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linux is good op
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Mar 21, 2014 07:31
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2025 06:25 |
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Linux is fun and exciting and that's why I work on it full-time! ... and also why I'm posting from a Windows 7 machine right now.
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Mar 21, 2014 08:10
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Mar 21, 2014 08:11
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spankmeister posted:Redhat ship teh rhel 7 OK.
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Mar 21, 2014 08:27
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Arch is bad and you shouldn't use it. I technically work on Fedora, but it's loving awful and I wish it didn't exist. Like one of my coworkers is working on such advanced system features as "atomic system upgrades that actually work" and "nightly test builds". http://rpm-ostree.cloud.fedoraproject.org/#/ It seems the builds currently aren't working because of a libguestfs bug preventing the images from being made? Ugh. I poked my coworker and it seems he knows about it and isn't sure what to do. He can't seem to reproduce the bug locally. http://rpm-ostree.cloud.fedoraproject.org/builds/2014/03/01/1/smoketest/ Here's an old build that shows off the system. Right now it only boots it and makes sure it gets to a valid state, but in the future we want to run automated tests that click around the system and fuzzes things and does an infinitely number of tests like "run KDE through Wayland in Hebrew and connected through bridge networking" testing all the edge cases basically. All package managers are terrible. yum is the worst program I've ever used, and nobody seems to care. dnf is faster, but it still crashes and incomprehensibly weird sometimes. Today it couldn't download any .rpm on the server even though I could right-click on the URL it was downloading and curl it in myself. But since I installed the package from a file instead of fetching from a repo, that means I'll never get updates for it, unless I pass some really dumb flag to it.
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Mar 21, 2014 14:55
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Correct. We've tried to fix this situation multiple times. Really, the core idea about packages is just wrong and bad. Packages have shell scripts that run as root when you install them, and you wouldn't believe the idiotic things that actually go in them that are running on your system as root when you type "yum install butts" or "rpm -Uvh butts.rpm". There's also some infighting between my team ("Desktop Experience") and the team that makes yum/abrt/dnf ("Developer Experience"). One of my coworkers wrote a thing called PackageKit, realized that yum is slow and bad and in order to do things like "search for this package name", you have to take a global lock and it takes around 3 minutes. So, he wrote his own little yum-clone using libhawkey and libsolv. You know, the things that dnf is using. He didn't want anybody to think it was a serious project, just a little toy backend, so he named it "Zero-Insertion Force" as if to say "I am not trying to get anybody to use it". https://github.com/hughsie/zif People on DevExperience team claimed he should be fired for trying to replace him, and for even thinking of besmirching the holy name of yum, because clearly yum is perfect and there are no issues with it. You don't even want to know what happened with razor: https://github.com/krh/razor
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Mar 21, 2014 15:29
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Mr Dog posted:maybe you guys should use apt instead I'm saying that the traditional way to provision a system using packages is broken and wrong, since it involves a lot of client-side shell scripts running as root, and is slow. APT/DEB has the exact same issues. pacman has the exact same issues. zypper has the exact same issues. All package managers are built on this really broken philosophy. Given the restriction of "install all these packages", it's hard to produce a useful, fast autobuilder that works correctly. So it sucks, but unless you do a drastic rethink, it's the way it's going to be.
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Mar 21, 2014 15:32
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Mr Dog posted:jeez. Half the fun is figuring out who will get the next batch of death threats! We actually have an internal betting pool about which project will blow up next.
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Mar 21, 2014 15:40
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my artisanal tiling window manager
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wait a minute
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Mar 21, 2014 15:40
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what the gently caress is wrong with our company
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Mar 21, 2014 15:41
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:gnome 3 is terrible and you should transfer to a team where your work is meaningful to other people, e.g. actual users in the field and not hypothetical grandmas who love "activities" OK.
