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Shaggar
Apr 26, 2006


Nap Ghost

GPL is a toxic license for lovely people

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Poopernickel
Oct 28, 2005

electricity bad

Fun Shoe

GPLv2 is cool and good

GPLv3 is very bad

Poopernickel fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Nov 25, 2021

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003



i may have linked this in the licensing thread a while back but here's a good blog post by an IP lawyer analyzing AGPL that also goes a bit into stylistic/strategic weirdness in FSF-authored licenses in general

Antigravitas
Dec 8, 2019

I accept your surrender

shoeberto posted:

I bought a System76 for my new gig. It's pretty good but there's totally a fan rattle that's really annoying at certain RPMs. It's also clearly some rebrand of a Chinese manufacturer but the build quality is mostly pretty solid. I've never had a laptop where the OS was this closely tied to the hardware and it's pretty cool.

I've only had Lenovos recently for comparison and the build quality isn't as good as those, but again, the smooth software integration is really nice.

I think they are trying to move away from Clevo builds to some of their own now. Apparently they got enough business that they can do this.

Clevo rebrands are kind of neat actually. They aren't state of the art, but "state of the art" means "impossible to repair", and these things are (comparatively) trivial to take apart. They use fairly standard parts.

Rufus Ping
Dec 27, 2006





I'm a Friend of Rodney Nano


Progressive JPEG posted:

i may have linked this in the licensing thread a while back but here's a good blog post by an IP lawyer analyzing AGPL that also goes a bit into stylistic/strategic weirdness in FSF-authored licenses in general

Enjoyed this, thanks

Gentle Autist
Jun 4, 2003



Poopernickel posted:

GPLv2 is cool and good

GPLv3 is very bad



actually theyíre both bad

mawarannahr
May 21, 2019



Progressive JPEG posted:

i mean even lenovo, who are probably still selling models with vga ports to this day, have usbc power

Iíve had awful luck with the USB-C/TB ports in my T480, which has given me more problems than any computer Iíve ever had. they were replaced twice and now the main one for power stopped working again, and Iím out of the extended warranty. theyíre really weak and the cable tends to fall out with the slightest budge (cable brand doesnít matter). based on that and awful thunderbird firmware issues, I will never buy or recommend a thinkpad to anyone.

Iím waiting for this to die so I can get a MacBook or maybe an XPS (which I had before and enjoyed, but 4GB ram was no longer needs suiting)

matti
Mar 31, 2019


#1 PRESIDENT
JACKIE CHAN
FAN CLUB

ASK ME
ANYTHING




only reason i dont like kde is that they dont loving space things

aargh look at how near that box is to the text

it infuriates me

matti
Mar 31, 2019


#1 PRESIDENT
JACKIE CHAN
FAN CLUB

ASK ME
ANYTHING



license chat i use MPL 2.0

Eclipse Public License is another good one if you do you not want to commit to GNU compatibility.

matti fucked around with this message at 11:04 on Nov 25, 2021

Tankakern
Jul 25, 2007



shoeberto posted:

I bought a System76 for my new gig. It's pretty good but there's totally a fan rattle that's really annoying at certain RPMs. It's also clearly some rebrand of a Chinese manufacturer but the build quality is mostly pretty solid. I've never had a laptop where the OS was this closely tied to the hardware and it's pretty cool.

I've only had Lenovos recently for comparison and the build quality isn't as good as those, but again, the smooth software integration is really nice.

i hate the whole concept of branding ODM laptops and selling them, what's the point. just sell them as compal or whatever and be done with it so you don't have to plow through random tech forums to find out what ODM they used this time

that's why the framework project is so good, it's an actual designed laptop with some unique features

Gentle Autist
Jun 4, 2003



shoeberto posted:

I've never had a laptop where the OS was this closely tied to the hardware and it's pretty cool.


try an apple macintosh op

Truga
May 4, 2014


Lipstick Apathy



already on it op

Tankakern
Jul 25, 2007



enjoying your software rendering i guess

it'll be pretty neat when they got mesa actually rendering stuff proper, and big kudos that they've gotten this far already with all the other hw stuff

Tankakern
Jul 25, 2007



lol at i use arch btw

Truga
May 4, 2014


Lipstick Apathy

not my pic, i'm much worse, i use debian lol

https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1458473550180859908

shoeberto
Jun 13, 2020

which way to the MACHINES?


Gentle Autist posted:

try an apple macintosh op

Link?

