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Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Ur Getting Fatter posted:

installed the linux

tried to update my graphics driver on the linux

the linux would not start

help how do I get good at the linux?

don't install 3rd party drivers

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Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

USSMICHELLEBACHMAN posted:

install osx

install homebrew

do everything you'd do in linux but replace the commands 'apt-get' or 'yum' or 'pacman' with 'brew'

brew is poo poo soup

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Greed is eternal posted:

install windows

install cygwin

do everything you'd do in linux but replace the commands 'apt-get' or 'yum' or 'pacman' with a nice GUI

cygwin is also poo poo soup but for totally different reasons

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

there are still several linux magazines published in tyool 2014

because linux users will actually pay money for poo poo to help them do their jobs better

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Ur Getting Fatter posted:

yes I tried to activate filthy closed source drivers and the linux gods punished me

nouveau actually works now so use that

unless you want to play videogames. but nobody plays videogames on linux. so use the open source drivers

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Sweevo posted:

its hilarious the way they still try to make out that linux is some sort of "windows killer".

that issue is from 2000, when people actually believed that for some reason

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

pointsofdata posted:

whats up with iceweasel

mozilla is a dick about trademarks

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene
packages are really bad and dumb and still somehow far and away the best way to do anything. rpm and deb and pacman and whatever other flavor of the week bullshit you're using are all fundamentally very similar to svr4 packaging from 1990. this is not an accident.

no one has had any good ideas since then

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene
this is a genuinely new idea on packaging but i am not at all certain it is a good one. in fact i am pretty sure it is crap. but it's fascinating and y'all should read it

http://www.andres-loeh.de/NixOS.pdf

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Suspicious Dish posted:

Half the fun is figuring out who will get the next batch of death threats! We actually have an internal betting pool about which project will blow up next.

gnome 3 is terrible and you should transfer to a team where your work is meaningful to other people, e.g. actual users in the field and not hypothetical grandmas who love "activities"

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

this is very cool

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

quote:

I sometimes describe OSTree as being even more rigorous than traditional dpkg/rpm type package systems. Now, there are some of you out there who probably canít imagine how thatís possible. You found packaging so tedious and painful that you gave up, and you now write Go code (because Google wrote it, it must be good, right?) and you hack on your MacBook from a coffee shop, and when youíre ready scp your statically linked binary to staging and then to production. Maybe you donít even have staging. Itís so simple! Look how fast it is!

this is my current boss

and also nearly every person i ever worked with at a startup

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene
the /etc and /usr/etc distinction is valuable and should have been done long ago in conventional package systems

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

spankmeister posted:

I loving hate that kind of poo poo. I just want to have to look in one file, now it's two because it's "site specific"? gently caress that noise, 1 passwd file is absolutely fine.

files make bad databases, merging them is a pain in the rear end

if you ever need to edit config files from a script, and you don't use augeas, i will come to your home and damage your personal property

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Shaggar posted:

the Linux filesystem layout is stupid

yeah %SYSTEMROOT%/system32 makes way more sense than /bin, i'm glad microsoft cleared that up for all of us

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

USSMICHELLEBACHMAN posted:

linux is the bitcoin of the 90s

it really was. people were super-excited about linux desktops killing off windows.

meanwhile, linux actually did kill off commercial unix. just fuckin steamrolled it. for some reason, this did not make a lot of magazine covers.

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

The Management posted:

windows 95 was entirely unusable with 4 MB of ram. 8 was a thrashfest, 16 was the point where it could actually switch between multiple programs without waiting 5 minutes

yeah he was conflating two eras.

there was legitimate competition between unix workstations and windows in the like 1990-1995 time frame.

for $5k you could buy a pc that ran windows 3.0 and loving flew, just an insanely fast system with great responsiveness.

for the same $5k, you could buy a unix desktop with literally 5x the CPU power. and it would take a half hour to boot. and another half hour to load a word processor. and 60 seconds every time you alt-tabbed.

unix didn't win

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Suspicious Dish posted:

Windows 95 was a great operating system, developed by a talented crew who had a really good idea for good user interface design.

