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Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


Waterhaul posted:

Originally Jean was supposed to survive the Dark Phoenix and have a normal life with Scott but editorial thought her charter was gone beyond saving for blowing up a planet as Phoenix so the story was changed to her dying.

Pretty close. Here's Jim Shooter's recollection.

Jim Shooter posted:

When I read the X-Men make-ready that included the scene in which Phoenix destroyed a Shi'ar starship, killing hundreds, and an inhabited planet, killing billions, curious, I asked Jim Salicrup to show me whatever else was done on the storyline. Because Claremont and Byrne were very efficient, on time and professional, the next several issues were well along. The climactic issue was still in the plot stage, I think. I think Byrne had not yet begun to pencil it. At any rate, I discovered that Chris (and John) had backed down from the idea of Phoenix becoming the X-Men's Doctor Doom. The plot indicated that Phoenix would somehow be mind-wiped and let go. Back to living at the Mansion, hanging around with Storm and company, sitting at the same table for lunch, etc.



That, to me, would be like taking the German army away from from Hitler and letting him go back to governing Germany.



Did I have a "moral" issue with that? Yes. More than that, it was a character issue. Would Storm sit comfortably at a dinner table with someone who had killed billions as if nothing had ever happened? Nah.



I don't know whether most people grok this idea, but the Editor in Chief is charged with governing, managing and protecting all of the characters. It was my job to make sure the characters were in character, and I was the final word on what "in character" was. Not Chris, not John, not any freelancer. The company relied upon me to manage and protect the company's intellectual properties.



Anyway....



I told Chris that the ending proposed in his plot didn't work. It wasn't workable with the characters, and in fact was a totally lame cop-out, storywise. I demanded a different ending. Chris--enraged--asked me just what that might be. I suggested that Phoenix be sent to some super-security interstellar prison as punishment for her crimes. Chris said that the X-Men would never stop trying to rescue (?!) her and that the story would become a loop. I said that then he should come up with an ending.

I wasn't privy to Chris and John's conversations that night, but whatever.



The next morning, Chris stormed into my office and said that there was only one answer--they'd have to kill Phoenix. I said fine.



I don't think he expected me to say that, since killing characters just wasn't done in those days. Chris waffled a bit, but then I became insistent! She's dying. That's it.



Chris left my office, obviously found a phone somewhere and, a few minutes later, I got a call from John that started with him asking me if I was insane.



I insisted on the "solution." It was done--brilliantly, if reluctantly--by Chris and John. And that's was the issue that propelled the X-Men to the top for, what, two decades?



That's the story. Check it with Salicrup. Actually, Chris would probably corroborate it, too, though he'd make it seem that he was smarter and that I was a doofus. I'm okay with that. Chris doesn't get nearly enough credit for what he accomplished. I'm proud to be the doofus who helped to enable it.

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SirDan3k
Jan 6, 2001

Trust me, you are taking this a lot more seriously then I am.


Waterhaul posted:

There was stuff in the rules thread but it was got rid of because I think BSS has got to the point where everyone is alright for spoilers. Rule of thumb is that if the book is out you don't need to spoil it but commons sense and being considerate of other posters is always the main thing.

For example with the Nightcrawler bit I didn't spoil it because the character has already returned from the dead so them dying isn't really a big deal.

What? No, he's totally not going to come back form the dead at the end of the arc and they have no way heavily implied that Azazel could only invade heaven because Kurt was there.

SirDan3k fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Feb 28, 2014

Waterhaul
Nov 5, 2005


it was a nice post,
you shouldn't have signed it.





Alien Rope Burn posted:

Pretty close. Here's Jim Shooter's recollection.

Ah yeah I got a couple of things mixed up. It was Madelyne that was going to go off and live a normal life with Scott.

prefect
Sep 11, 2001

No one, Woodhouse.
No one.






Dead Man’s Band

Alien Rope Burn posted:

Pretty close. Here's Jim Shooter's recollection.

Jim Shooter posted:

When I read the X-Men make-ready that included the scene in which Phoenix destroyed a Shi'ar starship...

