00
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