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Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
I mean tbf I actually like gnome 3 and even I'm starting to get soured by some of the poo poo that Alan Day (UI designer) comes up with, because it's becoming increasingly evident that this guy has no plan or ability to think things through and just makes poo poo up as he goes along.

Like the new notification centre. Good for the most part (but then they basically just ripped off Android's notification centre wholesale) but the mockups show private IM messages on the lock screen.

Oh but don't worry, you can turn that off. Well, not really, you can turn off lock screen notifications from the IM system. So you have to janitor this mis-designed poo poo whose design doesn't recognise that IMs are at all different from any other kind of notification, despite them making a big deal in the early releases of being able to respond to IMs straight from the notification system so that it's ~*distraction free*~

more to the point it still gives no persistent indication of pending notifications. so if somebody's trying to get ahold of you and you look the wrong way for two seconds then you're not going to know about it for hours, potentially.

so i have to ask, how god drat incompetent do you have to think that this would be at all well received? sure let's just ignore the primary purpose of a notification system, nbd. suspicious dish would give his universal answer of "file a bug report" but it'll inevitably get CLOSED WONTFIX because no notification system that is fit for purpose can be made consistent with the gnome 3 ~*artistic vision*~. you can't debate major design decisions on bug trackers.

The design language of gnome 3 has changed a lot over time as well, which again makes me think they don't know what the gently caress they're doing and just throw random poo poo against the wall until people don't hate it too much. look at the menu in the top-right corner of the screen for an example of this, there hasn't been a single release where they haven't changed stuff around there and managed to piss off a different group of people with that iteration's changes.

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Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
oh god i'm turning into one of them

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost

Fib posted:

I upgraded my mobo + cpu and now my sound doesn't work - it sounds haunted like it loops and crackles. I read on a random forum post I should download and install the realtek drivers from source but that didn't help. I gave up at that point, I can just listen to music through my phone instead nbd. just linux things

(i had a Windows 7 BSOD while composing this post. go figure. the partially composed text was there when I restarted firefox though so that's pretty neat)

:psyduck:

I am amazed that this is still an issue in 2014. Like, HD Audio has been standardised for years and years now. Windows has a generic driver for HD Audio controllers so I'm guessing Linux should have one too, why doesn't it work?

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
well alsa IS pretty terrible I suppose. It has this hideously complicated API for all sorts of hardware acceleration that hasn't been relevant for like 10 years now.

Your CPU is much much much much much better at doing a saturating multiply-accumulate loop than some crappy piece of Taiwanese silicon (which doesn't even have a hardware volume control these days)

on the other hand, video cards have gone in the opposite direction, from being little more than exotic DMA controllers to these crazy multicore NUMA beasts.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
anyway, Suspicious Dish, I know you're the guy implementing the prototype for the new notification thing, can you please beat it into the designers' heads that there needs to be some sort of notification that you have unread notifications waiting in the tray? tia

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
um, ok. well calling the guy incompetent to his face probably wouldn't have been my first choice of phrasing had i known he would be reading it directly, but that was mostly bourne out of a frustration with a seeming lack of responsiveness from the designers and also a lack of a clear road map (also yospos bitch, obviously i wouldn't phrase my comments like that outside of the funy computer forum). then again this wouldn't be the first time i've inadvertently called a staff member for a project i actually rather like a dumbass to their face on somethingawful :blush: please forward my apologies for my abrupt tone as well if possible.

imho moving this stuff to the calendar is an even worse idea, because those two things have absolutely nothing to do with each other. i'm not sure where else to cram an indication though. not the logout/network/volume/kitchensink icon because that's fuzzy enough as it is, and not activities or clock either. maybe give the bottom of the screen a non-animated glow if notifications are pending?

anyway, thanks for responding. the picture you paint is a very different picture to the one that trickles out via lwn and planet gnome, it's good to see you guys are re-evaluating this aspect of the project because the impression i got before that is that gnome 3 is treated as a playground for design ideas that aren't up for debate. have you considered doing some more outreach and "pr" type activities for gnome? you could do a lot to turn the project's reputation around i think.

