Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«202 »
  • Locked thread
fletcher
Jun 27, 2003

ken park is my favorite movie

Cybernetic Crumb

Howard Phillips posted:

Gaming keyboards worth the price tag?

I like tactile feedback as much as the next guy but $120.00 for a keyboard seems a little excessive when I could spend the extra money on going from a GTX 760 to a 770.

The Corsair Vengeance K70 has some pretty awesome red backlighting but other than that wtf do I need it for?

I think a nice keyboard is worth the price because they last for so long. 4 computers from now you will probably still be using the same keyboard.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

atomicthumbs
Dec 26, 2010


We're in the business of extending man's senses.


deimos posted:

the cuntbags made it so that you can't use codes if you weren't subscribed to their newsletter when it went out, sneaky bastards.

e: quick, someone screenshot their email so I can maybe convince amazon to price match!

Relin
Oct 6, 2002

You have been a most worthy adversary, but in every game, there are winners and there are losers. And as you know, in this game, losers get robotizicized!

I noticed the Corsair Carbide 200R has vents on top, and while I'm sure it's helps ventilation, my house (and non hole on top case) gets pretty dusty. Is there another ATX case of similar price y'all would recommend without that?

Ignoarints
Nov 26, 2010


Black Dynamite posted:

I have an Intel 530 240Gb SSD, an old NVIDIA GTX 650, 8gb 1600 RAM, and an i7 4770k.


I plan on getting a new video card when Nvidia's 800 series cards are out.


I was thinking maybe this, but read a review that said it didn't work well on some guy's ASUS.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...06&sku=C13-2510

That much power is for at least 2x power hungry video cards + overclocked CPU and all the normal stuff. Power is power, don't worry about compatibility between brands, just worry about quality and if it has the connectors you want. The only compatibility thing with Haswells is supporting sleep mode or not.

Taco Duck
Feb 18, 2011



Ignoarints posted:

That much power is for at least 2x power hungry video cards + overclocked CPU and all the normal stuff. Power is power, don't worry about compatibility between brands, just worry about quality and if it has the connectors you want. The only compatibility thing with Haswells is supporting sleep mode or not.


Yeah, I've overclocked my CPU already and haven't ruled out running two high-end Nvidia's in the future for 4-8k resolution.

Soldier o Fortune
Jul 22, 2004



ShaneB posted:

Do you know if the 3D rendering software you want to use utilizes hyperthreading (like actually uses it) and/or fills 16GB of RAM?

I believe it does and a few people here had recommended the i7 and 16GB based on that. Seems like it might be worth it.

Ignoarints
Nov 26, 2010


Black Dynamite posted:

Yeah, I've overclocked my CPU already and haven't ruled out running two high-end Nvidia's in the future for 4-8k resolution.


Nice, the seasonic linked earlier is better then

Taco Duck
Feb 18, 2011



Ignoarints posted:

Nice, the seasonic linked earlier is better then

Awesome, thanks.

Ignoarints
Nov 26, 2010


ShaneB posted:

Do you know if the 3D rendering software you want to use utilizes hyperthreading (like actually uses it) and/or fills 16GB of RAM?

I have zero experience with it but once you look into 3d rendering its a totally new set of rules for hardware. People can consistently use more than 16gb with real actual 3d rendering work (not just benchmarks). The argument tends to be whether 32 gb is worth it or not, some people scrap everything and get what they need for 64. Hypertheading nets you about 20-30% improvement in speed with 3d rendering benchmarks. That's about all I know though

Soldier o Fortune
Jul 22, 2004



Ignoarints posted:

I have zero experience with it but once you look into 3d rendering its a totally new set of rules for hardware. People can consistently use more than 16gb with real actual 3d rendering work (not just benchmarks). The argument tends to be whether 32 gb is worth it or not, some people scrap everything and get what they need for 64. Hypertheading nets you about 20-30% improvement in speed with 3d rendering benchmarks. That's about all I know though

Very helpful thanks. Maybe if I can squeeze 32 it would be good since I am under budget.

Any other issues with the build?

Thanks!