What's a "make-ready"? Is that like a proof of a book that's about to go to the printers?

CapnAndy
Feb 27, 2004

Why do I not have a cape? How do I not have a cape?


Waterhaul posted:

Ah yeah I got a couple of things mixed up. It was Madelyne that was going to go off and live a normal life with Scott.
No, you had it right. The mind-wipe was going to take away all her powers, and Scott and Jean would go off into the sunset.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


CapnAndy posted:

No, you had it right. The mind-wipe was going to take away all her powers, and Scott and Jean would go off into the sunset.

This is correct; the point I was correcting was that it wasn't originally Shooter's idea, but that Claremont presented the idea of killing Phoenix to Shooter (probably not seriously, but he did) and Shooter seized on that as the solution.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



So is that the reason Shooter and Byrne had mad beef? Sounds like he had beef with Claremont too.

I tell you reading the wikipedia pages on a lot of the creators, it seems like people in the business don't really like each other very much.

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?


zoux posted:

So is that the reason Shooter and Byrne had mad beef? Sounds like he had beef with Claremont too.

I tell you reading the wikipedia pages on a lot of the creators, it seems like people in the business don't really like each other very much.

Byrne is a crazy person so it's not shocking that he has beef with everyone. Shooter has just been doing comics for too long. He started when he was 14.

prefect
Sep 11, 2001

No one, Woodhouse.
No one.






Dead Man’s Band

zoux posted:

So is that the reason Shooter and Byrne had mad beef? Sounds like he had beef with Claremont too.

I tell you reading the wikipedia pages on a lot of the creators, it seems like people in the business don't really like each other very much.

Jim Shooter was (according to some) kind of a tyrant during his time as Editor in Chief; he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


Marvel was hugely disorganized prior to Shooter, to say the least, and there was a whole pecking order he upended. In addition, he held a lot of creators to tighter standards (some say in unfair or arbitrary ways) like the above Phoenix anecdote. He completely reorganized editorial, which left some editors unhappy with their positions. He revised the work-for-hire agreements to clarify that Marvel got all the rights to characters made for their comics, which pissed off a lot of creators, but conversely worked to make sure they got better pay and benefits. DC was in the middle of going through bankruptcy at the time, which also meant a lot of creators didn't have another ship to jump to when Shooter came on. He made the company a lot more professional but also exerted a lot more power over creators as a result. He got a reputation for being arrogant and controlling, but at the same time the structure he built for Marvel is largely identical to the one we have today. I think he did an amazing job given the circumstances even with his blunders in mind, but opinions vary.

You can read a lot more here and here.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



How do people in the industry feel about Axel Alonso?

It's just odd to me how vocal people can be about their colleagues. In other creative media, usually people try to put a good face on relationships and what not, but in the comic book industry, it seems like people will talk out of school all the time.

irlZaphod
Mar 26, 2004

Kiss the Joycon to Kiss Zelda



zoux posted:

So is that the reason Shooter and Byrne had mad beef? Sounds like he had beef with Claremont too.
Claremont had a few run-ins with him, there was the original Phoenix stuff, then later the whole deal with the Kitty/Colossus relationship (Shooter wrote Secret Wars, which had the catalyst for their break-up), then not long after that Shooter decided to bring Jean back to launch X-Factor with the original X-Men, which made Claremont completely furious.

zoux posted:

How do people in the industry feel about Axel Alonso?

It's just odd to me how vocal people can be about their colleagues. In other creative media, usually people try to put a good face on relationships and what not, but in the comic book industry, it seems like people will talk out of school all the time.
I've never seen a bad word said about Alonso.

A lot of this stuff only came out years after it happened. You won't find many freelancers badmouthing editors or whatever. There are rare occasions, like Waid with Didio, or Rucka with both DC and Marvel Editorial (although he's back freelancing for Marvel now).

irlZaphod fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Feb 28, 2014

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


zoux posted:

So is that the reason Shooter and Byrne had mad beef? Sounds like he had beef with Claremont too.