20 years later, most Linux users and developers haven't learned from the basic principles that made Windows 95 usable.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2004/04/26/120193.aspx
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2003/08/16/54648.aspx

Suspicious Dish posted:

And this is the part where Notorious B.S.D takes the bait to tell me how much GNOME 3 sucks.

no, i am pretty sure you figured out the cruel irony for yourself

i guess i still gotta spell it out for everyone else: praising windows 95 and quoting the old new thing while actively working on a desktop that defies user expectations and omits critical features from windows 95 is pretty loving lol

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Suspicious Dish posted:

I've asked you many times what you think is wrong with GNOME 3 and you've never been able to give me any feedback. I've actually gotten more useful feedback from Shaggar.

where's the taskbar?
where is the fd.o notification area?

you know, those win95 metaphors that were tailored to users and not to someone's platonic ideal of god knows what

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene
the other reason i don't comment very much on gnome 3's concrete failures is that i no longer give a poo poo. the birthing process was so god drat ugly that there's very little reason to revisit old decisions. i don't have a list of all the reasons it was bad, but it was so loving terrible it drove me away from software i had been using for a decade

i abandoned the platform entirely. there is exactly one gtk app i still use, and it's gtk2.

this is true of everyone else i know, and go figure, as an old timey unix systems guy i know a lot of fuckin unix desktop users. they're not on gnome anymore

edit: oh yeah i forgot to mention. someone closed the bug i was interested in for gtk3. i don't know if they actually fixed it, but they closed it, deciding it was no longer relevant. four years to maybe-fix a bug ain't bad, right? (i am not going to install a gtk3 application in order to find out if it's fixed.)

Notorious b.s.d. fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Mar 21, 2014

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Suspicious Dish posted:

I was praising Windows 95 for its adherence to a user research methodology rather than sticking to some dogma about what worked in the past.

i admire your parsimony but it's not helpful here

unfortunately it's no longer 1995, and there is now a userbase of literal billions of people who expect things to work in a certain way. you're not working on fresh canvas and you don't have hundreds of millions to spend on an ad campaign

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

infernal machines posted:

most of the old timey unix guys i've met are loving awful.

the kind of people that try to convince small businesses that sendmail and built-from-scratch freeBSD servers are the right choice for their ten person office. the hilarious part, is given the chance, they manage to gently caress that up too.

they're all "consultants" that haven't had a contract since the mid 90s and don't seem to realize that anything has changed.

i know at least two guys who fit this description perfectly

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Suspicious Dish posted:

I'm sure exactly 0 people use OS X, iOS or Android because it does not work the way Windows does.

osx ui is also loving terrible

but they have lots of money to convince people it's not. it amazes me anyone can put up with that bullshit for more than an hour

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Suspicious Dish posted:

Window managers are hell for many reasons, but I'm curious: what features from Windows or otherwise would you like in our window manager? I'm doing a large-scale refactoring of our WM this cycle to clean up the Wayland support, so features will be quicker to add.

  • configurable taskbar -- i want to be able to turn grouping on and off, choose which windows to be included in the list on a given workspace

  • pin above/below

  • pin to particular workspace or all workspaces

  • separate horizontal/vertical maximize shortcuts

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

oval office AND PASTE posted:

stop using tabs, use individual instances, spread them across workspaces (relevant to whatever you're working on in that space)

$5 says the response is "b-b-but that breaks ~my workflow~"

gently caress you

my workflow is what matters.

i give zero shits about how ~*~ elegant ~*~ the design is, or how much your grandma liked it in the lab. unless it is immediately and obviously better* than what I'm doing, it's poo poo and you can go gently caress yourself








* it will never, ever be immediate or obvious. so here's another way to put it: never break my workflow.

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Suspicious Dish posted:

No, I'm not going to give you a custom scripting language so you can determine what windows are in what taskbars on what workspaces. Or, if I am going to give you a scripting language for that, it will be JavaScript.

Support for above/below, and sticky window support still exists, and it's still supported. There are keyboard shortcuts and they're in the right-click menu for every window on the titlebar.

Separate horizontal / vertical maximize was long considered a mistake, and we don't support it anymore, for a variety of reasons I could tell you about. This was not a GNOME decision. Most other environments don't support it either. I'd be happy to tell you why, but something tells me you're going to say something about how everybody is an idiot, and then go off into the distance again.

kde 4 retains all of the features i just named. none of them require you to edit a config file or write a script, they are just in adv prefs dialogues.

because kde, to some extent, still cares about its actual users, the beardlord scientists and engineers. as opposed to the hypothetical casual users chased by unity and gnome. these people do not exist and i do not care about focus groups made from not-actual-users

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

oval office AND PASTE posted:

"hi i'd like to try a new desktop environment, wait, what do you mean it's different"

i never wanted to try a new environment, ever

gnome abruptly turned into a new environment without asking me

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

oval office AND PASTE posted:

here's a quick path back to 1997 for you: apt-get install mate

or i can use kde and have both new features and continuity with the past

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Suspicious Dish posted:

OK. Software moves on and newer versions are released. You can keep using GNOME 2, you just won't get updates. In the same way you can keep using Windows XP, you just won't get updates.

software is a living document, and an end to updates is a lingering death. nobody does new buildouts on windows xp, or advocates its use to their network, or builds new applications for xp-specific APIs.

here's the reason i continue to engage, suspicious dish: you seem like a smart guy who cares about the outcomes when you release software to users. your efforts are wasted on the "desktop experience" team. i hope you find work that is more meaningful for both you and the wider world. work that builds value for users, instead of confronting them with problems.