Ignoarints
Nov 26, 2010


Soldier o Fortune posted:

Very helpful thanks. Maybe if I can squeeze 32 it would be good since I am under budget.

Any other issues with the build?

Thanks!

I don't remember details, but I'm pretty sure that was the case for people who did it for a living, which I'm not saying you don't but there is probably a wide range in workloads. That said, most people have 16 gb and are happy with it.

But no the build looks good. I actually didn't even know there was a 4771. In case 32gb is a total waste, you can always pick up 16* more gb later.

deimos
Nov 30, 2006

Forget it man this bat is whack, it's got poobrain!



Thanks, amazon said nope but it was worth a try.

Ocular
Sep 20, 2005

I am currently saving up for BRATZ Forever diamonds set

Hi guys, sorry for the repeat inquiries however I've just finished revising my build more or less and could really use some advice before I bite the bullet tonight.

As per suggestion I swapped over to Micro ATX, here's what I've thrown together:

quote:

Intel Core i5-4670K
Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO Direct Heat Pipe CPU Cooler
GTX 770
Corsair Vengeance 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3 1600MHz
Corsair Obsidian 350D case
Seasonic G-550 Modular 80PLUS Gold 550W PSU
Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD

As for the GPU and mobo, I'm slightly torn, my local Canada Computers has this Zotac 770 http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Produc...N82E16814500302 on a pretty good sale, plus it's running at a higher base clock speed. My original choice for the 770 was the popular Asus http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Produc...N82E16814121770 — $30 more expensive than the Zotac but I've never used any Zotac hardware before so I'm not sure of their reliability nor reputation. Seems like a good deal, though.

Anyway, with the mobo, I initially picked out the seemingly highly rated Asus Gryphon http://www.canadacomputers.com/prod...&item_id=061011 but the price is fairly high. I kind of need the two PCI-E slots but it's not a big deal really. I'm just looking for reliability mainly. My second choices were on the lower end with this Asus Z87M-PLUS http://www.canadacomputers.com/prod...&item_id=061017 or this even less expensive Gigabyte board: http://www.canadacomputers.com/prod...&item_id=060883. They all seem fairly good, I am just at a loss as I've been out of the game for way too long.

Is Micro ATX the way to go? I'm really liking the Corsair 350D case a lot as opposed to many ATX cases, but again, I'm just not sure. I do enjoy the smaller profile when it comes to Micro ATX.

Thanks very much in advance for any advice possible (again), much appreciated!

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007

Wake up and
smell the murder.


Ignoarints posted:

I don't remember details, but I'm pretty sure that was the case for people who did it for a living, which I'm not saying you don't but there is probably a wide range in workloads. That said, most people have 16 gb and are happy with it.

But no the build looks good. I actually didn't even know there was a 4771. In case 32gb is a total waste, you can always pick up 16* more gb later.

As a few people mentioned earlier, if you don't need the IGP, the E3-1240v3 is $30 cheaper (although 100mhz slower). The E3-1230v3 is $60 cheaper (200mhz slower).

You probably almost certainly won't notice the 100/200 mhz drop. If you did, it would be worth it to go up to the i7-4770k for an extra

Ignoarints
Nov 26, 2010


KillHour posted:

As a few people mentioned earlier, if you don't need the IGP, the E3-1240v3 is $30 cheaper (although 100mhz slower). The E3-1230v3 is $60 cheaper (200mhz slower).

You probably almost certainly won't notice the 100/200 mhz drop. If you did, it would be worth it to go up to the i7-4770k for an extra

I wonder if it will be a go to i7 recommendation now.

Come to find out they used to cost almost exactly the same as their i5 counterpart :o. Practically a no brainer back then all else equal

http://ark.intel.com/compare/65516,65732

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007

Wake up and
smell the murder.


Ignoarints posted:

I wonder if it will be a go to i7 recommendation now.

Come to find out they used to cost almost exactly the same as their i5 counterpart :o. Practically a no brainer back then all else equal

http://ark.intel.com/compare/65516,65732

They still pretty much do.

http://ark.intel.com/compare/75043,75047,75054

deimos
Nov 30, 2006

Forget it man this bat is whack, it's got poobrain!


e: nevermind, for some reason I thought E3-1230v3 was an IB part.

