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Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



McSpanky posted:

I just wanted to C/P this to see if anyone else could contribute because I'm a history nerd and Golden Age fan too.

Just to pick it up a little for you, I'm very disappointed that so little of golden age Captain Marvel is collected. There are five archive volumes, a couple of "best of" books, and a decades out of print and horribly expensive edition of The Monster Society of Evil. Even if you get all of that, you've only got about 1/10th of golden age output for Captain Marvel.

DC's always had a problem with what to do with their golden age stuff. There's an audience for it, but it's tiny. Of course, Marvel has done even less with their golden age material...

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Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



bobkatt013 posted:

Really? They have released a good amount in Marvel Masterworks format. I am still pissed that they said they were releasing a trade of The Monster Society of Evil, but cancelled it.

DC has published 110 golden age archives, though very few of them are complete runs (the Spirit, obviously makes a up a huge chunk of that). Their biggest failing is with Captain Marvel who, like I said, they're missing about 90% of his golden age stories but even Batman's archives stopped with about eight years to go until they hit the silver age reprints.

Marvel has printed 30 Masterworks volumes of golden age material. Now in total fairness to Marvel, their golden age library is a lot smaller than DC who absorbed a dozen publishers over the years. So percentage-wise they come out better than DC, but not by much. Also, only the slightest of their golden age masterwork collections are complete. DC managed to at least complete a few of their big projects before they stopped publishing their archives.

zoux posted:

Is AXM #38 the first time Lockheed has a conversation the issue where he has a reunion with Kitty after she comes back?

Lockheed talked to a giant dragon in a Claremont era issue, but we didn't get to understand the dialog. Since then he's been shown to be intelligent and capable of conversation from time to time, though I don't recall him ever talking to humans (I haven't read that story so I'm not sure that's what you were referring to).

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Uncle Boogeyman posted:

Wait, DC is no longer doing the archive editions? That's a bit disappointing. I have the Golden Age Hawkman one and it's great, I've been meaning to snag the Dr. Fate and Charlton Action Heroes ones.

I could have sworn that they were shutting down the line but it looks like they've just cut way back on the production. Since July of last year only one has been released and the only archive on the schedule is in May. That may be winding things down, or two to three books a year could be the new plan going forward.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Jim Shooter posted:

Did I have a "moral" issue with that? Yes. More than that, it was a character issue. Would Storm sit comfortably at a dinner table with someone who had killed billions as if nothing had ever happened? Nah.



Actually, according to comics the answer is yes. And not just Storm, of course. No one seems to remember any of the atrocities the latest villain turned anti-hero has done once they get past their one storyline long outraged period.

prefect posted:

Jim Shooter was (according to some) kind of a tyrant during his time as Editor in Chief; he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

Absolutely and at the same time he really was the man who "made the trains run on time". He saved Marvel from complete collapse by ruling things with an iron fist (but not Iron Fist).

CapnAndy posted:

My memory may decieve me, and I didn't pay very close attention, but as I recall the reaction was "that's not funny" and then nobody bought it.

Yeah, the reaction was more "What the gently caress?" than outrage.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



CapnAndy posted:

Here, I'll handle it for you in nine words: They made him a literal fairy. What the gently caress.

I think he was talking about the second time where they sent out press releases and turned it into an event.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



rkajdi posted:

He did have a gay character while at Valiant, that dude who palled around with X-O and lost his hand. And of course was 100% untrustworthy, betraying Aric and giving the X-O to some thugs. We couldn't have a positive gay character in the 50s 90s could we?

I think the point is that Shooter was never that great a human being, and deserves all the poo poo he got before and gets now.

If he was gay I'm 90% sure that didn't get dropped into his character until after Shooter had been forced out of Valiant (which was actually relatively early in the X-O run at issue 9). In the early issues he was presented as a generic rear end in a top hat businessman and I don't recall anything about his sexuality.

Which isn't actually a defense of Shooter, of course. Everything I've heard about the man is that he was a pretty lovely guy. I just think you can't really use that as an example.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



rkajdi posted:

I could be misremembering, but I think it got brought up pre-Unity. That's the only X-O I read of the original series.

FAKE EDIT: Found it, issue #5 "Mmm, You're one good looking man Aric. If you were gay, you'd be perfect." Of course, this is also the issue that he starts betraying Aric. It's only a single line in there, but it fit with everything else that happened with him (i.e. being drawn a bit feminine, some of his vocab choices being a bit stereotypically gay) to create the standard gay betrayer.