Later on, Byrne wrote an issue of Fantastic Four where Reed Richards saves Galactus's life. When Claremont heard about it he was a bit put out because Galactus had caused far more destruction than Phoenix did, and included a scene in an issue of Uncanny where Lilandra hears about this and zaps into the Baxter Building to warn Reed that he's in trouble. Byrne was upset because he thought it would make a mess of his immediate plans so he went to complain to Shooter, who told him to sort it out himself, so he ended up writing "The Trial of Reed Richards" story.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


irlZaphod posted:

I've never seen a bad word said about Alonso.

He's overseen some controversial runs (Rawhide Kid, One More Day), but hasn't been directly involved in dirt that I'm aware of.

irlZaphod
Mar 26, 2004

Kiss the Joycon to Kiss Zelda



Alien Rope Burn posted:

He's overseen some controversial runs (Rawhide Kid, One More Day), but hasn't been directly involved in dirt that I'm aware of.
I'm pretty sure Rawhide Kid was Bill Jemas' baby, and One More Day was Quesada.

HitTheTargets
Mar 3, 2006

I came here to laugh at you.


I assume you mean the confirmed bachelor *wink* Rawhide Kid. How controversial was that at the time? Because comparing it to something like Gillen's Young Avengers it's about as salacious as a single piece of dry, white toast.

CapnAndy
Feb 27, 2004

Why do I not have a cape? How do I not have a cape?


HitTheTargets posted:

I assume you mean the confirmed bachelor *wink* Rawhide Kid. How controversial was that at the time? Because comparing it to something like Gillen's Young Avengers it's about as salacious as a single piece of dry, white toast.
My memory may decieve me, and I didn't pay very close attention, but as I recall the reaction was "that's not funny" and then nobody bought it.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Jim Shooter posted:

Did I have a "moral" issue with that? Yes. More than that, it was a character issue. Would Storm sit comfortably at a dinner table with someone who had killed billions as if nothing had ever happened? Nah.



Actually, according to comics the answer is yes. And not just Storm, of course. No one seems to remember any of the atrocities the latest villain turned anti-hero has done once they get past their one storyline long outraged period.

prefect posted:

Jim Shooter was (according to some) kind of a tyrant during his time as Editor in Chief; he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

Absolutely and at the same time he really was the man who "made the trains run on time". He saved Marvel from complete collapse by ruling things with an iron fist (but not Iron Fist).

CapnAndy posted:

My memory may decieve me, and I didn't pay very close attention, but as I recall the reaction was "that's not funny" and then nobody bought it.

Yeah, the reaction was more "What the gently caress?" than outrage.

irlZaphod
Mar 26, 2004

Kiss the Joycon to Kiss Zelda



I think the reaction was kind of "Hmmmm this is a slightly offensive gay stereotype". And then no-one bought it.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


irlZaphod posted:

I'm pretty sure Rawhide Kid was Bill Jemas' baby, and One More Day was Quesada.

All I'm saying is that he was editorial on those books. I'm not saying they're necessarily his fault or anything, but he was involved with them.

The Question IRL
Jun 8, 2013

Only two contestants left! Here is Doom's chance for revenge...


CapnAndy posted:

My memory may decieve me, and I didn't pay very close attention, but as I recall the reaction was "that's not funny" and then nobody bought it.

The odd thing is, from my memory of reading the story it's actually not that bad. Okay the humour is pretty awful once you get past the main "joke" (he's gay but nobody realizes it. Geddit?) but the plot itself is fine if a tad cliche.

The actual plot is one of those classic western tropes about a son who doesn't respect his pacifist father, latches onto cool outlaw and how the Kid goes out of his way to make the pacifist dad cool again in the eyes of his son.
Nothing revolutionary, but kind of sweet in it's own way. It's just the main joke held the whole thing back. But it wasn't the sort of comic blackhole that people paint it as.

Ghostpilot
Jun 21, 2007

"As a rule, I never touch anything more sophisticated and delicate than myself."

