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Last Chance posted:so if os x is bad and linux is better, then why is using any linux 100x more painful? bad / more painful for who and why? x86 linux is primarily used for three things:
average home users aren't on the map for most of the people working on linux stuff
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May 27, 2014 03:04
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Last Chance posted:so if os x is bad and linux is better, then why is using any linux 100x more painful? often even the most basic things like hardware accelerated video, multimonitor, wireless and sound don't work properly on linux. Nobody funds driver development for Linux systems. Windows is the only thing HW vendors write drivers for. Apple controls the hardware and does their own driver development. Please let me know how wireless and sound have failed on you recently. We do have an active networking team, and a few guys working on ALSA part-time (it's not all that much work, usually). Specifics of your networking and sound cards are extremely helpful. Multimonitor isn't really a big deal anymore since NVIDIA added support for XRandR, but let me know if there's anything hosed up. Sometimes there are some weird quirky features in DEs or apps that just weren't designed with multimonitor in mind. "HW accelerated video" is a thing with multiple meanings. You could be doing the entire H.264 decode on the HW, in which case you'd be having 1. drivers containing a 2. patent-encumbered codec, which is a double whammy. The more realistic option is doing colorspace conversion and YUV blending on HW. That's supported in gstreamer, but we can't use HW planes for doing pure HW blending effectively because "lol X11". There's no way to expose "hey, this is a YUV plane" to apps. Don't come to me with "but Xv!!!" It's poo poo and doesn't work. That's a Wayland-only feature. Until then, some apps can use libvdpau to do HW blending, but that's NVIDIA-specific.
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May 27, 2014 03:04
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:bad / more painful for who and why? I'm now allowed to say that Pixar runs on RHEL now. They've been a RHEL workstation customer for a long time. http://vimeo.com/90687696 There's their animation software running on RHEL. This is what all artists use internally.
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May 27, 2014 03:06
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Last Chance posted:and are we really defending ancient package managers and fuckin X11? this is truly a gem of a thread. ancient package managers >>>> no package manager also modern package managers look pretty much like SysV packaging from the early 90s. as it turns out there just aren't that many ways to skin a cat. re: X11 -- all my software is X11, and I want my software to work. I give less than zero fucks about how you feel about X11 technically. it could be the ugliest god drat thing ever written and it wouldn't matter a bit. not having good X11 support makes your unix a lovely unix Notorious b.s.d. fucked around with this message at 03:09 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 03:07
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Suspicious Dish posted:I'm now allowed to say that Pixar runs on RHEL now. They've been a RHEL workstation customer for a long time. i didn't know, but this doesn't surprise me. nvidia spends money on linux because a lot of legacy unix workstation stuff from the 00s gets moved to linux.
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May 27, 2014 03:08
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Wayland doesn't prevent that. Xwayland is a full backwards compatibility mode for legacy X11 apps.
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May 27, 2014 03:08
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Suspicious Dish posted:Wayland doesn't prevent that. Xwayland is a full backwards compatibility mode for legacy X11 apps. yeah I don't think this is actually gonna happen but the details are also not all that important. X11 has been implemented in half a dozen ways on various platforms, but legacy poo poo needs to work genuinely well and integrate with my desktop. osx tanks that test bigtime.
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May 27, 2014 03:10
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:i didn't know, but this doesn't surprise me. Right. Linux and NVIDIA have taken over the SGI / IRIX market from long ago. Pixar uses Maya, which started out IRIX and got ported to Linux. They also use (and secretly develop) CinePaint, that fork of GIMP from a long time ago. They also use GIMP sometimes as well, as well as other tools. I don't think there's anything else public that I'm allowed to talk about. The other half of it is that they want to reuse a large part of the code for Renderman in artist workstations, and if their render farm runs on RHEL, why not just make their workstations run on RHEL as well?
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May 27, 2014 03:14
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i get mad about this poo poo because i was really excited about osx-as-unix-workstation back in the day. apple fed the hysteria, too. they bought ads like this one in sci/tech/trade magazines back in 2002 running unix on a laptop was a shitshow. solaris x86 was half-abandoned and had no power management. linux was shithouse buggy. all four extant BSD forks had lousy hw support and no free 3d drivers osx really looked great. and then i actually got my hands on it. oh christ. what a disaster.
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May 27, 2014 03:16
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osx is excellent
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May 27, 2014 03:22
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p.s. i did try osx mountain lion with yos-approved homebrew. it's still a shitshow but boy howdy is it faster than those old g4s. also spotlight actually works (thank god, because the finder is poo poo)
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May 27, 2014 03:23
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yeah man i was all psyched for os x and then i saw the janked up AAA and i was like whew no thanks i'm going back to trusty old linux
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May 27, 2014 03:23
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aqua loving owned, bring it back imo
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May 27, 2014 03:23
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:yeah I don't think this is actually gonna happen but the details are also not all that important. its just xorg you moron
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May 27, 2014 03:25
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penus de milo posted:yeah man i was all psyched for os x and then i saw the janked up AAA and i was like whew no thanks i'm going back to trusty old linux the janky AAA is a more recent complaint from trying to support special snowflake scientists and engineers. the final solution at ($JOB - 1) was to give all the osx users vagrant VMs configured like servers because holy lol osx is a bitch
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May 27, 2014 03:25
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pram posted:its just xorg you moron there is a lot more to "good X11 support" than "does it run X.org." have fun using X11 apps on your osx desktop. it is not a pleasant experience
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May 27, 2014 03:26
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i can run xorg on windows, too, but i wouldn't recommend you rely on that as part of your software porting strategy for windows. it ain't nice
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May 27, 2014 03:27
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:there is a lot more to "good X11 support" than "does it run X.org." have fun using X11 apps on your osx desktop. it is not a pleasant experience Honest question: I haven't used X11.app on OS X. What are your frustrations? I'll make sure that the apps that you need work perfectly on Xwayland.