If it was that small of a moment then that would be why I completely forgot about it. Not that I want to use my brain for storing a lot of details about Valiant comics.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Madkal posted:

When are they going to start renumbering Amazing Fantasy?

2004. They have published two different Amazing Fantasy #16's also.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Alien Rope Burn posted:

Four words:

"Created by Chris Claremont."

That Claremont Fantastic Four run is a real shitshow. I've read the issues and I don't think I could explain the plot of it to save my life.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Endless Mike posted:

He can feel the ink impressions on paper with his fingers, so he can read regular printed paper that way, and he can also read Braille. He can't see the letters, though, no.

This is the kind of thing that made sense in the 1960's but I wonder if he can read glossy printed magazines created with modern technology. I would think that would all feel the same to him.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Teenage Fansub posted:

How was his Johns' JSA run? Is that omnibus going to be a good read?

Relatively good superhero books. If you ever found anything by Johns enjoyable then you'll probably like reading it.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Rhyno posted:

Bendis once talked about leaving it and at the time everyone assumed that Robert Kirkman would take over when he left. They both talked about it in a few interviews from time to time.

Then Kirkman did whatever it was that made him not so popular at Marvel and the chances of that happening evaporated. Thank god.

What, you weren't interested in seeing Miles (or Peter I guess if it was that early) punching villain's heads off every issue?

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



I had a strange thought. Has Bruce Banner ever been served?

What I mean is, the Hulk does a lot of damage. Bruce Banner must get sued all the time for that. So I was thinking, what's it like to be the guy who has to serve Bruce Banner? He might be used to it by now and no longer get angry but the first few times it would be bad.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Big Bad Voodoo Lou posted:

EDIT: This may have been retconned in the New 52 to make Gambi a guy who stitches together costumes out of human skin.

I would be sad if this was true.

Not surprised. Just sad.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



bobkatt013 posted:

I got X-men 1 and I have 20 copies and there are a bunch of different covers!

You fool! The only one that's worth anything is the one that's all the covers put together!

muscles like this? posted:

Yeah, Lyta and Hector Hall were minor but established DC characters before Sandman started.

As were Cain and Able. I mean those particular versions of Cain and Able. Most of the dream characters were hosts of various horror anthologies from the seventies. And Destiny was one as well.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



McSpanky posted:

I liked it in the Crisis on Two Earths animated movie when Earth Prime wasn't anything special, and in fact wasn't even alive anymore because they did something cataclysmic that threw their planet clear out of its orbit. Maybe Earth-1's the same, it's just some random schlub universe where Popeye eats kale instead of spinach or Earth is the fourth planet from the sun but otherwise nothing's changed.

I assumed Earth-1 was the Earth-1 and it was just a gentle nudge in the ribs for the reader.

Lord Hydronium posted:

I know that Marvel's multiverse has a universe for every single alternate continuity and What-If under the Marvel banner. Is DC's multiverse the same way with Elseworlds? Like, is there a distinct canonical Red Son universe or Kingdom Come universe?

Uh-oh. Someone just opened the .

The answer is yes, then no, then they said no while making the answer yes, then yes but they called it something else, then no, then yes but only fifty-two of them, then no again, and currently yes with fifty-two again.

Random Stranger fucked around with this message at 13:04 on May 24, 2014

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Edge & Christian posted:

A rough timeline of DC's treatment of The Multiverse:
[snip good summary of how confusing and stupid this is]

Just to expound on a few points that make this more confusing.

- "Flash of Two Worlds" actually didn't introduce the idea that there were two effectively identical Batmen just on separate earths. Initially they just seemed to focus on the heroes that might have a golden age counterpart but are a different person (though Jay does think back to Wonder Woman in WWII during his second appearance in Barry's book). Using multiple versions of the same character didn't really start until the JLA/JSA crossovers. The implications of the Earth-1 creators writing Superman and Wonder Woman comics in the forties is not explored.

- The "not really counting" stories of the sixties weren't referred to as occurring on other earths. Different books had different terms for them. In Superman books they were "imaginary stories" (aren't they all?), in Wonder Woman they were called "impossible stories". Batman's out of continuity stories were called "Bob Haney Brave and the Bold stories" .

- The real differences in the multiple earths got kind of focused in the 70's when Roy Thomas (among others) began regularly setting stories on them. Earth-2 in particular had multiple ongoing series set there. This was a large part of why DC decided to do the Crisis; apparently the editorial thought that having different books interact with each other differently was too confusing. Given the chaos that follows, this is laughable.