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Mar 21, 2014 16:02
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:this is a genuinely new idea on packaging but i am not at all certain it is a good one. in fact i am pretty sure it is crap. but it's fascinating and y'all should read it NixOS was an inspiration for OSTree. https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/OSTree https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/OSTree/NixOSComparison http://blog.verbum.org/2014/01/21/ostree-in-action-rpm-ostree-and-switching-trees/ http://blog.verbum.org/2014/01/27/giving-a-name-to-your-root-filesystem/ http://blog.verbum.org/2014/02/26/ostree-rigorous-and-reliable-deployment/
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Mar 21, 2014 16:04
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Mr Dog posted:oh sure let's turn the entire filesystem into a massive chunk of global state that can only run one application at a time Hm? How does OSTree do that? Mr Dog posted:and also automatically diff-merge completely arbitrarily in /etc with no awareness of what's in there whatsoever You also misunderstand the purpose of the /etc merge. This page explains it a bit better: http://blog.verbum.org/2014/01/24/why-ostree-requires-usretc/ https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/OSTree/EverythingInEtcIsABug It never does a content merge. It simply picks one of the three files wholesale. The long-term goal is to have only administrator overrides in /etc. You should be able to boot a system without any /etc at all. Obviously, right now that's not possible, but OSTree ships a patch to turn /etc/passwd into /usr/share/passwd. Really, with the UsrMerge, we've been moving to a fun new world:
Ideally, all configuration should be in dropfile folders e.g. /etc/foo.conf.d/. That's a lot more composable than trying to merge a giant configuration file rebased onto upstream. https://developer.gnome.org/ostree/2014.2/layout.html
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Mar 21, 2014 16:16
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Mr Dog posted:why would you want /usr/share/passwd though? local accounts are site-specific configuration, and you kinda need to have at least one regular user (non-root) account on a system in order to do anything useful with it and still have at least marginally better security than windows xp. i thought /usr/share is for immutable resources used by applications anyway, is there going to be a preset list of system accounts? i guess you'd need to patch nss to have a hierarchical /etc/passwd resolution in that case. /etc/passwd still exists for locally added accounts. Again, /etc/ is for site-specific configuration only. The system should not ship an /etc/passwd, it should be created when you add your first account. For things like daemons which need their own users because they write their own files, that's what /usr/lib/passwd is for (I was wrong, it wasn't in /usr/share/, but there's really no difference between /usr/lib/ and /usr/share/). Whether there's a root account in either /usr/lib/passwd or /etc/passwd is up to the system builder.
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Mar 21, 2014 16:50
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And yes, we need to patch glibc. https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16142
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Mar 21, 2014 16:50
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spankmeister posted:I loving hate that kind of poo poo. I just want to have to look in one file, now it's two because it's "site specific"? gently caress that noise, 1 passwd file is absolutely fine. /etc/nsswitch.conf already fucks you up by making it flexible and dynamic so your user accounts can be done over with. To me, it makes perfect sense to separate out users that are actually users from users that are implementation details of the system. And if you uninstall httpd, it doesn't try to read your /etc/passwd configuration automatically, it just generates a new "system" one. Notorious b.s.d. posted:the /etc and /usr/etc distinction is valuable and should have been done long ago in conventional package systems Correct.
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Mar 21, 2014 16:56
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Shaggar posted:the Linux filesystem layout is stupid Agreed. That's why we're fixing it.
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Mar 21, 2014 16:57
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:files make bad databases, merging them is a pain in the rear end Don't edit config files from a script. augeas is the kind of distorted thinking that UNIX breeds. Dropfiles are excellent and don't require parsing config files.
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Mar 21, 2014 16:58
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Windows 95 was a great operating system, developed by a talented crew who had a really good idea for good user interface design. 20 years later, most Linux users and developers haven't learned from the basic principles that made Windows 95 usable. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2004/04/26/120193.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2003/08/16/54648.aspx
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Mar 21, 2014 17:48
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And this is the part where Notorious B.S.D takes the bait to tell me how much GNOME 3 sucks.
