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Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

SedanChair posted:

I don't thinkthat he's saying it should replace our system. I think what Eripsa is trying to say is,

"If kami-sama came to Earth and decreed that all transactions would reflect the true nature of people's interconnectedness, wouldn't that be interesting? All sorts of different stuff might happen, like you getting a burger and also your own dollar back, or two dollars! Maybe corporations wouldn't exist any more."

Can somebody tell me what else he's posting about that this statement doesn't basically cover?

"I'm so loving high right now"

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Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

Gerund posted:

So must StrangeCoin exist only in post-capitalism, or is it merely assumed that StrangeCoin is a vehicle for capitalist theory?

In all seriousness, I've been wondering this the whole time.

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.
Re: your Star Trek article, what is "European Socialist Capitalism"?

Is Strangecoin, in fact, intended for a post-capitalist society, or does it assume the existence of capitalism?

Also, guys, Jon Lawhead says all you PhDs are too dumb for him to bother with.

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

RealityApologist posted:

Again, my claim was that my tools are as central to my identity as my gender. Or even better: my gender is a tool: it is among my methods for establishing my identity in social spaces. I never suggested that discrimination against Glassholes is the same as gender discrimination, but they are of the same kind: they are both discrimination against aspects of one's identity. Someone earlier said that you can slap the Glass off the nerd, which shows that it isn't part of their identity. Well, you can slap the wig off a drag queen too, but it's utterly wrong to conclude the tool doesn't matter for who she is and how she identities.

I am my collection of tools, their various performances and capacities, and the projects to which they are put. Together, the cooperation of these tools constitute my identity. My gender, my body, and my name are among them, but so too is my SSN and my cell phone and my office and my grasp on the English language (tenuous as it might be). It is in virtue of these tools that I am able to negotiate my world. They define my daily habits, my limits of action, and the means through which I decide what I can, should, and will do.

This deep incorporation with tools is not a feature of the modern age. This is a fundamental aspect of the human condition, and has been our condition as long as we've been human. To think otherwise is a form of essentialism that has no place in the modern world.




Click the image for the full text. We're approaching material that I am very much a qualified and competent expert in, so you might want to temper your expectations of how ridiculous I'll look making this particular argument.

:stonklol:

That seems...toweringly obtuse to me.

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

RealityApologist posted:

I'm not coopting LGBTA struggles any more than the gay activists were coopting the struggle of black civil rights activists in the 50s. I think there is a place for technology activism alongside these struggles, and I don't think it's profitable to argue over which forms of discrimination are more important and inhumane than the others. I'd really just rather stop identity bigotry altogether, thank you very much.

So we're clear, I don't think a theater asking you to shut off your cell phone before a movie is a form of cyborg discrimination. I think judging someone to be an rear end in a top hat because they use a particular device is. I don't think the latter case has become a terrible problem yet, but I can easily imagine it becoming a problem in the near future as such devices become ever-more ubiquitous. I think there are lots of examples of how cyborg rights are threatened that have nothing to do with Glass. For instance, I think the movement to declare internet access as a fundamental human right it a kind of cyborg activism we should all support.

I am perfectly happy to talk about identity and technology, and it's relation to issues like gender and ethics. I'll have home court advantage.

Yes, because there isn't anything more important out there than declaring internet access a basic human right. Jesus Christ. Beep boop

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

RealityApologist posted:

I didn't say "more important". I never said this was the most important thing, or more important than other things. I'm just saying this is also a thing. Beep boop.

No, it isn't a thing. It's loving absurd. It shouldn't even be on the top ten of Serious Problems Facing Humanity. It's some tech-fetishist nonsense that ignores the reality of the vast majority of the people in the world.

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

I didn't mean to say that it didn't exist, rather that it was out-of-touch to the point of being utterly absurd.

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

RealityApologist posted:

I'm okay with this stuff being cranky, as long as it's understood that the crankiness is motivated by hazy understandings of legitimate natural science, and not quasimystical Deepak Chopra technochakra bullshit or fascist/libertarian/tinfoil/triangular political ends. I'm not appealing to facts, methods, or research outside the mainstream of scientific discourse, I'm just putting them together in confused and incomplete ways, and that I'm willing to educated myself when corrected.

With all that said, I've done some research and written essays on the role of extremist positions on the dynamics of social systems. In the interest of sharing things I actually know:


If you're interested, the HK model looks like this:



What would you consider to be an ideal outcome for society? I don't really get anything from all this other than "I worship the Singularity", which usually shakes out to some weird kind of fascism.

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.
/\/\ I laughed.

eXXon posted:


Just out of curiosity, RA, when you discuss ideas like reifying the class structure by assigning people coloured buttons identifying their social class and when you advocate a system that would admittedly make it more difficult for poor people to buy food and basic necessities, are you making any kind of value judgement on the merits of such a system? It's hard for me to reconcile 'worried about hypothetical silent discrimination against cyborgs' RA vs 'likes the idea of clearly identifying poors with brown badges to more easily refuse to serve them' RA.

This is actually a really good question that I'd like to see your answer to as well.

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

RealityApologist posted:

I don't want to fight about this because I agree with everything you say. I don't think cyborg rights are more fundamental than other rights, and I think they must exist in dialogue with those other rights. So I walked back on the claim to emphasize that the mere fact that they are tools doesn't guarantee your right to access, and other considerations (like the safety and welfare of others) is certainly reasonable to consider. I shouldn't have retreated on the example without being more careful to say how difficult it is to distinguish between when that right is or is not appropriately exercised in the general, and frankly I don't have any intuitions about this particular case because I haven't thought about it much. My own inclination is to be very broad with defining the scope of "cyborg", but I realize that there are more conservative ways of defining its scope that doesn't contradict the basic claim that tools=identity but nevertheless rule out cases like these.