Sapozhnik fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Jun 13, 2014

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
i'm saying you personally could do a lot of good in that role if you have time for it. i like reading your blog posts about wayland stuff if nothing else.

i don't sit with you guys so i don't know what kind of ideas get bounced around.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
hmm, i was rather hoping for more meat on xdg-shell vs wl_shell and the nature of its associated deficiencies. is there a ML thread somewhere at least where this is discussed?

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
ah neat, thanks for the explanation.

i look forward to trying out this smooth glitch-free wayland stack sometime soon

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
yeah this apt behaviour seems reasonable actually

so why hasn't anybody made a solid effort to get native direct3d support into gallium3d anyway

fund the right 20 people to do the work and you could get oss graphics drivers into an actually useful state. i think noveau is finally getting to the point where they're like 50% of the proprietary driver performance instead of 2% of the proprietary driver performance because they finally figured out how to reprogram the clock generators from their power-on reset state in the modern nvidia gpus without setting them on fire. also maybe they wrote a replacement for nvidia's binary on-gpu operating system written in some secret vliw monstrosity architecture

poo poo amd and intel are doing this already and apparently the radeon gallium3d drivers are just about there now. nvidia ofc doesn't co-operate because "patents" (translation: the company with the bad silicon and the good drivers is, shockingly enough, not quite so keen on working on a universal open-source 3d driver stack as the companies with the good silicon and the bad drivers are) but even they have started sending patches to the noveau developers for some of their mobile parts.

if you get all that poo poo to work then you could actually do a full-court press for ~*gamerz*~ on linux via steam. valve has the money to fund those 20 people to do that work. games only use a tiny amount of boilerplate win32 api that hasn't changed at all in the last 10 years.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
i'd check to see what open sores 3d driver performance looks like these days but that would mean visiting phoronix and oh christ is michael larabel ever a cretinous insufferable fuckstick

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
yeah idk what's up with intel steadfastly refusing to use gallium but aiui the answer is "politics"

there's also all this gem and ttm and dma-bufs and rendernodes stuff going on in the kernel that i only vaguely understand

then of course there's wayland which i think got conceived in like 2010 or something and has been promptly working its way up the stack one layer at a time. first the patches to mesa and libdrm to make it work, then gbm came along, then it took a few years for toolkits to get ported to it, then apps had to have their hardcoded x11 dependencies fixed, somewhere along the line they split a lib called xkbcommon out of xorg to handle keyboard poo poo, then even more boilerplate got ripped out of the example wayland desktop server and turned into libinput because hey multitouch touchpads with their gestures and their soft buttons are a loving nightmare to work with and now the desktop shells themselves are finally being ported to run native wayland

out of this whole mess a beautiful architecture is beginning to arise but gently caress if it isn't taking its sweet time getting here

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
So what's Gallium being replaced with? OpenGL comes in several mostly-but-not-quite copy-pasted flavours and Direct3D is deliberately engineered with the objective of being as difficult to reconcile with OpenGL as possible because Microsoft gonna Microsoft. Some sort of middle layer is required in order to re-use all the boilerplate crap between drivers, surely.

e: and uuh nVidia's compute team being interested in Noveau is very surprising to me, surely they'd want to lean on their CUDA vendor lock-in as much as possible. nV's contributions to noveau are exclusively around Tegra, which makes sense because those mobile GPUs aren't doing so well in Android handsets, so they might as well try pushing them for non-Android embedded Linux where open source drivers are going to get them into more applications than a whole slew of different binary blobs.

Sapozhnik fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jul 17, 2014

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
oh noes a linux intended for serious commercial applications doesn't include a le epic monkeybacon date printing program

POETTERING :argh:

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost

Awia posted:

whats the prettiest linux please linux nerds?