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Mar 21, 2014 17:48
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:no, i am pretty sure you figured out the cruel irony for yourself I've asked you many times what you think is wrong with GNOME 3 and you've never been able to give me any feedback. I've actually gotten more useful feedback from Shaggar.
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Mar 21, 2014 18:43
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:you know, those win95 metaphors that were tailored to users and not to someone's platonic ideal of god knows what I was praising Windows 95 for its adherence to a user research methodology rather than sticking to some dogma about what worked in the past.
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Mar 21, 2014 19:24
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I'm sure exactly 0 people use OS X, iOS or Android because it does not work the way Windows does.
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Mar 21, 2014 19:26
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:osx ui is also loving terrible "OS X confuses me because I have a giant beard and am reluctant to learn anything new"
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Mar 21, 2014 19:32
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Window managers are hell for many reasons, but I'm curious: what features from Windows or otherwise would you like in our window manager? I'm doing a large-scale refactoring of our WM this cycle to clean up the Wayland support, so features will be quicker to add.
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Mar 21, 2014 19:42
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Shaggar posted:altho for Linux I would suggest you start by adding font rendering that doesn't look like garbage. Let me know when you are seeing bad font rendering. We recently heavily improved the freetype autohinter, and so there's a few regressions here and there. Screenshots go a long way. Shaggar posted:also hire someone to fix your icons. their all gross. We hired four of them. They make some pretty great icons now. http://jimmac.musichall.cz/#icons Shaggar posted:also I just got a little booklet for redhate training. can you take me off your mailing list? thanks. All the mailing lists we manage internally have an unsubscribe button at the bottom. If it doesn't work, forward it to me at jasper@redhat.com . That usually means one of our marketing partners hosed up again. We have strict rules about no spamming.
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Mar 21, 2014 19:56
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infernal machines posted:gesture controlled window/tab picker (ala expose) and alt-tab style window switching with gestures would make things a lot quicker to navigate Expose has been part of GNOME3 since the beginning.
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Mar 21, 2014 19:57
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Mind expanding on that? What issues are you having with it?
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Mar 21, 2014 20:06
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infernal machines posted:brilliantly designed, and easy to understand: Both look OK and easy to understand to me. infernal machines posted:and these two, photos, gallery? are they the same thing? who knows? He did two different Photos icons for two different customers.
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Mar 21, 2014 20:11
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infernal machines posted:chunky/jittery animation Honest question: what GPU are you using? Most of the performance issues we've seen are actually a combination of vsync and a bad GPU performance governor, namely Intel chips. Gory details over here: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=719368#c13 infernal machines posted:missed clicks, jumping windows at times. This absolutely shouldn't happen. I've never seen it myself. If you are interested in it at all and can manage to reproduce, please let me know and I'll try to track it down. infernal machines posted:it also didn't seem to actually support gestures the last time i tried it, but that was a while ago now. Yeah, gestures support is something that's a long-time coming. We've tried really really hard to add it to Xorg, but we've just sunk in a bunch of code and bad ideas. This is one of those things that Wayland could fix for us. infernal machines posted:i also seem to remember it only handling programs, not tabs or sub windows There's no API for an application to render and expose multiple tabs as separate surfaces right now. We could add such a feature, but it would be hell to automatically hook up.
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Mar 21, 2014 20:28
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infernal machines posted:it doesn't break my workfow, because i just use os x for any *nix stuff i need, which supports all of what i mentioned and works with gestures. gestures are the key part though because having to use key combos to trigger the function or switch windows slows things down significantly, and is a big part of why it sucks on gnome. Are you talking about touch gestures or mouse gestures? What sort of gestures do you want?