Poopernickel
Oct 28, 2005

electricity bad

Fun Shoe

Gentle Autist posted:

try an apple macintosh op

cosmic crisps are better, op

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011



Tankakern posted:

i hate the whole concept of branding ODM laptops and selling them, what's the point. just sell them as compal or whatever and be done with it so you don't have to plow through random tech forums to find out what ODM they used this time

that's why the framework project is so good, it's an actual designed laptop with some unique features

shame that intel stopped using rPGA after haswell mobile, otherwise they could even go so far as having "source your own/DIY upgrade later" available for the CPU as well as everything else

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003



mawarannahr posted:

Iíve had awful luck with the USB-C/TB ports in my T480, which has given me more problems than any computer Iíve ever had. they were replaced twice and now the main one for power stopped working again, and Iím out of the extended warranty. theyíre really weak and the cable tends to fall out with the slightest budge (cable brand doesnít matter).

partner has a t480 and it works fine, he's pretty klutzy too so it feels like he would have broken it by now if it were a widespread defect

tho on the flip side i'd been burned a couple times by poo poo apple hardware and thats what drove me into ThinkPad's loving tracknub arms to begin with

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003



matti posted:

license chat i use MPL 2.0

Eclipse Public License is another good one if you do you not want to commit to GNU compatibility.

i use fafol on hobby things that aren't libraries

Poopernickel
Oct 28, 2005

electricity bad

Fun Shoe

finally, a modern update to the wtfpl

N.Z.'s Champion
Jun 8, 2003

what's hara kiri?


Yam Slacker

just use bsd and act betrayed when vendors fork and don't contribute back

pseudorandom name
May 6, 2007
INSOLENT


just use BSD and whine about how it is the clearly superior solution and ignore how the unclear licensing situation turned it into an evolutionary dead end

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node
Not Found:ins:




finally you're talking sense!

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull


pseudorandom name posted:

just use BSD and whine about how it is the clearly superior solution and ignore how the unclear licensing situation turned it into an evolutionary dead end

that and the old-guard insider cabal project governance which absolutely failed at capturing the new wave of enthusiastic people flooding in looking for an open source unix to contribute to

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node
Not Found:ins:




lol cabal

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011



alternatively, write your own unix under whatever license you want

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


The software freedom conservancy absolutely will take action against GPL violators. Whether it's in court, or extraordinary rendition to an undisclosed location where the abductee watches revolution OS for 120 hours in a clockwork orange type setup.

Re: BSD and licensing. How much did microsoft and apple kick back to freebsd for the generous donation of a network stack and base operating system?

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node
Not Found:ins:




I'm insomniac and bored out of my mind, so have a lot of :words:

I think there's a fundamental bit of philosophy that a lot of copyleft proponents miss (intentional or not, though I think it's mostly the latter), which is that to a lot of people working on copyfree licenses (not just BSD or MIT, but all of them), the important part isn't that someone else contributes back, that they get kick-backs, or any of a number of other reasons that copyleft proponents often talk about.

Instead, it's that there should be at least one good implementation of something that should be available for everyone to use, instead of everyone having to implement their own thing - in the same vein that everyone isn't expected to be able to correctly implement cryptography.

In the specific cases of Microsoft and Apple, there's some history there that I'm sure there are lot of people that don't know about, so here's the short of it:

Microsoft didn't "steal" the FreeBSD stack. Spider Systems (based, at the time, in Edinburgh and which has since been swallowed up by Intel) was a company that Microsoft contracted to develop a TCP as well as a STREAMS (the native UNIX System 5 networking) stack(s).
Since it's proprietary, not a whole lot is known, but from what I remember at the time, a pre-release version of one of the early products at one point got released/leaked, which didn't have symbols stripped - and from that it was learned that the TCP stack had FreeBSD headers, and a few of the userland utilities (such as tracert) had a FreeBSD license embedded in them).
This, combined with Microsofts use of FreeBSD for Hotmail (because the company that owned Hotmail before Microsoft bought it used FreeBSD, until Microsoft made ISS capable of handling the load for the servers, some 5 years later) as well as the Windows Update servers, led to rumours of Microsoft using a lot more code than there's ever been any actual evidence for.

