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Antigravitas
Dec 8, 2019

Die Rettung fuer die Landwirte:
FWIW, plasmashell can recover from dying without nuking the whole session. I think it's kwin that is critical, but I haven't had a kwin_wayland crash in ages. Plasmashell is still wonky in some places, but a crash recovers within a second.

Wayland can do some pretty cool things and most people (who work in the space) agree it just has to happen. It's just the nature of how important desktop features come up so late in its adoption that leads to mockery.

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Share Bear
Apr 27, 2004

ah xfce is not on it yet, not completely

A Bad King
Jul 17, 2009

When I learned that X11 has been on version 11 since before I was born, very much before I was a wee lad tinkering with Mac OS 7 on a Macintosh TV (it was a Macintosh! With a TV tuner inside it!), I felt that someone forgot to add a 1 to the version number at some point and everyone just collectively said "yeah sure, version 11," all the way until the whole thing almost keeled over at some point in the mid-aughts. Like, they got to 11 in three years and stuck with it?

Why are the computer people still flame warring on ICQ so weird about their open source things like that? X11 version 7 point 9. They even got Tim Apple doing it with MacOS 10.

A Bad King fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Mar 27, 2023

A Bad King
Jul 17, 2009

I think Windows has been on version 6 for a while, too? idk.

mystes
May 31, 2006

x11r6 is just a fossilized thing for compatibility like user agent strings. You aren't actually using x11r6, you're using a specific version of x.org which has actual version numbers

FlapYoJacks
Feb 12, 2009

As a long and flowing gray-beard linux user who deals with embedded Linux: Wayland is fine.

mystes
May 31, 2006

I think wayland is good (although weird in some ways; I feel like too much may have been left to the compositor layer) but I'm still not using it yet because I'm hoping that 100% of the issues will be worked out by the time I switch

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005

i'm on x11 for my day job as well, but it is undeniable that 90% of what x11 does was obsolete and dumb when it was new. some heroic work has been done to drag it along, and i am a *huge* fan of compatibility, keep the thing that works working, but you'd be a fool to have any *love* for x11. wayland is not fully there yet, but it is for sure a *desirable* future once they get it to the point of previously working things working. which seems mostly very close.

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull

mystes posted:

x11r6 is just a fossilized thing for compatibility like user agent strings. You aren't actually using x11r6, you're using a specific version of x.org which has actual version numbers

x11 is hardly just a user agent string, it's the protocol spoken between the x.org server and client applications. given all its deficiencies it's a real problem that the last major revision took place in the 1980s

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
X11 stopped being revised when everybody started using MIT-SHM to draw window contents themselves instead of using X11's crappy not-even-PostScript drawing primitives and font rendering commands.

Wayland formalizes this status quo and removes the rendering API that nobody was using, but they also added some inter-application isolation as well. Which is all well and good in theory but it has absolutely zero security impact, because to be able to talk to X or Wayland in the first place an attacker has to be running arbitrary code on your machine and by that point you are already 2000 other different kinds of hosed.

mystes
May 31, 2006

BobHoward posted:

x11 is hardly just a user agent string, it's the protocol spoken between the x.org server and client applications. given all its deficiencies it's a real problem that the last major revision took place in the 1980s
I said "X11R6" not "x11". X11R6 was a version of X11 released in 1994 but tons of stuff refers to all versions of x11 as "X11R6" for historical reasons even though the x.org foundation took over control from the x consortium and has continued to release new versions like X11R7 since technically the x.org version numbering is a continuation of the same versioning scheme:

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

i still use X11 for synergy but that's the only reason

Athas
Aug 6, 2007

I have used Wayland since 2015 and it pretty much just works. Xwayland is pretty good and transparent too. I did lots of X11 programming in my youth and it loving sucked. Burn it all down.

FlapYoJacks
Feb 12, 2009

I remember back when X.org was forked from XFree86 and all the drama of Keith Packard being a colossal dumbass by shoving a bunch of code changes right before a release without consulting the entire development team and them revoking his push rights. :allears:

The_Franz
Aug 8, 2003

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj02_UeUnGQ

Soricidus
Oct 20, 2010
freedom-hating statist shill

Sapozhnik posted:

well yeah because you can't just restart the window server and expect all of the protocol state to survive. i think somebody is working on making it work but idk how that would work in the general case.

why is it necessary to nuke the window server just to reload the user interface?

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

Sapozhnik posted:

X11 stopped being revised when everybody started using MIT-SHM to draw window contents themselves instead of using X11's crappy not-even-PostScript drawing primitives and font rendering commands.

Wayland formalizes this status quo and removes the rendering API that nobody was using, but they also added some inter-application isolation as well. Which is all well and good in theory but it has absolutely zero security impact, because to be able to talk to X or Wayland in the first place an attacker has to be running arbitrary code on your machine and by that point you are already 2000 other different kinds of hosed.

To be pedantic they do not necessarily need to be running any code on your machine to talk to X :p that's sort of its point.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009
Also, unless you're a very special kind of nerd, your X is probably running as root.

Is wayland perfect? Nah.
Is it marginally better than the alternative? Getting there, for a good number of use-cases.

Beeftweeter
Jun 28, 2005


holy shit this os has cinepak?!?!?


wayland is pretty good

x11 is even pretty good, considering how drat old it is

mystes
May 31, 2006

feedmegin posted:

To be pedantic they do not necessarily need to be running any code on your machine to talk to X :p that's sort of its point.
If you expose x to the network in 2023 you probably deserve to be hacked or hired by lastpass or something

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
neither X nor a typical wayland compositor runs as root, it gets fds for the devices it needs delegated to it from logind and everything else can run "unprivileged"

and nothing that you care about protecting on a local desktop requires an attacker to get root

Beeftweeter
Jun 28, 2005


holy shit this os has cinepak?!?!?


yeah both of them specifically don't run as root lol

it's actually kind of an interesting experience running a distro in a termux container on android. for the most part root isn't at all necessary (although fakeroot/proot do help) and almost everything you'd expect to work does

that doesn't mean it's flawless of course but for a general user it's fine. most people itt would get frustrated by it i think but you can use something like magisk to authenticate anyway

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eschaton
Mar 7, 2007

Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?
I have a working NCD 17c with the LK201-style keyboard and a correspondingly early NCD-labeled Logitech serial mouse, itís got the full 8MB of RAM too

I need to burn some ROMs so I can boot straight to the X server instead of over the network, but eventually I expect to do that anyway since I want to build new code for it

I should also start planning out how to hook up the logic analyzer to capture the interaction with NVRAM to see what else MAME might need to do

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