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Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

maybe you guys should use apt instead

also are you saying fedora's autobuilders suck or rh's package management tools suck or both?

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Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

jeez.

also how do you maintain motivation to work on wayland and gnome and whatever else it is you desktop guys do when 80% of the peanut gallery flings poo poo at anything invented after 1985

:qq: my artisanal tiling window manager :qq:

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost


oh sure let's turn the entire filesystem into a massive chunk of global state that can only run one application at a time and also automatically diff-merge completely arbitrarily in /etc with no awareness of what's in there whatsoever

this doesn't sound like the most brittle pile of poo poo in the world

oh yeah let's also turn everything into massive monolithic one-size-fits-all images full of bloat applications written for like gtk1 ten years ago just scattered around wherever.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

oh don't get me wrong the fhs refinements are definitely nice. / vs /usr and /sbin vs /bin distinctions are completely arbitrary and it's funny watching people bending backwards to retroactively contrive justifications for them when the real reason /usr exists is because that was the original name for /home and some influential unixbeards just ran out of space in their system drive and started putting poo poo in the home drive instead. but no it's "unix system resources" apparently.

why would you want /usr/share/passwd though? local accounts are site-specific configuration, and you kinda need to have at least one regular user (non-root) account on a system in order to do anything useful with it and still have at least marginally better security than windows xp. i thought /usr/share is for immutable resources used by applications anyway, is there going to be a preset list of system accounts? i guess you'd need to patch nss to have a hierarchical /etc/passwd resolution in that case.

Sapozhnik fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Mar 21, 2014

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

windows steamrolled commercial unix too. $1,000 PCs with 4MB of RAM that could absolutely crush $20,000 SPARCs with 16MB were one hell of a competitive advantage back when Windows 95 came out. It was an abomination but Windows 95 was also Microsoft's greatest technical triumph.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

Suspicious Dish posted:

Window managers are hell for many reasons, but I'm curious: what features from Windows or otherwise would you like in our window manager? I'm doing a large-scale refactoring of our WM this cycle to clean up the Wayland support, so features will be quicker to add.

please add a WM hint indicating that a program is a terminal, then make Alt-Tab in GNOME 3 treat each terminal as a separate application. A terminal isn't a program free-standing application, it's a frame for free-standing applications, they don't have anything to do with each other so there's no reason at all to group them with Alt+`. Same applies to web browsers these days, they're frames for collections of unrelated programs. I notice you've got a hardcoded list of known terminal programs already as a temporary workaround with a view to adding such a hint in the future anyway so I guess that might be one more thing to key off that hint, but I guess you'd need signoff from the UX guys to do that.

also i really wish that Alt+Tab wouldn't cross virtual desktops because that kind of defeats the entire point of isolating your ~*workflows*~ like that in the first place (no i don't want to cycle through all 30 programs i currently have open, i hate that poo poo in windows), but the gnome 3 people seem pretty dead set on keeping it that way so i guess i'll have to make do with hoping somebody puts this in an extension.

(I read the metacity wayland branch commit logs when I'm bored. I'm pretty sure I'm the most pathetic person itt :shobon: )

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

put it this way Alternate Tab is far and away the most popular extension on e.g.o and there's a reason for that.

e: er, or was

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

Suspicious Dish posted:

metacity is being ported to wayland?

mutter, sorry.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

being able to d&d entire workspaces up and down the stack would be p handy too

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

kde is offensively ugly, that's the main reason i don't use it

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

there's themes and then there's lovely layout and padding

unpadded buttons are just :barf: kde's ugliness isn't something a lick of paint can fix

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

what's so bad about arch anyway? it seems like they more or less save you the trouble of compiling poo poo from scratch and otherwise get out of your way.

the advent of systemd erased a lot of "distribution" bullshit and homogenised a lot of trivial arbitrary poo poo to be the same across all linuxes, which is worth it even before you get into the whole reliable scriptable service management and queryable syslog thing.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

the gnome os guys are doing some android-style sandboxing for user-level applications which sounds pretty neat and much better than just running random poo poo off the internet as root to install it

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost


this is utterly unreadable

what makes you think transparent terminals are bad but this is ok

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

i keep meaning to just like, boot up a fedora livecd and just compile an entire linux system from scratch with all the latest legacy-free poo poo just for grins

i figure systemd takes care of a lot of the boring poo poo these days so you wouldn't spend ages writing your own artisanal rc system and just use the standardised toolkit as Poettering intended

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

create a tiny little window called GAY BABY JAIL for windows notification area icons

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

Suspicious Dish posted:

That was an actual thing that a coworker said to my face.

the infighting is coming from within the red hat

that... sounds quite amazingly dysfunctional, between that and yum being a steaming pile that never gets fixed/replaced because it's somebody's baby. maybe you should make a passive-aggressive blog post about it, that seems to be how things get fixed in linux land

(i wish i was being sarcastic)