Being gay myself I kinda rolled my eyes at the Rawhide Kid thing. It was so over-the-top and campy that it'd fit right in with Rupaul's Drag Race. Maybe if I liked the character more it'd be different, but honestly, who knew of him outside of Handbook of the Marvel Universe collectors?

The one that actually made me angry was what they did with Northstar coming out, even as the closeted teenager I was at the time. The mere thought of it now still makes me angry. I could honestly go on a rant about that and I wasn't even much of a Northstar fan: he'd always been a boring ancillary character (which is exactly why he had been chosen for that).

I did like what they did with Wiccan and Hulkling, though. I'd been out of comics for awhile by the time I'd heard about that, but their relationship was a great thing to see.

CapnAndy
Feb 27, 2004

Why do I not have a cape? How do I not have a cape?


Ghostpilot posted:

The one that actually made me angry was what they did with Northstar coming out, even as the closeted teenager I was at the time. The mere thought of it now still makes me angry. I could honestly go on a rant about that and I wasn't even much of a Northstar fan: he'd always been a boring ancillary character (which is exactly why he had been chosen for that).
Here, I'll handle it for you in nine words: They made him a literal fairy. What the gently caress.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



CapnAndy posted:

Here, I'll handle it for you in nine words: They made him a literal fairy. What the gently caress.

I think he was talking about the second time where they sent out press releases and turned it into an event.

Unbelievably Fat Man
Jun 1, 2000

Innocent people. I could never hurt innocent people.




Northstar was explicitly created to be gay but this was like 1982, so homosexuality was a much more taboo issue than today. Jim Shooter pitched a fit.

And that is why Northstar was a 100% hetero fairy for a while.

rkajdi
Sep 11, 2001

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN


bobkatt013 posted:

Byrne is a crazy person so it's not shocking that he has beef with everyone. Shooter has just been doing comics for too long. He started when he was 14.

Also remember this is right around the time Claremont was cleaning up Shooter's Ms Marvel surprise sex story. I'd say there's a decent chance the two have a connection.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


Shooter at least apologized for it, for what it's worth, but admits his recollection is dodgy.

Jim Shooter posted:

I found my copy of Avengers #200. I read it. I agree with the consensus, its heinous. But, I dont remember much about how it got that way.

I am credited not only as Editor in Chief but as one of the co-plotters. However, I didnt see anything in the book that jogged my memory. No bits that I remember suggesting. No corrections of the sort I might have made to a plot passed before me.

But I did see many things I would have had changed if Id seen the plot. For instance, leaving aside the Ms. Marvel mess for the nonce: Iron Man thinks its okay for the weird, mysterious child to be given a laser torch and electronic equipment so he can build a machine. What?! As the massive machine is being assembled, no one bothers to question what it is or does. What?! Trouble ensues. No kidding, really? Good grief.

At that time, I didnt approve plots. Editors did. I can think of no reason that plot would have been passed before me. I dont remember participating in a plotting session. David Michelinie lived far away and seldom came to the office. He and Bob Layton plotted books together mostly over the phone, then Dave wrote them up and presented them to the editor. I dont know to what extent George Prez was involved. George often added bits and scenes, or made small changes to stories he was drawing, so possibly that is why he was given a plot credit. Usually writers didnt mind Georges modifications because they were generally pretty good.

Generally, the first time I saw a book was when the finished pages were given to me to sign off on before they were sent to Chemical Color, the separators. There were exceptions, of course, books with which I was more involved. I dont think this was one of them. But, possibly I made some suggestions that garnered me a co-plotter credit, and if so, what was I thinking?

And, I guess I signed off on this book.

I regret it.

But, in those days, in any case, the buck stopped at my desk. I take full responsibility. I screwed up. My judgment failed, or maybe I wasnt paying enough attention. Sorry. Avengers #200 is a travesty.

Maybe outstanding editor and outstanding human being Jim Salicrup, who has occasionally honored this blog with his memories can lend some information about Avengers #200. If he says I participated, believe him. I dont know.

A note: At the time, as I recall, David Michelinie and Chris Claremont were feuding, so that may have had something to do with this story. Ask Chris. Or Dave. Preferably both. Or Jim Salicrup.