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Mar 21, 2014 20:28
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At least on my Windows 7 machine, it doesn't show all tabs as popups in the superbar. I remember that it used to, but I think they dropped that feature. infernal machines posted:touch gestures, although if it can be implemented in a sane way with mouse gestures, i'd love to see it. Yeah, as I said, XI2 and WM gestures are nearly impossible from a code perspective. It stems from the whole "oh we should support every possible use case and combination" and when we try to write the code it just gets stuck and hangs. We genuinely tried and wrote code, though. It might be a bit out of date, but here's our current design for gestures: https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/OS/Gestures Does that look OK to you? I don't think it's gotten any feedback yet, so it's in no way set in stone.
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Mar 21, 2014 20:40
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oval office AND PASTE posted:it took years for support to show up in firefox, it still wasn't enabled by default, and it didn't work when i enabled it. i haven't used windows in six months, maybe it's changed since then. but windows 7 was 2009 and if it took them until 2014 to turn this feature on, i can't imagine it's a trivial thing that any app can just turn on It used to be on by default, but it meant that clicking on the giant Firefox icon to switch to Firefox didn't work. I hated that feature when it was on.
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Mar 21, 2014 20:41
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Mr Dog posted:please add a WM hint indicating that a program is a terminal, then make Alt-Tab in GNOME 3 treat each terminal as a separate application. A terminal isn't a We sort of already did this, but it was controversial so it was reverted: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=695010 Mr Dog posted:also i really wish that Alt+Tab wouldn't cross virtual desktops because that kind of defeats the entire point of isolating your ~*workflows*~ like that in the first place (no i don't want to cycle through all 30 programs i currently have open, i hate that poo poo in windows), but the gnome 3 people seem pretty dead set on keeping it that way so i guess i'll have to make do with hoping somebody puts this in an extension. $ gsettings set org.gnome.shell.app-switcher current-workspace-only true If you use the built-in window switcher instead (it's a separate keybinding in Settings, check on the Keyboard and set it so that Alt+Tab is for Switch Windows rather than Switch Applications), then: $ gsettings set org.gnome.shell.window-switcher current-workspace-only true Workspaces actually have two different sets of use cases. We discussed this for a full day, and I wrote a bug comment about it: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=660502#c13 Mr Dog posted:(I read the metacity wayland branch commit logs when I'm bored. I'm pretty sure I'm the most pathetic person itt metacity is being ported to wayland?
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Mar 21, 2014 20:51
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Mr Dog posted:put it this way Alternate Tab is far and away the most popular extension on e.g.o and there's a reason for that. Yeah, it's built-in to the core now. In fact, all the extension does now is just swap around those keybindings and give you easy access to the settings.
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Mar 21, 2014 20:51
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USSMICHELLEBACHMAN posted:hey man, it looks like you left your source open. i went ahead and closed it for you. be more careful! Whoops, sorry about that. Thanks for the help!
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Mar 21, 2014 20:52
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Mr Dog posted:mutter, sorry. I make a lot of commits.
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Mar 21, 2014 21:00
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:
No, I'm not going to give you a custom scripting language so you can determine what windows are in what taskbars on what workspaces. Or, if I am going to give you a scripting language for that, it will be JavaScript. Support for above/below, and sticky window support still exists, and it's still supported. There are keyboard shortcuts and they're in the right-click menu for every window on the titlebar. Separate horizontal / vertical maximize was long considered a mistake, and we don't support it anymore, for a variety of reasons I could tell you about. This was not a GNOME decision. Most other environments don't support it either. I'd be happy to tell you why, but something tells me you're going to say something about how everybody is an idiot, and then go off into the distance again.
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Mar 21, 2014 21:03
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Genuinely honest, I don't use workspaces. They never fit into my workflow. So I'm not very familiar with the workspace code, or the arguments for/against them or why people are mad. I'll relay the feedback to people who are more familiar with it.
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Mar 21, 2014 21:09
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2025 06:25 |
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Sham bam bamina! posted:"my arm hurts when i move it" Yeah, oval office AND PASTE's argument is really bad and I hope that nobody actually thinks that's what we're saying here.
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Mar 21, 2014 21:10
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