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

man i used to really want to work for google a few years ago and then yospos showed me what a shitpit that place was (also this was before google+ happened which is where historians are going to say it all went wrong)

then i honestly would have loved to work at red hat if i just had open source ~*credentials*~ but apparently that's also got e: an above average level of bullshit office politics (though tbh it still sounds like it would be worth it)

stop ruining my dreams yospos ;_;

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

Kay Sievers is soooooo butthurt about being called out by Linus lol

it's like dude you hosed up quit being a child about it and move on with ur life

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

him and Lennart have been all like "hey, watch out guys, PRIMA DONNA coming through :rolleyes: " for the last week on G+ tho

making this big elaborate show of being not mad

i.e. bein hella mad, in other words

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

yeah you should go work for microsoft instead, i hear they hire lots of ui designers

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

why is docker a thing

and why do people tend to base docker images on a humongous bloated piece of poo poo like ubuntu server that has like a million packages installed that you aren't going to need, then clonestamp it however many times on your server, once for every function it performs (and of course they all have to be administered separately)

embracing vm containers is basically an admission that your operating system is a piece of poo poo

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

So make your httpd vhosts programmatically deployable in a way that's slightly more sophisticated than "just stringbash together a file into vhosts.d and SIGHUP the main process, duh. yeah you need root and you'll trash any updates made by hand, what's the big deal"

just dear god don't make it look anything like Tomcat ok

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

or, you know, you could use a different piece of software that's probably already installed on your server to securely multiplex your hardware resources and isolate the processes using them

it's called a loving kernel

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

alternatively just go full retard and use OSv (lwn article). I'm genuinely surprised nobody has retardgeted node.js for this thing yet.

e: added lwn link. lwn owns very much and is well worth the annual subscription fee. this particular article is more than one week old and hence not paywalled.

Sapozhnik fucked around with this message at 14:02 on May 2, 2014

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

why do you need filesystem namespaces to host multiple services?
why do you need PID namespaces for gently caress's sake??

if a physical or logical co-hosting of multiple independent OS instances seems like a solution to your problem then it means that your operating system is a piece of poo poo to begin with, so loving fix it instead of stuffing it under the floorboards (i.e. adding another layer of abstraction like a lazy piece of poo poo instead of fixing the existing broken abstraction)

i think the issue is that some people use suse, some use rhel/centos, some are complete dumbshits and use ubuntu. some of these distros use rpm, others use deb, systemd unified a lot of the pointless bullshit differences between them and they're fairly similar now except for what package manager they use and what the details of their release policy and acceptable licenses in their repositories look like, but um, well, each of those three kinda have a company that wants to continue to exist and make money behind them, so there's still no unified linux platform out there to standardise on.

so we just pick one of suse/rhel/ubuntu, throw its entire humongous half a gig bag of bloat into a container image, and then put our 200kb of application code on top of that, forward ports into this thing and then call it a day

i.e. the problem is a political one, not a technical one, otherwise we'd all have a de-facto standard around idk debian or something (you yourself seemed to imply that yum and rpm are terrible poo poo being kept from being fixed by means of political backstabbing)

Sapozhnik fucked around with this message at 14:18 on May 2, 2014

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

sorry, i don't mean "you" as in "Suspicious Dish", you're good people, i mean the linux community, which can be a real clusterfuck at times.

still, dealing with linux stupidity is miles better than dealing with windows stupidity so i can live with that.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

Suspicious Dish posted:

Yep. systemd came from the desktop team. Two of the projects from Project Atomic came from the desktop team (Cockpit and OSTree).

Isn't this basically just CoreOS except Red Hat can charge people money for (support on) it?

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

because they treat loving around with linux in its own right as a hobby, not a means to an end for getting actually useful poo poo done

basically they casually break core packages on the reg because they don't like the feng shui or some poo poo and expect you to follow a bunch of mailing lists to see it coming and then pick up the pieces when the whole thing goes tits up

stay the gently caress away from them

(otoh i haven't used arch)

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

Release annoucement for a new GTK+ feature turns into an utterly irrelevant 100-post spergfight

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

I thought for a while that the open-source Mesa stack would inevitably become the standard gpu driver stack on unixy systems

sure it's kind of a toy now but so were linux and gcc at one point and now welp they're basically the industry standard for everything that isn't heavily entrenched due to binary compatibility concerns

however the difference is that intel were always happy to send you big chunky technical reference manuals for x86 free of charge, but nvidia isn't quite so keen on that idea for their gpus. amd document most aspects of their gpus now but not all of them (c.f. video playback) and intel documents theirs but lmao who gives a gently caress about intel gpus.

also gpus, video codes, and even things like hdmi connectors are a minefield of intellectual property slap fights thanks in large part to yospos golden boy apple inc who'd also sic the nazgul on anybody who dared to utter the registered trademark "firewire" back in the day

thanks apple

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

bsd are you in the most literal possible sense a greybeard

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

Smythe posted:

i like to use gnome 3, a lot.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

the bsds are very behind the times when it comes to technology needed to support a desktop stack that still integrates nicely with a unix platform (as opposed to air-dropping some alien skyscraper into the middle of a pristine landscape like osx did with quartz and all their non-FHS objective-C plist poo poo).

