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Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


To me an online social justice warrior is someone who's more concerned with making sure everyone uses the right vocab than actually addressing the foundations of the injustice they're fighting.

I'll put it this way: You'd never call out a public interest attorney working for the Southern Poverty Law Center as a Social Justice Warrior because they're actually doing poo poo. Gokusaiyan19 on Tumbler on the other hand isn't really interested in fighting the good fight just making sure they can parrot the same poo poo that every other activist on the site has deemed important that month.

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Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:



Now maybe there's an issue with how these terms are used today on tumblr or wherever (and I'm sure that the PYF thread will be eager to provide you with a handful of examples of these, after scouring a site with 174 million blogs), and it's obvious that people can start using 'cargo-cult' terminology, which doesn't have a basis in materiality. Nonetheless, a) these are real discussions with long antecedents, that continue to go on today - all that's changed is that young people and teenagers are increasingly having them too (with all that that entails), and b) perhaps the speed with which people are willing to assume the worst about people talking about issues of social justice, because they use (some) unfamiliar words means that they may have a point about there being some level of ingrained, reflexive prejudice in society? makes u think about what the deal with people using the phrase sjw really is ...

Literally no one here is saying that the actual issues and vocabulary used to talk about them don't have merit.

You're being obtuse, either deliberately or unintentionally.

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


step aside posted:

imagine if the nexus of all systems of oppression formed a pyramid

My ancestor was a witch who was burned on a pyre.

Watch your trigger words.

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


That's ultimately what separates a Social Justice Warrior from an empathetic ally.

Online Social Justice Warriors are more concerned with appearing indignant about vocabulary use and righteous fury at people who might not (and probably don't) know any better.

True campaigners can explain to you why what you said was hurtful. SJW's expect you to not only know but also to be well informed of their ridiculous and ever-changing notions of how they classify every possible sleight.

It's sort of like this:

Imagine you went to Germany and didn't speak a signal syllable of German. A kind and normal person would try to work with you to figure out that you want to order a Coke. The SJW analogue in this example would be more concerned with making sure everyone knew how loving stupid you were for not speaking the language and how insulting you were being.

Also they're French and don't speak German either but damnit they understand how the Germans must feel.

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


Last Buffalo posted:

Yeah, Biotruths have a significant amount of assumptions behind their ideas, and it always comes off as a pseudoscience. After reading this thread, though, it feels like it always comes from men, who while they don't hold any personal prejudices against women, are aware of the inequalities that exist between men and women around them. However, since they assume people are like them, and don't think of women as incapable or weak, they look for another explanation for the difference and figure it has to come from those weird periods womenfolk get.

But to his original point that there aren't many woman who matriculate into engineering or the hard sciences:

Why is this inherently bad? I know full well there are assumed gender roles and people in positions of authority dissuade and assume young girls simply aren't suited for being an engineer. I get that. But why is it bad that engineering departments don't have more women?

I'm willing to give most college women the benefit of the doubt and assume they are making their own decisions, if they don't want to join the engineering program why is that a problem? If they don't want to be an engineer they don't want to be an engineer. Universities jump all over themselves to give women engineering and science scholarships to boost their numbers, the applicants simply aren't there. Hell if we want to get right down to it the hard sciences are the only departments left where men outnumber women in universities.

To bring it back to the board topic what I'm getting at is this: Honest campaigners for equality recognize social and cultural pressures that influence women from an early age to move away from the hard sciences and work to address those. SJW's on the other hand will bitch, moan, demonstrate, and generally try to destroy an engineering department for not having more women when the engineering department would love nothing more than to have more girls apply, the interest just simply isn't there.

Basically: SJW's are slacktivists who reduce any problem to the easiest target and attack that without addressing the actual causes.

Pook Good Mook fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Apr 6, 2014

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


Eej posted:




It's not inherently "bad" if you base your view on the matter with the assumption that social equality has been reached and there is some kind of biological premise for an overwhelming minority of females caring about tinkering with poo poo.

That's you putting words in my mouth. Why do we as a society want more woman engineers if not for some misguided attempt to make every educational and professional achievement a 50-50 split between men and women?

You want to attack the social and cultural constructs that tell women "You aren't supposed to build stuff, men do that"? Fine. But don't frame it that the fact that there are more women doing something than men an inherently "bad" thing. More men than women want to be engineers. That's all you can definitively prove from current enrollment and graduation numbers. You can't prove that every woman who isn't in the program was told she couldn't. That more would want to if they were given better encouragement. That the men in the department ran them out. You can't. No matter how much you want to you can't.

You explain to me how schools should somehow conjure this demand from women who want to be engineers right this very second. You can't because every woman who wants to be an engineer is already doing it. The reason those departments are under-representative of the population of women in this country is because every woman who wants to be a scientist or engineer is already working to be one.

You want to talk in the abstract? Things that will aid our society by making sure that no one is turned away from an opportunity because of social norms and expectations fine. But don't try to tell me that there are less women engineers than men and then tell me it's "bad" if your only argument amounts to the idea that there should be more women doing something for no other reason than currently a lot of men do it. Are you going to say the same thing about men in English departments? In Art departments? In Communications or Psych departments? Or any other Liberal Arts program where women outnumber men? I doubt it.