The consequence of ruling out certain kinds of technological access as "inappropriate" while still conceding the premise that "tools = identity" is that one is committed to the claim that one might legitimately rule another's identity inappropriate. I go back and forth pretty regularly about whether I'm okay with this consequence, especially as it pertains to technology, and I can see arguments on both sides. I recognize that these are difficult issues, and I don't want to fight about it mostly because I see too much conceptual ambiguity to have any committed stake on the issue, even in concrete cases. But none of that waivers my belief that tools are part of our identity, and I don't think I have to resolve those issues to be confident in that belief.

Thank you for taking this issue seriously. It's important.

hahahahahahhahaha

:qq: MY CYBORG RIGHTS

In all seriousness, the University of Illinois must be a loving joke.

Badera fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Apr 6, 2014

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

RealityApologist posted:

Racism has some benefits for the majority, but even in deeply racist societies the stereotypes relationships break down in strange and interesting ways all the tim. My claim is not that racism isn't effective for social control; of course it is. My claim is only that there are more effective and more useful methods available, and ones that operate under different values and assumptions.

One thing to speak in its favor is that Strangecoin is extremely hostile to the notion of "private property". This connects back to the discussion of corporations earlier in the thread: Strangecoin gives an effective way of piercing the corporate veil by quantifying explicitly an individual's contributions to collective action. So in some sense, there is no private property in strangecoin world: everything is collectively owned. That gives at least some incentive to not unilaterally inhibit the jews; it hurts TUA and so it hurts us too. That doesn't protect the Jews against the inhumanity of man, of course, but that's a distinct kind of incentive that other kinds of socioeconomic networks. See: the digital values.

I've read this four times and I still can't tell what you're trying to say in the first three sentences. It is indistinguishable from Thomas Friedman, and that isn't a compliment.

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.
I actually think that this incredibly painful-to-read derail has improved the thread.

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

Little Blackfly posted:

What RA obviously wants out of all this is community enforced ethical consumption. Any attempt to purchase products or services from nodes caries an explicit economic cost, so presumably it would disincentivize dealing with those nodes. Basically every transaction people would do between each other would become a complex calculation as to how much of your economic karma you'd want to risk. It's a lot like a libertarian's fetishizaiton of contracts.

Yeah, that's what I've been thinking the entire time, I just couldn't decipher the word salad enough to confirm it. RA, are you a libertarian?

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

Tokamak posted:

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Where are the computers, the algorithms, the self-organisation? You mean people have to go out of their way, and work to identify unethical practices? I want to live in a world where we can put aside practical concerns and frame all of our problems in my pet cyber-utopia philosophy.

:qq: MY IDENTITYGLASS :qq:

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.
Guys, I found the new spec!

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

CheesyDog posted:

Now now don't rush him, he may have gotten involuntarily committed a job! or something!

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

Ratoslov posted:

Why the hell would I want to enforce caste structures on society? :psyduck:

I've actually been wondering this the whole time. I can't get my head around it at all.

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

RealityApologist posted:

It would be stupid if I hadn't tried to be very clear about what I mean and why the term is appropriate. If people are confused it's because they aren't paying attention.


First, I'm a naturalist. I don't think the "is-ought" fallacy is a fallacy. Basically every philosopher I've cited (Quine, Dennett, Rorty, Clark) would argue the same.

Second, I'm not a libertarian. I'm not arguing that the free hand of self-organization will find the perfect balance of social virtues. I'm describing a system for making explicit our social ties so that we might control or otherwise account for them. I'm saying that human social organizations develop by preferential attachment, and that we can build a economic game that accounts for this structure of human organizations in a way that modifies the decision making process to naturally account for this bias.

That doesn't mean it fixes all the problems. It's just another way to think about economic relations.


I'm not saying anything about "natural leaders", and I basically agree with you entirely on this point. In fact, I'd argue that Strangecoin is meant to assist in the natural "churn" of human social networks, by providing a framework in which those changes can be managed explicitly. I'd argue that a significant amount of the problem with our existing systems is the frictions caused by institutions that aren't well-suited to the changes that naturally take place within human communities, and this is often because the dynamics of power aren't well represented by the institutional tools designed to manage that power. Hence representative governments fail to represent their constituents, etc.

Now you're right that nothing about this discussion requires that we throw all the bums out and start from scratch, so that any existing inequalities would just get carried over into a system like this. That would be a problem if I were planning a revolution, but I'm just talking about how a system like this might work even in cases of inequality. I'm taking this as an attempt at realism; I'm not just assuming utopian conditions. I don't think that's a criticism of my proposal.

You say this, but what you're proposing (if I understand correctly, which is far from certain) is libertarianism in fact if not in word. Even if the information existed and I could see what my social ties were, that information in and of itself doesn't carry any moral weight--and would be so voluminous as to be totally overwhelming. It smacks of ~rational actors~. Moreover, as many, many people ITT have pointed out, Strangecoin would do nothing but reify existing power structures. It's grotesque.

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

RealityApologist posted:

"People treat their friends and family different than other economic agents" is basically the exact opposite of ~rational actors~.

Ok, granted, but that still doesn't address anything else I said.

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

Install Windows posted:

It really can't be stated enough that Doctorow's book involves Whuffie only arising after both death and scarcity have been solved.

My god, I just read the wiki article and...it's exactly what he's proposing, except the article can actually explain what it is.

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Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

Ocrassus posted:

You're not seriously suggesting somebody has actually green lighted and allowed his poo poo to fly? I've been sat on by undergrad advisors for being a bit too *ahem* 'original' (and rightly so) but this takes the biscuit.

I think someone posted parts of his doctoral thesis. It was...about what you'd think. I'm far from an expert and it seemed impossibly lightweight even to me.

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