- There were a lot of continuity holes created by saying "there's only ever been one earth". And not just "let's not talk about that" continuity holes, but "Wait, how's this supposed to work?" holes. So not alternate earths, but pocket universes, alternate dimensions, changed timelines, and anything else as long as you didn't say it was another earth was okay after Crisis. This just added to the confusion.

- Morrison was more than happy to ignore the rules of the DC universe whenever it suited him and used alternate earths if he wanted to. I can't say I like half of what he's written but he was right to just ignore the madness that DC had built up.

DC's history with this stuff really is absurd, painful, and now a thirty year long running joke among comic fans.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Edge & Christian posted:

Don't forget the stories that were just Alfred writing in his diary what he imagined things might be like in the future when Master Bruce gets married! Many of those stories had tragic elements, which was interesting.

I forgot about those. Making this more confusing is that it was a patch onto Bob Haney's own out of continuity stories for World's Finest.

Rhyno posted:

She's never once referred to as a Kryptonian. She's not even human.

Didn't even have Kryptonian powers. She was telekinetic and used that to mimic a lot of Kryptonian abilities.

If only Kronos hasn't tried to look in on the Spectre masturbating, none of this would have happened.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Alien Rope Burn posted:

It's not fondly remembered largely because of the nonsensical ending where most of Earth's heroes find suicide a viable solution, and the following Heroes Reborn taking a dump on many of Marvel's major titles for about a year. If it wasn't for that it'd probably fall in line with Maximum Carnage and other overwrought but mostly just silly 90s crossovers.

Hey, what could possibly go wrong by giving Marvel flagship books (except X-Men and Spider-Man) to the Image creators for a year?

But yeah, Onslaught is just another bad 90's comic cross over for the pile. More readable than The Crossing, at least.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



redbackground posted:

I mean, it ran for 62 issues. Someone was reading it.

It goes way downhill after about issue 30 when Loiuse Simonson wound down on it. She did about every other issue for a while and then left entirely.

But, yeah, it wasn't a big hit but it seems to have done okay as an all ages comic and people in Marvel liked the book so they got used all over the place. Besides, it gave Wolverine another young girl to team up with.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



zoux posted:

Haha did Peter David just retcon all of the Bruce Jones run as "just a dream"?

Yes, he did. And we were all grateful for it even if his return wasn't that great.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Edge & Christian posted:

I mainly remember most of the arguments about WWH either being "this is bullshit, this guy would never beat this other guy" and "yeah but Hulk is totally right and he's a fukken pussy he should kill that rear end in a top hat Tony Stark and Doctor Strange and REED RICHARDS THAT PIECE OF poo poo COCKSUCKER of course Marvel is pussying out and not letting Hulk be a badass Hulk is blameless and should slaughter everyone one of those monsters".

World War Hulk bothered me because Tony Stark confessed to crimes that would send him away for twenty years in a world wide broadcast and there were zero consequences. Marvel seemed to not even realize that a major government official saying, "Why yes, as a private citizen I did kidnap and effectively imprison a man," would have major fallout.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



greatn posted:

I'm pretty sure there's even a full time employee of the military whose job is to kidnap and imprison the Hulk. I think he turned into a Hulk later.

The difference being that he actually had a mandate from the government to go out and arrest Bruce Banner. (Maybe. Sometimes. Look, real-life political considerations is one more thing to throw onto the pile of things that Marvel doesn't understand along with the effects of radiation on a human body and what exactly a "mutant" is.) Tony Stark and pals just decided to do it on their own, didn't hold a trial, and launched the guy into space. Even if more of the population of Marvel America okay with this, Tony has political enemies who can easily latch onto the "Why isn't this guy in prison right now?" thing. He'd be so mired in scandal at the very least he'd have to resign as the directory of S.H.I.E.L.D., though he did things on a weekly basis that should have had people calling for his blood on the nightly news so what's one more scandal that should have prevented him from functioning?

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



SirDan3k posted:

Bruce Banner hasn't been legally considered a person in years. AS far as the government is concerned Banner died in the accident and the monster created by the same accident occasionally decides to look like Banner.

Banner is legally dead and has been basically since his identity got outed.

Then why did they put him on trial in a TV movie with Daredevil defending him?

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



SiKboy posted:

Honestly my problem with the FF origin needing an update isnt so much that people have been to the moon and came back fine (after all, other people have died attempting to get into orbit, so its not like its 100% safe), its that "He didnt put radiation shielding in the ship" now makes him look like a massive idiot. "There is a lot of radiation in space, and radiation bad" is literally high school science now. Of course it wasnt in 1961, but nowadays it hardly makes Reed seem like a supergenius.