Fedora because it uses GNOME 3 by default and doesn't try to "fix" it in stupid ways

imho GNOME 3 is far and away the prettiest looking desktop out there at the moment and that's including OSX

perhaps not the most functional (although it Suits My Needs) but definitely the prettiest

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
i know nothing about ansible but it's not written in ruby so it can't be that bad

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost

Progressive JPEG posted:

id like my linux to look like this tia



*sigh* :allears:

this quasi-BeOS look was really pretty and still looks good 14 years later. You don't need alpha composited effects out the rear end to look nice and I bet this actually used X in a remoteable way too instead of being all like "here's a 60fps stream of bitmaps, splat them on the screen"

oh KDE, how far you have fallen.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
Suspicious Dish congratulations on your new job :)

Are you planning to keep working on mutter in newjob?

Also is there a video of your GUADEC talk anywhere (or any of the other GUADEC talks really)?

thx

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost

taht's some cool creepy anime poo poo there suspicious dish

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
memfd syscalls getting merged, kernel secure rng syscalls also getting merged

(a memfd is a chunk of shared memory with an fd attached to it, as the name implies. the fd lets you pass the shm around more neatly using IPC. it can also be "sealed" to irreversibly make it read-only, which is useful when your're using this mechanism for IPC with an untrusted process)

so much for ~*everything is a file*~ (except when it is nothing like a file and just gets awkwardly crowbarred into the metaphor with implied semantics everywhere). perhaps one day we can get rid of /proc and /sys too and kill this garbage for good (/dev is never ever going away)

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
please let me make an effortpost about "everything is a file", i have so much to say about this subject

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
i like systemd, but the linux ecosystem has gone all-in on systemd at a very early stage, and if it all goes tits up then it will inflict grievous harm on linux's credibility as a platform for doing any sort of serious work on. both gnome and kde have also screwed the pooch repeatedly, to the extent that cadt was coined to describe this clusterfuck and it continues to be a problem. pulseaudio also caused a lot of harm, irrespective of the fact that it was ubuntu that hosed everything up.

source: mr dog

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
how's Microsoft's long-term commitment to Silverlight and WinRT working out for u shags

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
can somebody please explain to me why people use ubuntu on a server?

let's take debian and then incompetently gently caress a bunch of poo poo up, then replace a bunch of stuff that's standardised on every other linux distro with our own home brew garbage for no good reason

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
well yeah and every butt provider out there always seem to provide Ubuntu Server images for some reason

surely the people responsible for architecting their butt service know better

also the only people who do their day-to-day development work on a linux workstation are the people who work for suse or red hat. everyone else uses the operating system given to us by His Holiness Steve Jobs (pbuh)

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
debian has debootstrap which owns a whole heck of a lot imo

all distros should have a one-line "infect this partition with a linux" command

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
yeah lemme just pretend my personal server is Google's network of datacenters because I am that much of an epic sperg

also death to software patents

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
Saving face probably

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
A phone that plugs into a docking station to become a desktop is actually pretty ownage, I just don't want Ubuntu to be the ones doing it

(I mean it's better than msft doing it but still)

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
yay wayland! ... yayland.

i have a question: does gnome-shell clear and re-render an entire opengl frame at 60fps no matter what? or does it only render a frame if something changed? does it redraw the entire screen or just the damaged area?

apparently android et al are pushing to do more compositing using just overlay engines or w/e because running the 3D engine on a GPU sucks quite a bit of battery versus using the dedicated 2D hardware.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
http://wingolog.org/

This guy's optimisation work is cool and fun to read about, but it's also a tragic waste of time because nobody uses Guile for anything

Stallman can't get over the fact that LISP is dead

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
yes because you probably also have a business plan and growth strategy since you're a mature and responsible adult who recognises Java's emphasis on actually getting useful tasks accomplished over hipster snowflake rapid-masturbation.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost

Soricidus posted:

interactive terminals were deprecated in the last release and have now been removed. please feed your 50 lines of commands into systemd-shelld.