Hrm, how does vPro work if you don't plug a video card into the system?

deimos fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2014 around 20:33

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007

Wake up and
smell the murder.


deimos posted:

Isn't haswell around 5-10% faster per clock though? That would give the 4771 a bigger advantage than just 100-200MHz. Still might not be worth the price difference, but it's something to consider (along with power consumption, having to buy an older motherboard, etc, etc).

The Xeon E3-xxxx v3 processors are all Haswell, and the 1230 is identical in hardware to the Haswell i7's with the exception of missing the IGP (it's actually fused off). The e3 and i7 also has 8MB cache; the i5 only has 6.

http://ark.intel.com/compare/75122,75043,75047,75054

KillHour fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2014 around 20:35

Ignoarints
Nov 26, 2010


Woops I always get microcenter prices for I5's and I7's in my head. They don't seem to sell v3 xeons unfortunately. To be fair, it's still a solid $50 increase from Newegg but it sure helps for people who want hyper threading but not a k model.

Considering how intel prices stuff I'm pretty surprised its actually lower in cost than the i7 (although it makes perfect sense in reality). People probably wouldn't think twice if it cost more though

deimos posted:

e: nevermind, for some reason I thought E3-1230v3 was an IB part.

Hrm, how does vPro work if you don't plug a video card into the system?

remote terminal I'd guess (vpro is a lot of crap but I'm guessing this is what you meant)

Ignoarints fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2014 around 20:42

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013


Ignoarints posted:

I have zero experience with it but once you look into 3d rendering its a totally new set of rules for hardware. People can consistently use more than 16gb with real actual 3d rendering work (not just benchmarks). The argument tends to be whether 32 gb is worth it or not, some people scrap everything and get what they need for 64. Hypertheading nets you about 20-30% improvement in speed with 3d rendering benchmarks. That's about all I know though

Yeah thats consistent with my research on the matter. I think 16 GB and i7 or Xeon would be decently adequate for CPU driven stuff like Maya.

I think what makes it difficult is new tech is being developed all the time. Maya is pretty CPU/Ram intensive, but Blender and some of the newer technologies for Maya(like https://www.redshift3d.com/) and others favor GPU more. Guess depends on what you use. Hell Zbrush is still 32 bit only for whatever reason so 16GB is way overkill for that.

It seems really hard to optimize a system unless you know which specific software you want to work in. But meh, I guess if you get a decent all around system its prob fine and if you are a professional working for a company, you probably have that stuff nailed down so that you know exactly what you need. whats a 10 min render compared to a 5 min render anyways for the rest of us? I mean if its under 20 min for an intensive scene that's prob good enough if you aren't faced with strict deadlines and what not.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2014 around 22:24

Beast
May 2, 2004
thirsty for justice

This may seem like a silly question but - is there any advantage or disadvantage anyone can see over picking this

https://www.asus.com/Graphics_Cards/GTX760DCMOC2GD5/

over

http://www.asus.com/Graphics_Cards/GTX760DC2OC2GD5/

to replace a now sadly showing its age a bit Asus 6850?

Only reason I'm considering the mini version is that I built my pc (using this amazing thread) about 2 1/2 years ago and in ATX... The only upgrade I can foresee in the future is possibly moving to a smaller case and I had a thought that if I bought the mini version I could use that whereas a full size card may have issues. Or am I over thinking this? The non mini is currnently £172 at amazon.

And also I presume I should see some benefit in the upgrade - paired with i5 2500K, 8gb and SSD. Gaming at 1080p.

deimos
Nov 30, 2006

Forget it man this bat is whack, it's got poobrain!


Ignoarints posted:


remote terminal I'd guess (vpro is a lot of crap but I'm guessing this is what you meant)

I guess the gist of my question is... will it boot without a graphics card at all so I can shove ESXi on it and make a lab out of it (without spending 4771 money).

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010



Legit Cyberpunk

Coxswain Balls posted:

What's wrong with the knockoff units? The one I got from DX has worked great for over a year and didn't force me to buy another controller I didn't need. The only hassle is a slight modification to the official device driver so it sees the 3rd party unit, but otherwise it functions exactly the same as the first party adapter.