Again, mea culpa. Sorry.

Shooter has defended his Hulk story where Bruce Banner gets threatened with surprise sex at the Y by a pair of homosexual men as not being intended as homophobic, but YMMV. Most of the assertions for Marvel's ban on LBGT during Shooter go back to an interview titled "One Thin Dime an' Two Thick Pennies" from a fanzine called Thwack! However, I can't find any traces of it on the internet - anybody know where one might find a copy of that interview or fanzine?

Hemingway To Go!
Nov 10, 2008

im stupider then dog shit, i dont give a shit, and i dont give a fuck, and i will never shut the fuck up, and i'll always Respect my enemys.
- ernest hemingway


In some point between like 2006 and 2008 or something, scans_daily was on livejournal and had not eaten itself and warren ellis posted there on occasion.

At one point, he was posting a surreal comic that had been written and published by a very odd mind. It was drawn like a normal 80's comic but the dialog was obviously written by an unwell drugged mind.

Some parts I remember: A character was waving his hands and telling about how he was molding something from "air jelly". Some characters drove a car off a cliff shouting "Do you see what I see???"

Does anyone know what the hell I'm talking about.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Alien Rope Burn posted:

Shooter has defended his Hulk story where Bruce Banner gets threatened with surprise sex at the Y by a pair of homosexual men as not being intended as homophobic, but YMMV. Most of the assertions for Marvel's ban on LBGT during Shooter go back to an interview titled "One Thin Dime an' Two Thick Pennies" from a fanzine called Thwack! However, I can't find any traces of it on the internet - anybody know where one might find a copy of that interview or fanzine?

I think Shooter's given mixed signals on gay characters. On the one hand, he's talked about how he always assumed Element Lad was gay when he was writing the Legion and one of his unrealised plans for a Valiant book was the main character realising that he's gay and subsequently coming out, both of which are fairly neutral examples.

But then there's stuff like the Hulk story.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


He claims the Hulk story was closely based on something that happened to a friend - I get the impression he means well, but is just clueless about the whole thing. The Comics Code Authority still banned homosexuality (phrased as "sexual abnormalities") until at least 1989, so his opinion on the matter at the time was likely moot.

Ed: I was correct now that I found it - the 1989 code does allow portrayals of homosexuality, but the 1971 version retained that ban up until then.

Alien Rope Burn fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Mar 2, 2014

rkajdi
Sep 11, 2001

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN


Metal Loaf posted:

I think Shooter's given mixed signals on gay characters. On the one hand, he's talked about how he always assumed Element Lad was gay when he was writing the Legion and one of his unrealised plans for a Valiant book was the main character realising that he's gay and subsequently coming out, both of which are fairly neutral examples.

But then there's stuff like the Hulk story.

He did have a gay character while at Valiant, that dude who palled around with X-O and lost his hand. And of course was 100% untrustworthy, betraying Aric and giving the X-O to some thugs. We couldn't have a positive gay character in the 50s 90s could we?

I think the point is that Shooter was never that great a human being, and deserves all the poo poo he got before and gets now.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



rkajdi posted:

He did have a gay character while at Valiant, that dude who palled around with X-O and lost his hand. And of course was 100% untrustworthy, betraying Aric and giving the X-O to some thugs. We couldn't have a positive gay character in the 50s 90s could we?

I think the point is that Shooter was never that great a human being, and deserves all the poo poo he got before and gets now.

If he was gay I'm 90% sure that didn't get dropped into his character until after Shooter had been forced out of Valiant (which was actually relatively early in the X-O run at issue 9). In the early issues he was presented as a generic rear end in a top hat businessman and I don't recall anything about his sexuality.

Which isn't actually a defense of Shooter, of course. Everything I've heard about the man is that he was a pretty lovely guy. I just think you can't really use that as an example.

rkajdi
Sep 11, 2001

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN


Random Stranger posted:

If he was gay I'm 90% sure that didn't get dropped into his character until after Shooter had been forced out of Valiant (which was actually relatively early in the X-O run at issue 9). In the early issues he was presented as a generic rear end in a top hat businessman and I don't recall anything about his sexuality.