I didnt hate the update of the origin for the movie to be honest. Admittedly every other part of the movie was loving dreadful, but they managed to update the origin okay.

A few things have used that revised version of the FF's origin and saying they got caught with their pants down by the worst onslaught of cosmic radiation ever is a good compromise.

If I was rebooting the Fantastic Four, I'd have Reed predicting a gamma ray burst that would boil off half the planet and he goes into space to try to shield the planet. No one believes him so he recruits his friends to help but it's a suicide mission where they knows the shielding for the passengers probably won't hold. Fill in the obvious blanks and you've got an origin that makes them worldwide heroes before becoming the FF. It helps bridge the transition a bit more cleanly, Reed isn't an idiot, and the Thing gets a bit more pathos ("Woe is me! People love me for saving them and reject me for my appearance! Why didn't I die in space?"). Poor Sue and Johnny are always going to be the loose end of the origin, though.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Senor Candle posted:

I disagree, I think Reed knowing that it is his fault that this happened to his loved ones is an important part of his character.
Sorry for the million pictures, had to take them from panel view off my phone.
From the first issue of Mark Waid's F4

The thing is that Waid is pretty much the only guy to approach the origin from that direction. It's a terrific idea and it works brilliantly, but if no one is going to use that characterization for Reed then you might as well let it go.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



muscles like this? posted:

Inspired by the page posted in the Chat thread, I've only read modern comics with the Spectre which have focused on his being the instrument of God's wrath. What was his character like in older comics? Was he actually running around doing "superhero" stuff?

The answer is that it's complicated. He wasn't the Wrath of God until Ostrander revamped him, but the Spectre has a really weird history.

So you start with the Seigel run and like I posted, he just wills people to death. The stories at the beginning seem to be mainly, "Spectre encounters some gangsters, looks at them, and they're so frightened that they die." Occasionally he'd do something like turn giant and crush a car before throwing it past the horizon and he blew up a planet because someone on it was screwing with him, but that was the exception rather than the rule. Early on they seemed to realize that there was a power issue but working from the structure of the golden age comic story they didn't actually use that. Instead the Spectre would be drawn out of the universe by the voice that empowered him or other unexplained cosmic phenomenon at inconvenient moments.

Toward the late golden age, though, they toned him down entirely. He got himself a sidekick and just went around punching out crooks.

So the Spectre vanishes for about twenty years before being revived in the mid-sixties where he's almost used as a DC silver age response to Dr. Strange. He has the crazy adventures and his powers seemed to be do whatever he needed to, but occasionally he was weakened. Not great stories since they're your basic DC silver age stuff (not even the ones I'd point out as being entertainingly goofy) but there is some spectacular art in this era, particularly from Neal Adams.

Toward the end of this period, there were stories that made the Spectre and Jim Corrigan separate individuals. This happened once or twice obliquely in the golden age (he'd split in half and talk to himself), but it's firmly established here. They were divided on the idea of whether or not the Spectre should kill and seemed like a retcon on why he started out really violent and then stopped. This also transitioned into a brief time when he hosted a horror comic.

After two issues of that, Michael Fleisher and Jim Aparo got their hands on the character. The previous issue ended with the Spectre jumping out to unmask a guy disguised as a ventriloquist dummy and then watching as the police put him in a jail cell. In their first issue, the Spectre makes a guy drive off a cliff, melts a guy's arms because he pulls a gun, and then turns out the lights and strips a guy to a skeleton before turning the lights back on. Their run lasts a year and is hugely influential. It's the key to the "Spectre does crazy things to get criminals" characterization. Also, the Spectre and Corrigan are back to being the same guy again.

So once they leave, the Spectre goes into limbo (ha ha) for a few years doing occasional guest appearances and the like. The Phantom Stranger takes over the supernatural adventures role in the 1970's and he's sidelined until the post-Crisis series where Corrigan and the Spectre are separate again and he's just doing the standard superhero thing. This series is not worth checking out on any level.

Finally we get to the Ostrander run where the idea that he's the Wrath of God comes up and most of the series is really about exploring the ethics and morality of the situation. This is the best Spectre stuff to read and it really cemented the portrayal of the character.

After that there isn't much to say. Hal Jordan took over the role and J.M. DeMatteis tried to make him the Spirit of Redemption. Crispus Allen took on the role next but they didn't really do a lot with him before the new-52 hit.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



redbackground posted:

Why in hell were comics in the '80s just obsessed with making sure readers knew that the story continued after an ad page? Was there just that much confusion about such things back then?

