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Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



Valeyard posted:

scientific linux 6 comes with installations of texlive from 2007 and it is a 5gb install to update, and it is a pain in the rear end

linux is a pain in the rear end

yeah, every one of the 5000 ctan packages (a couple of kilbytes each typically) getting a package of its own would be too heavy-weight on apt or whatever, and installing ctan packages as its own sort of thing would be too un-~linux~philosophy~, so you are left with just installing every package ever made in a huge blob to get things working

on windows on osx where philosophy is reserved for more interesting existential matters the common tex bundles just download those tiny packages as needed during the builds

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Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



Suspicious Dish posted:

Ah yes the "please run this magic command in a scary text box as root" notification.

Yes that's one of the great user interface design decisions to make your computer more friendly and approachable than ever.

People are mad because we flat out stole it from iOS.

kindly realize that the desktop wars are over, fedora and gnome and whatnot did in fact *not* win, ios comparisons are not relevant, and none of the users you actually ended up with will go "oh, scary", though possibly "hmm, inconvenient"

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



i didnt even reevalue it in my mind until you brought it up. man, if a linux named fedora had been launched today there would be such laffs

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



rhel is the only linux that matters fyi

remains a bit of a mystery why rh has a bunch of x and other gui devs on staff, seems like p. dubious business

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



Suspicious Dish posted:

We have and sell a desktop and workstation SKUs which turn a profit.

eh, im sure, but it certainly isnt the bread and butter, and seems a distraction. rh has money and market dominance though, they can afford to play around with theories if desktop linux, just seems a so-so bet to me

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



pseudorandom name posted:

what policy lead to the 4960 texlive packages in fedora?

the policy that distributions should do all packaging together with a pretty vibrant software platform which has a huge set of packages itself, which would make for a huge and unwieldy megapackage if you just put them all together

on windows miktex unsurprisingly pull the packages from ctan as needed, which gets you a relatively small but arbitrary subset of the packages over time

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



ii oh el posted:

tex is just a festering boil that has been allowed to ferment for forty years and decided to evacuate itself all over your package manager

same except all linux package repos and the philosophy surrounding them

ctan is a loving monument of quality in comparison

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



thing is, the probem seems to me to be more that higher-level apis don't seem to congeal on linux like they do elsewhere. all the primitive apis on windows are *awful*, but there are a bunch of stacks above the cleans up and straightens things out. the ecosystem on linux does for some reason not really push in that direction as naturally. java plasters over all of it nicely, and has a pretty big role in server software as an immediate result

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



osx was and is, in a a very non-yosposish serious statement a terrible os in the one arena where linux is unquestionably a very good os; a rather specific but large subset of server tasks

x11 remains a joke though, outdated when it was new and somehow stuck married to some very silly design philosophies all along

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



having elaborate opinions about the different desktop linux implementations and details is much like having elaborate opinions on the merits of various makes of industrial water pumps (while thinking that people who deal with oil pumps are heathens wasting their lifes)

it is not that there aren't sensible reasons for all opinions, it will just forever fascinate all normal people that you for some reason care (except if you work for a pump company, i.e. actually professionally use one of the linux custom cad systems or such)

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



Notorious b.s.d. posted:

a distant family member sells and maintains pumps. he has lots of pump opinions. your choice of pump brand/design is v. important to him.

i work with linux for a living go figure what i give a poo poo about

nice job reiterating my point without adding anything of value

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



the entire linux movement have always been incredibly stupid randomly replacing things that more or less works for purposes of ~purity~, ~~vision~~, and, god loving forbid, ~~~good engineering practices~~~ (see also: linux audio not working at any point in the past 20 years). but wayland is soooo fuuuuuuucking loooooooooooooong overdue

x11 was poo poo the day it was designed, wayland appears incredibly sane in comparison, and in fact a lot of the toolkit and similar work is pretty drat decent but hampered by a hilariously bad underlying infrastructure. trust loving nerds to fetishize the pointless network transparency as a too desirable feature to give up, at a point where every other os had far superior network transparency by copying dumb byte buffers around

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



also, linux on the desktop is never happening but at least linux will perhaps stop being an incredible nuisance in the niches where it works if the graphics stack situation (well, and audio and such) can get cleaned up. if you are a 90%+ market share montrosity like windows you can get away with some cruft and annoyances, but linux having a far worse graphics stack was always a huge sticking point even for the niches where you can pick whatever

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



wait, anyone runs linux on the metal in any other role than as a virtual machine host in 2014?

x11 sucks in vm setups too~~

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



better things than x11 were designed before x11, wayland is a *lot* better, but x11 was total poo poo the day it was invented. it is sort of a classic idiot nerd thing to hail old disfunct poo poo as good, but NeWS predates x11, and *really* *was* *better* in *every* *way*

network transparency is a standard term in reference to the x11 protocol and i am rather perplexed how i managed to introduce it to a redhat developer. you more or less make the intended point; relatively dumb but lower-level byte transport works a lot better than what x11 offers natively

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



Notorious b.s.d. posted:

X predated NeWS, and NeWS was proprietary.

well, yeah, unsurprisingly there are *reasons* why x11 stuck around (and 11 was predated by news). does not change that x11 was total poo poo when it was new. and to be quite honest that is rather irrelevant for the fact that x11 is triple-loving-poo poo in tyool 2014, but i couldn't help pointing out the shitness of x11 since it annoys a lot of the same people who hilariously imagine that oss needed to be replaced by alsa and other later abortions