munch munch i enjoy eating poo poo because that is The Unix Way

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
serious q: why do you think these people will buy your linux computers instead of buying some similar hardware and pirating windows xp

libreoffice is a fuckshow sorry

computers means microsoft (or apple if you're rule 36 as gently caress)

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost

Suspicious Dish posted:

They don't want Windows XP: it's virus-ridden, unsupported, and they don't like working with it. "Windows" to them is an IE with 18 toolbars that they've used in an Internet Cafe.

yeah and it's also the only os that will run poo poo they want to run if they're buying a computer

if they just want to browse the internet and send email they'll just buy an android phone or shitlet like good little consumers :nsa:

i would like to see it succeed, but the oss community's decades-long "convert the third world poors" strategy didn't work with OLPC, it didn't work with the numerous projects to switch local governments over to oss, and it isn't going to work with your thing either. it doesn't even need to get drowned by microsoft bribes, it just never reaches broad user acceptance in the first place.

technical superiority doesn't mean a loving thing. nothing. zero. less than zero. you are posting on a forum written in loving php.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
it's probably all the yospos talking but i wish i was optimistic a person as you Suspicious Dish

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost

Silver Alicorn posted:

mr. dog it seems to me like suspicious dish's company has done a lot more market research than you and you're bitter for some reason :shrug:

hey i'd be happy to be proven wrong, but this particular adventure does have precedent and not good precedent either.

then again they said that about tablet computers and welp ipad happened v:shobon:v

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost

Suspicious Dish posted:

If the end game is that Chinese manufacturers commoditize our hardware and make cheap knockoffs with our own OS and does the engineering to make it work, loving great. We'll exit the hardware business in a flash. Now the Brazilian people have a cheaper machine.

uuh the chinese will make counterfeit knockoffs of your poo poo or they'll make something that kinda sorta maybe works for six months before it falls apart and the NAND flash chips poo poo themselves, it'll have GPL violations out the rear end, binary blobs everywhere, a kernel that's like two years out of date, probably their own advertising shitware built into the browser too.

and it'll be cheaper than your product and that'll be all that matters. nobody wins here except the fly by night chinese operation.

after all this is exactly what happened for Androids in emerging countries, that's what you get when you try to push an open source os. google didn't rush to vacuum everything in Android into the proprietary locked-down Google Play Services module becaues they're evil masterminds pulling a bait and switch, they did it because they had your open source hippy naivete about Android, and it was going nowhere fast until they lubed up, bent over and let the US carriers completely have their way with it. Then they discovered that both carriers and OEMs are complete dickheads of the highest order so they had to make lots of things proprietary in order to get some kind of leverage against them.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html

lennart poettering did another thing

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Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
parts of it i like, parts of it i don't like. the thing is, systemd eliminated a lot of the reasons that distros have to exist (pointless duplication of system-level glue scripts that all got unified into something sensible now that systemd is around). maybe that's why there was so much pushback to systemd: it was an existential threat to distros. i don't really need to preserve "choice" around what i want to call /etc/hostname because it just isn't important.

this WinSxS-on-crack proposal is a technical solution for a political problem. i don't particularly like it because it's going to turn a flat fs hierarchy into a namespaced, aliased, hall-of-mirrors hell.

the political solution is that all linux distros except one need to die. i don't give a crap whether the resulting thing uses deb or rpm or loving pacman. make a single linux with a rolling release model, then snapshot that every year or two and backport security fixes to that snapshot for the next five (or however long). but that is never going to happen because redhat and suse and loving canonical all want to continue to make money, US operations mostly use RHEL, european operations I guess use SLES, and Canonical really needs to gently caress off and die.

At that point upstream can create and push packages for The One True Distro as and when they become ready, and they can maintain those packages within the stable snapshots. Use "sonames" or whatever the drat mechanism is called together with the One True Package Manager to install all of these library versions side by side in a plain and stupid /usr/lib/<platform triple>/ directory (i.e. do multiarch the Debian way because everything else is a hack) without any WinSxS style filesystem virtualisation and namespacing bullshit to cover for library authors' laziness.

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