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

infernal machines posted:

yes, but unfortunately you'd be using kde.

i know you come from a commercial unix background, but come on, it's hideous.

i don't really care for the default carbon on black set against black embedded in infinite transparent darkness, no.

i'm just way too lazy to figure out theming

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene
idk how hard it is to theme kde to be unoffensive.

it is probably worth it

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Symbolic Butt posted:

ok I installed ubuntu gnome today so I can take a look at gnome 3, first thing I look at these updates after I just installed it and




what

ubuntu is loving terrible. you could literally not have done worse.

as much as i hate gnome 3, i am pretty sure you did not give it a fair shake

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Symbolic Butt posted:

*sigh* ok tomorrow I'll try fedora geez

just as a reminder.

good linux, like people actually use to make money and not be laughed at:
  • rhel
  • centos
  • sles

middlin' linux, like beardos like on their desktops:
  • debian
  • fedora

crap linux is everything else. ubuntu earns a special place in hell though. it is literally the worst of the worst. it's a bait-and-switch, they promise you one thing and you get another. at least gentoo and arch are exactly what they claim to be

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

infernal machines posted:

so basically you're hosed, you can't make a consistent DE because the distos can just break it with whatever hackjob they decide to ship

this is why linux on the desktop doesn't work. there are a million different implementations of everything, users can't just grab one and go because they have no way of knowing what will be broken by any given distro. and there's always something broken.

no, it works fine on every sane linux

ubuntu is just dogshit in a pressure cooker. you literally cannot find a worse distribution. it is a clusterfuck in every way, from every angle

think about this: i was just put in the position of defending gtk 3

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Symbolic Butt posted:

I've been using ubuntu and debian exclusively for idk how long. in my home mostly ubuntu with awesomewm because I didn't care really. like infernal machines said, I never dist-upgrade lol

I think the last time I saw ubuntu break REALLY HARD was in 2007 because of some xorg update shenanigan

so anyway I finally decided to try new stuff because I wanna be a hip linix person

ubuntu is broken the moment you enable universe/multiverse. the non-canonical repos are a shitshow of unpatched and/or hilariously broken "community" packages that replace debian packages at random. of course, all the software people actually want to use is in those known-bad repos

result: as a ubuntu user, your system is riddled with security holes and breakage from day one.

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene
"long term support" is a laughable idea in a distribution where 95% of the packages are permanently unsupported and six months old on release day

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene
oh yeah, the best part, i almost forgot: universe/multiverse are enabled by default

ubuntu is broken and unsupportable out of the box

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

ShadowHawk posted:

The second exception is the pulseaudio patches I apply to Wine. This is a fairly significant change. Upstream does not believe in them and has been doing a sound rework for years and years and it still doesn't work as a native pulse backend, which is absolutely needed by some users I've met firsthand (and generally appreciated by all users, somewhat regular complaints about wine sound dropping have basically disappeared since I did this move).

yeah this is the kind of thing i'm talking about when i say the community repos are full of random bullshit

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Suspicious Dish posted:

Ah, cool. The last time I fiddled around with winetricks was 2009 or so.

And yeah, if an upstream maintainer says "well do that downstream", sure, apply those patches. We also apply winepulse in Fedora as well. The sound API rewrite has been going on for centuries.

I'm more talking about stuff like this: http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/dhcp.git/tree/

where we effectively have our own fork of dhcpcd and nobody actually cares enough to try to get the ISC to take those patches.

context is important. when red hat does something funny to upstream, whatever red hat is doing is now the standard.

when some fuckwit with a launchpad.net account does something funny, it's just another way ubuntu is broken.

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Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Suspicious Dish posted:

http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/wine.git/tree/wine-pulse-1.7.11.patch

we apply the exact same patch that they do. it's broken for them, but also the standard?

yep.

gee it's funny how being the only vendor who matters vs a bored hobbyist changes the context!

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