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



x11: single-handedly killed unix in the early desktop wars, but lets keep it around for another 20 years since enumerating 12389 atoms in network roundtrips starting a terminal is p. neat i guess

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



any vision of linux succeeding on the desktop that somehow involves libreoffice is ridiculous on its face

gdocs is a more viable route since it actually does some things better than the thing people already have (cost is an illusion, people get office), but that p. means linux on the desktop would be chromeos which community-wise is p. much worse than microsoft staying on top since more foss stuff happens on windows than on chromeos

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005




i was momentarily somehow surprised that neal stephenson wrote a lot of words

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



qntm posted:

these are strictly regular, they should be child's play for any regex engine

they're obviously not human-readable but the process of assembling them from smaller patterns is extremely straightforward, if that matters

although there are unnecessary parens all over the place

strict regularity or simple composition is no guarantee whatsoever that a regex runs well, and deciding whether a regex can catastrophically backtrack is pretty drat hard

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



qntm posted:

deciding whether a "regex" is strictly regular or not is trivial. so is running a strictly regular expression in linear time.

I mean, in theory. I know there are some regex engines which fail to do this (perl)

and pcre and java.util.regex

in fact recent perl is one of the few implementations in common use that do not catastrophically fail anymore, since they do some sort of fallback onto their memoizing implementation

e: shameless self-promotion: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1405.5599.pdf

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



parsing expression grammars is probably the sanest thing out there short of going to cubic time parsing

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



i am pretty much banking on antlr being flawed as well, going to do a research grant proposal amounting to ruining all popular java parsing stuff for everyone :haw:

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



the seldom do anything overly stupid once they have a more powerful formalisms as a basis like that (and earley is in cubic time in general). most of what happens with regex and i conjecture (haven't quite dug into it yet) the ll(k) hybrid of antlr is that you have something fast but weak, and then people with practical tasks at hand start meddling with it without considering the more theoretical aspects much

i previously looked at how one can try to bring back some of the extended stuff to classic regexes in a form where it sort of fits (e.g. atomic subgroups like (?>a*|b)), but while that is still regular it seems the state complexity of permitting it in a suitably generalized form is hopelessly gigantic

i think 'just use PEGs' is pretty much the right call either way, whether in the form of OMeta or something else. they are rather different, but different in a way that i think it is actually a lot easier for programmers to think about when compared to the non-deterministic thinking of regexes/cf

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



being a theoretician i pretty much say 'in p' and move on, but people doing really flawed poo poo trying to get to linear time puts food on the table it turns out

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



tbf yospos is such a dumbfuck

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



i claim that tcl/tk was like peak unix but then didn't get replaced by anything equally cleverly simplistic-toolboxy

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



thread summary: lots of people caring about reknowned piece of poo poo os osx randomly in a non-osx thread

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



pram posted:

osx owns

Last Chance posted:

hint: its because using os x is better than cobbling together broken linux poo poo.

quality iyg posting right there guys, those purchases sure are defended!

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



Perplx posted:

we all defend our purchases, only difference is that some of us are right

if you actually literally care about operating systems please actually literally kill yourself

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



pram posted:

can u imagine, arguing about operating systems in yospos. lol

p. sure there is some fine grey forum out there for your brand of bland cheerleading really

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



lol @ nfs tyool 2015

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



the interesting bit is whether chris mason will murder anyone as btrfs reaches maturity

p. sure this fs stuff is a 'breeds there a man' sort of situation

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



posting in the relative merit of technical details of backup system implementation approaches discussion thread

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



lol if your filenames don't all contain at least three of ", ', `, bell, unicode right-to-left marker, $(rm -rf ~/), an illegal utf8 sequence, and the ansi escape for purple background

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



bobbilljim posted:

this poo poo is the height of linux. we've had bash simnce before I was born or whatever and still we can;t just get rid of sh

otoh if unix shells were ever moving forward we wouldn't suffer with bash or sequence-of-bytes pipes or any of that trash *either* so, so it is a pretty overly specific complaint

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



gabensraum posted:

i presumed that people still use bash for compatibility with other/legacy systems

which shell is the current hipster shell?

microsoft, 100% legit truth, poisoned the well by getting powershell right, making it impossible for the linux crowd to admit that adding proper typing, objects in pipes, and an sql-like syntax for pipelines, is the entirely correct route

so, yeah, powershell is the current hipste

though still pretty next level current hipste

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



BobHoward posted:

this is a feature not a bug

upnp is garbage for idiots pushed by microsoft long past its sell-by date, to continue your rotting milk metaphor

a vastly superior ietf engineered standard exists and is good. its called zeroconf. apple invented it so microsoft kept nih'ing it which is the only reason upnp still exists

zeroconf and upnp are not comparable things though. i'd guess the op means upnp-igd for nat control however, in which apple also has a different standardized solution, nat-pmp, you can recycle your post with

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



turns out all you needed all along for device compatibility across different vendors was just having devices from only one vendor, the dream is real~~

though tbqh i rather suspect that the moment you expect samsung or dlink to implement a protocol properly, whether invented in cupertino or Redmond, you can be pretty sure it'll end in tears

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Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



tablets are p. nice but sales are falling pretty heavily so their overall relevance is indeed not great

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