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May 27, 2014 03:28
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:there is a lot more to "good X11 support" than "does it run X.org." have fun using X11 apps on your osx desktop. it is not a pleasant experience 
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May 27, 2014 03:31
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Suspicious Dish posted:Honest question: I haven't used X11.app on OS X. What are your frustrations? I'll make sure that the apps that you need work perfectly on Xwayland. fd.o systray notifications/alerts iconizing copy/paste
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May 27, 2014 03:45
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fd.o systray will be supported as well as it is under current X11 desktops (i.e. not at all) notifications/alerts are DBus, have nothing to do with X11, and will continue to work. I assume by "iconizing" you just mean minimizing, and yes that will continue to work. Why wouldn't it? Copy/paste will work and be proxied across.
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May 27, 2014 03:48
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Suspicious Dish posted:fd.o systray will be supported as well as it is under current X11 desktops (i.e. not at all) iconizing and minimizing are related but different. don't ask me to explain, icccm is insane and i do not understand it. notifications/alerts are also done through x11 through icccm stuff i don't understand (window hinting?). dbus is not the only way to do it copy/paste is complicated as hell in x11 and yes the legacy modes still get used by real apps in the wild. e.g. primary/secondary selection, ring buffer
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May 27, 2014 03:53
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Let me know if you find an app that uses the SECONDARY selection. I've been looking. Iconization and minimization are technically different (think back to like NeXTSTEP or something with the icons in the bottom left) but they are treated as the exact same on most DEs. The only way to do a notification in X11 that I know of is _NET_WM_STATE_DEMANDS_ATTENTION, which is part of the EWMH, not the ICCCM, and simply means "make the taskbar button blink". Most DEs don't support that anymore because apps abused it way too much, but for the ones that do I see no reason why it wouldn't continue to work under Xwayland.
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May 27, 2014 04:00
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Suspicious Dish posted:Let me know if you find an app that uses the SECONDARY selection. I've been looking. Suspicious Dish posted:Iconization and minimization are technically different (think back to like NeXTSTEP or something with the icons in the bottom left) but they are treated as the exact same on most DEs. coincidentally i learned about the difference the hard way while using a nextstep-lookalike, wmaker  (nextstep was actually really nice to use @ 1024x768. it was just a really bad unix. so, uh, a legion of clones for good unix turned up)
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May 27, 2014 04:01
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Emacs has not used the SECONDARY selection since like 1999.
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May 27, 2014 04:04
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Suspicious Dish posted:Emacs has not used the SECONDARY selection since like 1999. nope all that stuff is still there and working and i guarantee you some spergs will get mad
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May 27, 2014 04:04
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lol
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May 27, 2014 04:10
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Suspicious Dish posted:Honest question: I haven't used X11.app on OS X. What are your frustrations? I'll make sure that the apps that you need work perfectly on Xwayland. Suspicious Dish posted:fd.o systray will be supported as well as it is under current X11 desktops (i.e. not at all)
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May 27, 2014 04:18
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:i get mad about this poo poo because i was really excited about osx-as-unix-workstation back in the day. apple fed the hysteria, too. they bought ads like this one in sci/tech/trade magazines same, bought a mac for this ten years ago. had the ipod not taken off and led apple into a consumer revival it might have continued down this path. as time went on the money was more with basic end users not professionals so it's understandable they'd concentrate on their disposable income instead of greybeards. apple does the basic stuff really well and although mac os annoys me in almost every way i'd recommend it to my family members in a heartbleed.
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May 27, 2014 04:21
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the internet was invented on nextstep. osx has a noble and righteous lineage
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May 27, 2014 04:23
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the prince of posix
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May 27, 2014 04:26
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gabensraum posted:same, bought a mac for this ten years ago. i'm sure osx is fine for checking your non-exchange email or whatever. it is decidedly not-fine as a unix workstation replacement.
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May 27, 2014 04:33
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it actually is
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May 27, 2014 04:34
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Suspicious Dish posted:Let me know if you find an app that uses the SECONDARY selection. I've been looking. it's been a while but gvim used to do some weird poo poo with PRIMARY and CLIPBOARD that I never really got it. maybe it has something to do with me messing with setxkbmap at the time, I'll try to look at this again eventually to see if now I fully understand how X deals with copy/paste. I just know I hate it.
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May 27, 2014 04:34
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:i'm sure osx is fine for checking your non-exchange email or whatever. i dont think it is meant to be a unix workstation replacement its a unix based computer that hides it a lot but if you live/work in a unix world its sure a lot easier to use the shell in vs. a CP/M derivative machine
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May 27, 2014 04:37
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os x is a pile of poo poo and its authentication and user poo poo is retarded as all loving hell i tell this story again and again but a few years back i found out that os x was literally leaking auth tokens across users on the same machine
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May 27, 2014 04:37
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Sniep posted:i dont think it is meant to be a unix workstation replacement it was, until it wasn't. apple doesn't really give a poo poo about business users.
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May 27, 2014 04:38
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:it was, until it wasn't. apple doesn't really give a poo poo about business users. they really don't care about any segment of the non-consumer markets and our "designers" are finally realizing this after being poo poo on for the past 2-3 cycles
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May 27, 2014 04:39
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apple has tried to sell unix servers three times all three times they were discontinued suddenly with no notice and no migration path
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May 27, 2014 04:40
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funny computar
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May 27, 2014 04:55
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