That stuff was mainly gone by the 1980's. The sixties and seventies had a lot of it, though.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Gavok posted:

Who are characters that Marvel is simply not allowed to use despite being part of its canon continuity?

Off the top of my head:

- Rom: Spaceknight
- Micronauts
- NFL Superpro
- Godzilla
- Charcoal from Thunderbolts
- Conan the Barbarian
- Red Sonja

I seem to recall that Patriot is off limits, but I don't understand why.

The Transformers and, by extension, GI Joe. Also, Doc Savage and I think Kull links in to continuity someway.

Oh, there's also the Not Ready for Prime Time Players and David Letterman.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



A Tin Of Beans posted:

When did Namor go from wearing his little swim trunks to actual pants and stuff? Is there a specific issue. Is this ever addressed in the text of a comic.

1974. He got hit by something that made it difficult for him to breathe so to deal with that he got a fancy black suit with pants. This is after over 100 consecutive issues of Namor going around in his bathing suit, not to mention decades of stories before that.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Rhyno posted:

His black suit looks awesome. That's why he wears pants.

Well, yeah. Black suit Namor doesn't make me question my heterosexuality looks a lot cooler than the speedo look. I kind of hope that no one ever goes back to it other than one off bits. This being comics, I'm sure that it'll come back eventually.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Skwirl posted:

Marvel employs a man call the "Asstimator" and whenever they need a specific number for something, they reach deep inside his rear end and pull it out.

And that man's name was Mark Grunewald.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



CzarChasm posted:

Well, the Yancy Street Gang, most notably

Kirby never drew any Yancy Streeters, they were always off panel or in shadow. OTOH, he created the Forever People which was another group of kids hanging out and going to amusement parks... that were built by Darkseid.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Cassa posted:

Has Loki ever wielded Thor's hammer?

I read a comic last night where he picked up the walking stick and shoved it in Don Blake's face if that counts, but I think any times Loki has been shown holding mjolnir it's been a trick or a fake of some kind.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



While we're on this, I thought it would be a fun storyline if Loki reversed the enchantment on the hammer and made it so that anyone who was not worthy could wield the hammer. Cue Thor desperately trying to deal with a situation where everybody is carrying around his hammer and causing havoc. If you can't come up with half a dozen cool things to do with that concept then you must not be a comics fan.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Nehru the Damaja posted:

How often is DD depicted as other kinds of lawyers? I know he's a high profile civil litigator in the beginning of the Bendis run, and while I wouldn't call it canon, Superior Foes seems to place him as a prosecutor briefly.

He's done literally everything possible in the legal system because bad writers tend to drop them all into one big bucket marked "lawyer". There's rarely consistency even in a run from a single writer, let alone between writers.

I've been bothered by just how unethical Matt Murdock is as an attorney. If you can name a portion of the code of conduct for attorneys, he's violated it (except maybe overbilling his hours, but then I wouldn't be shocked if he did that as well). And not just in the 60's; modern books regularly present him as a terrible lawyer (though never acknowledge that). I know comics have him disbarred on several occasions but this is usually an evil plot and he's reinstated as soon as the writer decides he wants Murdock to set up yet another law office.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



WickedHate posted:

That's the same way it is with scientists and non-medical doctors.

So you're saying entomologists don't work on particle physics or artificial intelligence?

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



bobkatt013 posted:

When have they shown hi to be a terrible lawyer? They usually show him to be a great lawyer and sought out.

I ran through a bunch of issues looking for a specific example, but I hit a run where Murdock didn't do much as an attorney. Basically, any time he's in court or working on a case, he's almost always shown to be doing something that he should be disbarred for. Witness intimidation, conflicts of interest, and just downright dishonesty are common for him.

This unethical behavior is very common in fictional lawyers because writers like to have good guys and bad guys, not two guys doing their jobs. So they'll be "heroic" and do things that violate the basic trust of their clients or break the law to help them.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Wolpertinger posted:

But I thought bounty hunters needed some sort of license.

You can get your license from an intensive afternoon course at the Ramada. Just don't go into the conference room next door or you'll be licensed as an alternative medicine practitioner.

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Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



StashAugustine posted:

So if Wolverine's skeleton is metal how does he get red blood cells then, hmm?

Healing factor.

Frankly, the metal skeleton should give Wolverine a lot of health issues plus make him more vulnerable comics makes him out to be. Those memory holes aren't from evil government projects, they're because he gives himself five concussions a day just walking around.

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