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OwlBot 2000 posted:I made a joke or two in GBS but decided I wanted to actually learn what is being done or should be done because India is really that bad. Nothing really can be done in such an ingrained issue filled region. I mean even colonizing or whatever would need to involve bringing back the "well in my culture we hang people who do [insane backwards thing like widow burning or gang rape as punishment] so let's see what culture wins" type of argument and that's not really effective or pleasant.
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Mar 11, 2014 06:32
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Yes that would be the reference. Satisfying, and a pretty sweet burn, but not really effective for long lasting changes.
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Mar 11, 2014 06:40
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ronya posted:Duly note that if you can empower women, you would be doing a lot that is necessary to enact cultural transformation, like crippling traditional family law, granting property titles, and so forth. Seriously all this 'well what if we remove power from the landlord class' won't actually DO anything. The problem is India is pretty much universally gripped by several social systems that are just objectively backwards and regressive. Those are what need to be fixed and some magic not-dictator can't actually make those changes.
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Mar 11, 2014 14:50
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Thundercracker posted:I have an amazing idea: Let the Indians handle their affairs. Like has attempting to shoulder the "White Men's Burden" ever worked out to the benefit of the indigenious population? The topic of direct intervention lasted for like one post, most everyone here is talking about the problems they face as a broad concept. It's not white man's burden to say a country is hosed up and should do things like educate its women.
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Mar 11, 2014 17:21
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:And regardless of how lovely the caste system is, ultimately you're arguing from a stance of cultural superiority here, aren't you? There are some cultures that are objectively wrong. A culture where a woman has decent odds of being raped as punishment if she reports a rape is most likely one of those.
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Mar 12, 2014 01:21
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computer parts posted:Actually, to be honest the "Culture X is better than Culture Y" is problematic. There are certainly aspects of cultures which may be objectively worse but it's kind of dismissive to say that the entire culture of a region is fundamentally inferior. Islam is not misogynistic but, say, the current culture in Saudi Arabia is, and as a culture that oppresses people systematically it's inferior to one that provides equal rights and protection. I don't see the problem in making the statement specific. I agree 'Islam is misogynistic' is a wrong thing to say but in the other case I'm talking about a specific place that I don't think anyone can argue isn't misogynistic? Like, if we all agree misogyny is bad, and a culture where a woman is in more danger seeking help for her rape than not is bad, why can't we say 'so it'd be better if that wasn't how things were there'?
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Mar 12, 2014 01:50
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computer parts posted:Anti-vaccination is popular in some parts of this country, would you say American culture endorses it? The government, for the most part, do not give them power. Remind me who in India leadership is saying hey maybe we should clean this major water source that looks more like a sewage overflow?
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Mar 12, 2014 04:50
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I don't even know how this is arguable. America is hosed up but if I ever said "yo my cousin said she got raped, we should rape her as a village as punishment" I'd like, if not go to jail at least be told I'm an idiot and ignored. A place where I'd be agreed with has something objectively worse about it. I'm not sayin every Indian is a rapist, or even rape is an inherent part of the culture, I'm sayin what is going on now is the wrong thing.
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Mar 12, 2014 04:59
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Yep and I feel safe saying they are all objectively wrong and backwards in that regard.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:10
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ronya posted:... so there are material factors behind the cultural treatment of women? If you want to see gang rape as punishment in the West, you don't have to go very far. Try the projects. They're not inherent to the culture, they will re-emerge promptly whenever the material conditions reappear. It's not something you can 'fix' by spamming them with Westernized media and values. And we have a standard in civilized societies where if you gang rape a lady you're mad at, you're probably going to jail. The places where village leaders are allowed to sanction it as just punishment for a woman are the ones who need to join the modern world.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:13
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I'm not denying gang rape exists here, I'm saying the mayor of poo poo Creek Idaho isn't allowed to sentence a woman to it because she had an affair.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:15
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Serious answer, education and long term reform being placed as a priority to urbanize more of the nation and allow for a more strong central government with less autonomy for village elders. More snarky but not totally joking answer, bet if you started hanging elders who pulled poo poo like that you'd see a drop.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:24
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ronya posted:Seriously. Try it in another federated, decentralized, populist society close to home. America, say. How do you think that advocating that the great cities of the Eastern and Western seaboards should dictate public morality and family law in conservativesville would be received? Cursorily we could say that popular election of sheriffs and prosecutors and judges was always dumb, and that all of these posts should be filled by central appointment, but do you think this would be easy to implement in America? Yea I bet a lot of shitbags get mad whenever we pass a law like "don't beat your wife". We tell them to eat poo poo and if they break that law we put them in jail. I bet Bumfuck Nebraska hates a lot of laws that DC passes. Sucks for them.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:31
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The Walking Dad posted:If you want to help India, send monetary donations to the Marxist parties. Which Marxists, the parties who want to enslave the lower class even more to the Arab states, or the parties that want to make it straight up illegal to hire non-union workers ever, which currently means making the majority of Indian laborers invalid? edit: Oh and it just happens these insane concepts won't have any effect on the ethnic groups that makeup these 'parties of the people'. sexpig by night fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Mar 13, 2014 |
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Mar 13, 2014 12:02
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PrBacterio posted:Wouldn't that be illegal? I imagine like most countries India has laws against foreigners giving money to political parties. Communist imperialism is ok, duh. It's like you haven't even read this pdf of Mao's red book that I skimmed over once.