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


computer parts posted:

Because environments which are homogenous in culture tend to breed types that are hostile to outside groups, even just groups in general rather than people trying to join their environment.

In other words, having engineers be primarily white men makes a lot of people that are hostile to people who aren't white men, even if it's just [random black lady] instead of a minority trying to be an engineer.

And I completely agree. I would love us to live in a world where little girls who like to play with tinker toys are allowed to foster and grow their natural curiousity and go on to build skyscrapers.

My point is don't blame engineering or science departments who are already throwing full-ride scholarships at every woman applicant they can find for not having more female students. They have enrolled every interested women in the entire country, there simply aren't as many women interested in becoming engineers and scientists as there are men. What SJW's don't understand is that it isn't the fault of a university science department. The problem has much, much deeper roots than that.

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


computer parts posted:

And the problems are literally what you dismissed a post ago:

quote:

You can't prove that every woman who isn't in the program was told she couldn't. That more would want to if they were given better encouragement.

You can't! You start out with a premise that there are less women then there should be in certain fields. OK sure. Where are they? What's the percentage who missed out?

This is the problem with poo poo like this. You want social change but then you can't give any god drat numbers. You start out with a tautology that we all pretty much agree with and then you can't point out the next steps you would think must exist. Instead we do some circular argument bullshit and everyone has yet to hear any hard numbers or examples.

Let's assume that every woman on a college campus has the ability to decide for herself what they want to do. And then let's just take the fact that college's have done everything they possibly can to get more women into their science programs. The fact that there is still a disproportionate number of men isn't because of the college and certainly isn't because of the women on the campus who simply don't want to be engineers. The problem is our societal pressures that tell girls there are just somethings you don't do.

If you want to rail on the end result, namely that there aren't as many women as man in science programs then you are either saying that college science departments are intentionally turning away qualified women applicants or saying that girls are wrong for doing what they want to do. Because those are the only two things that have a direct agency with the two players we're talking about : women, and science departments.

What I'm getting at is the insistence on blaming the end result for problems that are much deeper and have almost nothing to do with the most noticeable outcome of the system is the reason why people get so tired of online activist horseshit. We all agree on the problem but it seems to be just a circle jerk on continually identifying the most obvious culprit you can find which in most cases have next to nothing to do with the actual problem.

Pook Good Mook fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Apr 6, 2014

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


Eej posted:

Yeah, you focus on reshaping society so it stops telling people that men must behave this way and women must behave this way and maybe then we'll have less gender disparity.


Eej: I get what you're saying and again I'm not disputing there is a problem. I'm just so tired of social justice activism relying on things that are said as if they are self-evident but never digging any deeper as to why they are self-evident or what the real solutions are. I apologize for coming off as so abrasive but the constant "This is bad because this is also bad" logic that permeates social justice is just endless circle jerking.

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


A Buttery Pastry posted:

If you had ever taken the time to look into this, you would be well aware that feminists also care a great deal about men being underrepresented in certain fields, just like they do for women in others. Not all of them obviously, but opening up those fields to men and making men feel comfortable doing "feminine" jobs helps break down the assumptions about gender that hold women back too, even in an entirely woman-centric view of the problem.

A very good post, thanks.

Regarding the last part, I actually did know that. Despite the persona that my views probably allude to I actually stayed pretty up on these things in college and do my best to stay abreast of issues even now. My commentary was regarding internet activism that generally follows this flowchart:

1: Point out a self-evident truth
2: Automatically allude to another bad thing that isn't really proved by the first but it's at least close enough that you can get there
3: Because 1 + 2 therefore X
4: Feign indigence (at best) and deride bonafides when someone points out the problem with the logical chain.

For what it's worth I already agreed with the premise and your complete post, you said it better than I could. I just can't stand lazy activism. The simple act of indicating and categorizing inequality is not a solution to it.

Pook Good Mook fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Apr 6, 2014

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


How topical!

http://time.com/58743/cancelcolbert-activists-we-will-protest-this-until-it-ends/

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


Dusseldorf posted:

It's actually very useful to work with people who come from different fields and people who were educated in different countries when working on science/engineering projects. Having an all male team can limit your opinions in solving a problem many times too. Like it or not women quite often have a very different experience in their engineering education than men.

At the risk of playing with fire:

Isn't this a tacit acknowledgement/agreement with the :biotruths: crowd?

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


Dusseldorf posted:

Yes, different cultures and educational experiences are clearly only generated by :biotruths:.

But then following that logic:

A) There aren't a lot of women in engineering or the sciences
B) They aren't in these fields because cultural and societal pressures and different experiences
C) We should work to eliminate those external pressures so there are more women in engineering
D) Because the differences make them valuable team members

You can't have it both ways. Your own argument is implying that women have different experiences than men and on some level that's a good thing and shouldn't ever change. But at the same time differences in men and women are artificial and all the barriers to entry are societal.