Which isn't actually a defense of Shooter, of course. Everything I've heard about the man is that he was a pretty lovely guy. I just think you can't really use that as an example.

I could be misremembering, but I think it got brought up pre-Unity. That's the only X-O I read of the original series.

FAKE EDIT: Found it, issue #5 "Mmm, You're one good looking man Aric. If you were gay, you'd be perfect." Of course, this is also the issue that he starts betraying Aric. It's only a single line in there, but it fit with everything else that happened with him (i.e. being drawn a bit feminine, some of his vocab choices being a bit stereotypically gay) to create the standard gay betrayer.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



rkajdi posted:

I could be misremembering, but I think it got brought up pre-Unity. That's the only X-O I read of the original series.

FAKE EDIT: Found it, issue #5 "Mmm, You're one good looking man Aric. If you were gay, you'd be perfect." Of course, this is also the issue that he starts betraying Aric. It's only a single line in there, but it fit with everything else that happened with him (i.e. being drawn a bit feminine, some of his vocab choices being a bit stereotypically gay) to create the standard gay betrayer.

If it was that small of a moment then that would be why I completely forgot about it. Not that I want to use my brain for storing a lot of details about Valiant comics.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

Psst! It's me!
The Sinister with the mutant gene.


I had the pleasure and privilege of drinking and hanging out with Shooter for almost 6 hours during the first C2E2 retailer summit. He freely admits to being a huge dick and tell a wonderful stories about creators he's still friends with.
We all attended the Kick-rear end premiere that night and few things will ever be as amusing as watching Shooter laugh his rear end off so hard that he was kicking the seat in front of him. Kicking it so hard and often that group had to move to avoid Shooter's happiness.

rkajdi
Sep 11, 2001

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN


Random Stranger posted:

If it was that small of a moment then that would be why I completely forgot about it. Not that I want to use my brain for storing a lot of details about Valiant comics.

Read the issues recently (part of a supposedly complete old Valiant collection that I got from a buddy) while I was going over all the pre-Unity stuff. Honestly, it's the only thing that stuck in my craw about those issues, but I've got a bone to pick with the way LGBT people have been portrayed in comics up until very recently.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



I was reading the Invincible Iron Man Reconstructed run and it had Don Blake turning into Thor. What's the deal there, I thought they retconned it so that Thor was just Thor now? Explain to me how Thor works!

Waterhaul
Nov 5, 2005


it was a nice post,
you shouldn't have signed it.





zoux posted:

I was reading the Invincible Iron Man Reconstructed run and it had Don Blake turning into Thor. What's the deal there, I thought they retconned it so that Thor was just Thor now? Explain to me how Thor works!

The Thor/Donald Blake stuff was constantly on/off throughout the entirety of Thor.

Donald Blake was a human cypher for Thor as a punishment from Odin and they would go through periods of being fused together until the films came out and Donald Blake wasn't in the films so he was killed off in the comics and effectively written out of existence.

Waterhaul fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Mar 3, 2014

Endless Mike
Aug 13, 2003

Get running
Start pumping your bunions, I'm coming
I'm the dumbest, who flamethrow your function to Funyons
Flame your crew quicker than Trump fucks his youngest
Now face the flame fuckers your fame and fate's done with



zoux posted:

I was reading the Invincible Iron Man Reconstructed run and it had Don Blake turning into Thor. What's the deal there, I thought they retconned it so that Thor was just Thor now? Explain to me how Thor works!
To start with, that is not what retcon means. Ignoring that, currently Thor is just Thor, and I think that happened following Fear Itself (someone else can correct me). At the start of JMS's run on Thor, he was back to switching places with Donald Blake for awhile for reasons I don't remember, but I do recall all the Asgardians got stuck in human bodies as a result of Ragnarok during Avengers Disassembled, so it was essentially the return of Thor after awhile.

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Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006



Thor could turn into Blake again from 2004-2011 or something.

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