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Mar 13, 2014 12:14
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If you legitimately believe it's either isolationism or imperialism as if it's some kinda off/on switch I don't know how you can think anyone will take your view of groups like the UN seriously. Like, you've already established that literally anything but isolationism (which, in itself if a huge spectrum) is imperialism to you.
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Mar 13, 2014 19:21
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Boogaleeboo posted:No I'm pretty much entirely loving around because Owlbot was a joke in the India thread in GBS, but the UN has actually gotten up to some terrible things that just get brushed under the rug. And I'm surprised every time people forget that. We didn't forget it but that doesn't make you not a crazy dude for acting like they're standard operations or whatever and the UN is part of the "IMPERIALISM ON" side of the switch.
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Mar 13, 2014 19:45
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New Division posted:It's one thing to provide education for members of your own culture, and a fairly different thing to try and 'educate' another culture. That's before you consider the fact that providing 'education' for subordinated cultures has been a historical feature of every empire ever, and was often involved cruelty and repression towards the subordinate culture. Why are there dismissive quotes around education when the issue is mainly 'don't rape girls and set them on fire or cut their clits off'? Can we not say there are objectively wrong views to hold and they should be educated away?
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Apr 15, 2014 00:58
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illrepute posted:I don't really get why people are going after a dude for putting quotation marks around "Education" when their own posts are bookended by ones suggesting that a little war to destroy some thirty percent of the Indian population might be a good solution to go for. Yea that other guy's a fuckin moron but there's no real discussion to be had with that kind of dude. I can ask a question about quotes and probably get a non-insane answer, but yea if I ask the dude why he thinks a little war is good for the poors I don't really think I'm going to get an answer that isn't stupid/crazy. edit: see? I got an answer that reads like a human being who doesn't live in the 19th century responded. New Division posted:The changes and education is going to have to be pushed from within Indian society. I think there are reasons to be optimistic that this will happen, though it may not be as rapid as some hope. I think there are very few people saying the only option here is to colonize them again, but the fact is the Indian government and general culture is super resistant to these efforts. I mean, people keep saying we should just support the right parties and all but the socialist party that controls one of the biggest chunks of populated land just said 'eh death penalty for rapists is no good, a lot of women are lairs you know'. There are very few efforts within the place to change things. sexpig by night fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Apr 15, 2014 |
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Apr 15, 2014 01:03
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shrike82 posted:Considering that the OP is arguing that the impetus for change will come externally, I don't see why it's weird to interpret the thread as Colonialism 2.0 Do you believe outside NGOs are colonial powers?
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Apr 15, 2014 01:07
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shrike82 posted:If you can't differentiate between an NGO holding educational classes on contraceptives and a foreign government imposing sanctions... It's a yes or no question, an NGO is an 'outside force' educating people about things that are pretty objectively wrong, you said the post talking about any outside force doing that was easy to jump to imperialism. By 'not hewing the line' you mean literally criminalizing it and publishing a list of gays to incite violence?
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Apr 15, 2014 01:11
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New Division posted:I think there's some reasons to be hopeful. For one the younger generation of Indian women looks like it has a lot of members who will be willing to challenge old cultural norms and practices, and the very fact that these issues are being widely discussed and acknowledged as an issue within the Indian public sphere is a good thing. Waiting for the old guys to die off never works though.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:13
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New Division posted:Not all NGOs could be considered outside forces. There are some Indian NGOs. And they most likely need outisde aid. Is that imperialism? I mean if I give money to an Indian NGO because I believe that the excuse of 'well it's the culture' doesn't justify raping a nine year old isn't that me forcing my values?
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Apr 15, 2014 01:19
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shrike82 posted:Wife burnings and caste are egregious but where do you draw the line on what deserves foreign intervention? That's a pretty huge drop in scale isn't it? But yea if some Dutch dude said that poo poo was backwards I'd go 'yea fair point'.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:31
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shrike82 posted:How about prison culture in the US? A UN program educating people that prison should be for rehab rather than punishment sure. Like don't worry man, these things won't change much for a while, we're talking a few posters saying 'yo maybe don't rape a nine year old' and 'leave that clit attached dude!' and outreach to the victims as the main function of these groups.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:44
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Thundercracker posted:I see your point. But "What should India do to speed up its development?" is maybe 10% of the solutions posted in this at best. Like, seriously the dominate theme of solutions is aligned with "How do we educate/fix/deal with these ignorant Indians". Why do you think education is on the same level as 'deal with these ignorant Indians'?
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Apr 15, 2014 02:46
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Yea if I was poor as poo poo (you said they were doing this in slums and poo poo, as in the places where people have near literally nothing?) I'd pretty much vote for whatever stupid crazy party was giving me fat stacks and booze, hard to be mad at anyone but the assholes who used those dudes as pawns there.
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May 17, 2014 16:42
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