they're not even particularly unified seeing as the bsd landscape is balkanised all to hell. openbsd has an admirable security record going for them and that's about it

but i guess that's what happens when you spend more time wishing you could get plowed from behind by apple and other randian captains of industry and talking about how the gpl = communism than delivering decent engineering solutions

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

idk i like gnome 3 and all, or at least i like the direction it's going in, but you guys at rh (suspicious dish and co) do realise that you and you alone completely and utterly killed linux desktops as a going concern with the catastrophic gently caress up that was the gnome 3 rollout

"hi, gnome 2 is discontinued as of right now. go gently caress yourself if you were relying on it for your day-to-day. here is a tech demo of something that might have a useful quantity of features to be a mainstream desktop environment in 5 years. p.s. it requires functional opengl drivers in order to operate at all and those won't really exist for another three years, longer if you don't want to take a massive battery life hit on your laptop. they also have to be open-source because our out-of-the-box story for installing the proprietary nvidia drivers is still awful"

like why the poo poo did you not migrate to gtk3 first and THEN gradually phase out gnome-panel?

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

drawbacks of kde:

[*] looks like dogshit

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

well you installed linux i'm not sure there was ever the reasonable expectation that it wouldn't look like dogshit

looking like dogshit is a time-honored tradition in unix desktops. everyone knows about Sun's garish purple, HP's unreadable blue-on-blue etc. DEC beat them all, they had a dogshit-colored theme as the default:



nah that ui actually looks very nice, and you can tell that it was designed by somebody with a sense of aesthetics.

for starters, text and widgets are aligned and centered properly, and there is a decent amount of padding. the colours are simple, complementary, and not over-saturated.

gnome 3 looks gorgeous imho, that's one thing it really has going for it.

now let's look at the first gis result for "kde"



(the postit is a tribute to a deceased kde contributor, it appears in most of kde's promotional images for their latest release)

this looks like i've got grease on my screen. everything glows and looks blurry as a result. there are drop shadows everywhere. gratuitous transparency is everywhere: in that desktop-bound window thing, in the tray popup, in the music player widgets. it even looks like poo poo with their chosen wallpaper and it'll be completely illegible with any wallpaper that has any sort of hard edges in it. there is no frosted-glass effect to at least make the transparency merely gaudy instead of gaudy and illegible.

linux developers have this inexplicable childish fascination with translucency, this was a boring graphical effect 20 years ago and there's a reason that only linux childes use it. vista and windows 7 use gratuitous transparency everywhere and it looks like poo poo there as well, kde just looks like a worse version of something that looks bad to begin with.

there are grey gradients and specular highlights everywhere. this is a grab bag of mismatched poo poo. you want an osx-like photorealistic style? ditch the gradients, those don't occur in nature. you want a stylised ~*authentically digital*~ looks? then ditch the specular highlights and blown out colours in the icons, also subdue the rounded corners a bit. in fact get rid of the hard saturated primary colours in the icons to begin with, it looks gaudy and tacky (not really all that visible in this picture but kde's icons suffer from this quite a bit)

then there's kde's endless problem with padding and alignment. everything is slightly off and it's clear the designer didn't give a gently caress. the generic CD cover on the music player control widget is off-center. the date under the time is off-center. the volume icon in the tray is far bigger than the envelope icon. there is no padding or demarcation between the menu bar and the tool bar in the music player. there are four different font sizes in that music player (title bar, menu bar and song list, song title, artist, status bar). the big song title is some sort of gaudy Arial that just looks like poo poo.

i'm not even going to pick on the kde control center but that's the king of misaligned poo poo with no padding whatsoever.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

well you bait-and-switched that image when you posted it, because your original one looked nicer still.

it has a nice low colour temperature, the contrast is good, the spacing is good, it's subdued, and it's pretty unobtrusive all things considered.

the ui is dumb, certainly (why does this app think it's so important that it should have a copyright notice in the title bar? what the gently caress is a "session manager" and what specific real-world task does this tool sitting on my desktop constantly help me to accomplish?) but as a profession we've generally learned from our mistakes since then.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

The_Franz posted:

for the new version coming in a couple of months they got some actual non-programmer design people to make it not look like poo poo



but yeah, the current kde theme somehow manages to merge the worst colors and design decisions possible into one ugly mess

this looks far more polished and might actually convince me to try KDE again for the first time since early KDE3 adopted that Krystal diahorrea.

it's still the KDE 4 palette and design motif but it's actually done competently this time

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Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

bump

I'm having doubts about continuing to renew my LWN subscription, because even that place is beginning to succumb to groupthink with I HATE SYSTEMD :byodood: and I HATE GNOME 3 :byodood: posters going around making GBS threads up unrelated discussions

don't even get me started on Michael Larabel's poo poo pit of a site

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