As for macOS, that's got an even longer history. It all, predictably enough, starts with NeXT. For reasons forgotten to history, it integrated part of BSD out of CSRG with a Mach kernel. Then, NeXT did its NeXT thing and Steve Jobs ended up at Apple with a lot of the people who'd worked on NeXT.
This led to what would eventually end up becoming Mac OS X, which was itself a remarkable shift away from Classic Mac OS, which would, partly because of previous experiments with Linux in the form of MkLinux, also not just have POSIX compatibility, but full on SUS compliance (because that was still somewhat of a selling point at that particular time).
So since the developers responsible were already familiar with the Mach kernel and BSD subsystems, they yoinked code from the biggest descendant of BSD (which was and is FreeBSD), hired some of FreeBSDs developers (Jordan Hubbard being the most prominent, but others too, as well as several others later on and even as recent as just a few years ago).
This leaves the question of what FreeBSD code is in macOS - and perhaps more importantly, how much of it is used. Firstly, there's a bunch of command-line userland tools (although many have been modified by Apple subsequent to being imported, and others either have been replaced or are being replaced with copyfree-alternatives). I honestly don't think these count for much, since only powerusers tend to use these, and while Apple is popular among powerusers, there are far more regular users who simply don't use the terminal.
Then there's the parts of the kernel, where there are three "big" uses: the netstack (as mentioned elsewhere, because it really has been used widely), the process model, and the VFS. Obviously, the process model and VFS get used all the time, and the netstack is hardly not going to see use considering almost nobody uses any system today without networking. However, even all-told, those three parts still only account for a tiny part of XNU, and the userland utilities are only a tiny part of Darwin.
There's also the elephant in the room, which is all the parts that make up macOS, which aren't part of Darwin: The entire UX in the form of Quartz (including compositing), things like Metal, Core(Video|Audio|Image|Animation|OpenGl|Graphics), the entire driver interface as well as every single driver, and too many other things to mention (if you're really curious, there's a CCC talk by "Lucy" from 2007 called Inside the Mac OS X kernel which provides more detail).

Now, what has Microsoft given back, monetarily? Who knows. Probably not much. As for code, around 1300 commits - although depending on how cynical you are, you can either view this as a good thing or Microsoft having customers on their Hyper-V cloud who want to use FreeBSD. To me, it can go either way, honestly - I'll take Microsoft commits just as readily as I'll take those of anyone else, but I don't think they're doing it purely out of the goodness of their hearts (they're a big corporation, and while they have individuals who're good, it's a difficult thing to mesh).
So what about Apple? Well, they haven't really sponsored much code (though that's perhaps because nobody's interested in picking through the huge changesets that result from them offering only date-based snapshots of Darwin with no VCS information). But they have given back, in the form of sponsoring a lot of conferences over the years (as in, sometimes being the primary sponsor), plus they've been instrumental in things like TrustedBSD (which has given us OpenBSM for auditing, MAC for RBAC et cetera, OpenPAM plus a bunch more things that I'm not sure Apple has been directly involved with). Oh, and they're also the primary reason why FreeBSD is almost GPL free because of LLVM - without that, FreeBSD and a lot of other software developers would still be dependent on the monoculture of GCC - and even if GCC has been enormously helpful, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that the best thing to happen to GCC was that it got some competition.
(I think over 8000 bytes is enough words)

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


quote:

Instead, it's that there should be at least one good implementation of something that should be available for everyone to use, instead of everyone having to implement their own thing - in the same vein that everyone isn't expected to be able to correctly implement cryptography.


quote:

FreeBSD and a lot of other software developers would still be dependent on the monoculture of GCC

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node
Not Found:ins:




Did you read what I posted, or just picked out a few phrases here and there? Because you're the one who asked.

EDIT: Or are you just being intentionally obtuse and refusing to acknowledge that even if somehow, magically, there was nothing but copyleft software as an alternative to proprietary software, there's still legal compliance which can and does affect whether or not any copyleft software can be used?

BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Nov 26, 2021

mycophobia
May 7, 2008



happy thanksgiving folks. im thankful for linux, and especially for the folks at the debian project for making the best linux

mystes
May 31, 2006



I'm grateful for not having to read long BSD posts.

sb hermit
Dec 13, 2016






apple provided CUPS, which is not terrible

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


mycophobia posted:

happy thanksgiving folks. im thankful for linux, and especially for the folks at the debian project for making the best linux

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011



in the BSD world, backporting your changes, improvements and bugfixes is a courtesy thing and not a legal thing.

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010



jesus wept

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


BlankSystemDaemon posted:

Did you read what I posted, or just picked out a few phrases here and there? Because you're the one who asked.

EDIT: Or are you just being intentionally obtuse and refusing to acknowledge that even if somehow, magically, there was nothing but copyleft software as an alternative to proprietary software, there's still legal compliance which can and does affect whether or not any copyleft software can be used?

I obviously read every word. Personally I think it's really lovely of apple they can't even toss $5 or $10k to the freebsd foundation annually. Microsoft still does.

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull


BlankSystemDaemon posted:

Then there's the parts of the kernel, where there are three "big" uses: the netstack (as mentioned elsewhere, because it really has been used widely), the process model, and the VFS.

fyi the process model is mach tasks, not bsd

they hide a lot of it underneath more abstract libraries, including ones which provide traditional unix interfaces, but mach IPC primitives and the mach process (task) model are the base layer for a lot of stuff in macOS

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SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003


I've been hit by the onerous requirements of the GPL myself. Once I distributed an easy to install .deb with a single line change to acpid for a lovely chromebook with a broken lid switch. I provided a .diff instead of the full source.

I did three folk dances, and spent five days unshaved and unshowered. It was all forgiven.

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