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


computer parts posted:

Differences that result in the conclusion of "women's brains are not suited to do this work" are artificial.

Would you say a Chinese person's brain is unsuitable for engineering? Of course not, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a different experience from a white person and can add a valuable perspective.

Of course not.

But when you say our cultural experiences are what help make us valuable team members and then in the next breath say there should be no difference between men and women in the same society then what valuable differences and insight are women bringing to engineering in a society where there is no noticeable difference between the genders?

Basically what I'm saying is (and this only really applies when we're talking about strictly men and women), you can't say that women and men aren't different and then say that the differences are what make women valuable team members.

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


There's also a sizable debate even among Hispanics about what constitutes Hispanic. My girlfriend is Mexican but you wouldn't know until the end of the summer when she becomes unbelievably tan.

I bring this up because her Grandmother is very proud of being Spanish Mexican and is incredibly racist against darker skinned Mexicans.

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


Berke Negri posted:

"The Hispanic Vote" is really just "The Mexican Vote". Cubans and Puerto Ricans are distantly after that but those are more very narrow regional groups I guess.

That's because the Cuban and Puerto Rican experience has as much in common with central American immigrants as German immigrants do.

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


Omi-Polari posted:

So weaboos are calling Avril Lavigne's latest pop single/video racist for appropriating Japanese culture. What's being left out is that (I didn't know this) the singer is arguably one of the most popular Western artists in Japan, and the song was only released in Japan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZsf4F7Oe7A

Also "appropriating culture" is almost always a bullshit claim anyway.

To a SJW a white guy who likes tacos is appropriating Mexican culture.

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:

Yeah, white folks just can't win, huh?

It's human to eventually become resentful when it feels like you're near-constantly under attack for stuff you're not really responsible for. Two wrongs never make a right, ever, so why act like it's okay? Because white people.

When you express your feelings people tell you why you're wrong for having feelings and that you belong to the evil white monolith and that you're probably a white supremacist for not groveling.

Won't someone besides Stormfront think of the white people? Most white people aren't what others think they are and...

Oh.

Well as a white person with French Canadian ancestry I can't stand when Americans play hockey or eat maple syrup.

Also it's insulting when Chinese people eat noodles. I know that they're used to noodles but they resemble spaghetti and it's insensitive for them to eat something that so many people of Italian ancestry recognize.

I also hate when Christians celebrate Christmas by appropriating Russian festivals and holding it on existing holidays celebrating the winter solstice.

And white people can't put up Tibetan prayer flags anywhere ever because they aren't from Nepal. Even if they spent 2 years studying abroad there with a local family and speak the language and follow all local customs.

See how problematic "cultural appropriation" is? We're not talking about being upset we can't wear black face and do minstrel shows or that someone can't dress up as a Nazi SS officer for Halloween.

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


Lowly posted:

This kind of makes me curious what the reaction then is to something like the Mardi Gras Indians in New Orleans. It's black people who dress in elaborate costumes inspired by Native American ceremonial wear. It's a form of cultural appropriation, but it's also been happening for so long (more than 100 years) that it has become a part of the local black culture.

If it's an oppressed minority culture appropriating from another oppressed minority culture does it then become okay or does that lead to some sort of paradox that makes everyone's head explode?

Cultural Appropriation isn't really a big deal. It really isn't.

You want to live in a diverse and open society that values different cultures and the sharing of ideas? Then you are inevitably asking everyone to discover things they like from other cultures and start using it themselves.

Outside of heinously offensive things like minstrel shows it's actually a sign of a thriving and healthy society.

Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


My alma mater held a demonstration on campus about suicides on college campuses: http://www.tnhonline.com/news/annual-stand-against-silence-vigil-1.3164500#.U2AhAaJn4fU

While not 100% related the comment on the story at the bottom is an absolutely blistering take-down of college "activism" that doesn't expect to be challenged on its figures.

quote:

Trigger Warning!! Speaking of the current liberal-SJW mantra "one-in-four" will experience ________ (fill in the blank......rape/mental illness/assault, etc.) on college campuses - I wonder if the New Hampshire will do a piece on just how many of the 8,000 women on campus have been raped in the last 4 years at UNH? Seems to me that the current buzz-statistic being used by "3rd Wavers" means that there should be about 2000 rapes in the last 4 years? It shouldn't be hard to go the Rape Crisis Center here and get the data on this? Oh - however, since Feminist Theory states that only 1 in 10 rapes are reported - the statistic should be 200 reported rapes, right? Hmmmmm.....that's funny......there's only been two in the last FOUR years. And in those 4 years there has been over 16,000 different women on campus! I wonder what is going on? Could they be possibly 'wrong' - like in 200X wrong?

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Pook Good Mook
Aug 6, 2013


CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:

The white male piece is like the iron in Monopoly: nobody wants that poo poo.

I'd imagine the white male piece starts 15 spaces ahead of everyone else and gets paid 23% more than the female pieces. I'd go white male piece every time.

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