Yeah, there's some jiggery pokery you have to do with reinstalling and disabling/enabling the driver every time you unplug it, but it works fine when it's going.

Hace
Feb 13, 2012

<<Mobius 1, Engage.>>


Beast posted:

This may seem like a silly question but - is there any advantage or disadvantage anyone can see over picking this

https://www.asus.com/Graphics_Cards/GTX760DCMOC2GD5/

over

http://www.asus.com/Graphics_Cards/GTX760DC2OC2GD5/

to replace a now sadly showing its age a bit Asus 6850?

Only reason I'm considering the mini version is that I built my pc (using this amazing thread) about 2 1/2 years ago and in ATX... The only upgrade I can foresee in the future is possibly moving to a smaller case and I had a thought that if I bought the mini version I could use that whereas a full size card may have issues. Or am I over thinking this? The non mini is currnently £172 at amazon.

And also I presume I should see some benefit in the upgrade - paired with i5 2500K, 8gb and SSD. Gaming at 1080p.

The larger card is still going to fit in the vast majority of cases, even most ITX cases will support it.

The tradeoff between the two cards is the the smaller one will run hotter and louder, since it only has one fan that will have to work hard to keep the card cool. The smaller also likely has less overclocking headroom.

Beast
May 2, 2004
thirsty for justice

Many thanks - will grab the full size version after payday!

letgomyAgo
Aug 6, 2012


I'd like to plug the Antec GX700 for the OP. I built a system in one last fall and it was a really nice case at a very cheap price point. 50 bucks gets tool-less and customizable HDD trays, fits 11.5' GPUs, can fit a hyper 212, support for dual 120mm top fans or a 240mm rad. Even the materials were really good for a budget case. Metal clip on face plates for the drive bays, metal guard for the front intake. The asthetic is nice in my opinion as well, everything painted in a sort of military olive drab with a flip up access switch for the fan controller.

A good case I would plug for anyone looking for a good budget solution.

http://www.antec.com/product.php?id=706394&fid=5022074

letgomyAgo fucked around with this message at Apr 10, 2014 around 01:15

Rude Mechanical
Jul 19, 2004



The Lord Bude posted:

Personally for me the improved picture quality of an IPS trumps the improved frame rate of 130hz any day, unless you're a pro gamer. You will need a 770 at least or maybe a 780 to be consistently hitting 120 fps at max details. Our gpu recommendations all assume 60hz monitor.

Ignoarints posted:

I'd probably even say 780+ for max settings on most modern games. I'd say 120 fps is downright rare even (at max settings). AA is a big contributor though.

But that might not might mean 80 or 90 fps isn't pretty awesome compared to 60 fps, but I wouldn't know. My goal this year is to get a qnix (or equivalent) and run 1440p at 80 or so fps at max settings, as cheap as possible. Really I just want a 27" 1440p but I know the moment I overclock it the bug will strike again. My tentative plan is two 770's. For chemondelay I'm not sure 120 fps is a super realistic goal for a reasonably priced single GPU, at least right now. At least without performance tradeoffs that wouldn't be worth it.

Honestly a solid, actual 60 fps that never dips, drops, or stutters is pretty drat awesome.

The thread's moved on, but I just wanted to say thanks for the advice. I haven't owned a gaming PC in years, so I have no real sense of where to pitch my expectations. I'll stick with the 760/U2412M. I might have been able to justify stretching to a 770, but I don't really want to go beyond that.

deimos
Nov 30, 2006

Forget it man this bat is whack, it's got poobrain!


Holy mother of god, did anyone else see the Recommended requirements for Watch Dogs PC?

Recommended:
OS: Windows Vista (SP2), Windows 7 (SP1) or Windows 8 (Please note that we only support 64 bit OSs.)
Processor: Eight core - Intel Core i7-3770 @3.5 GHz or AMD FX-8350 X8 @ 4 GHz
Memory: 8 GB RAM
Graphics: DirectX 11 graphics card with 2 GB Video RAM - Nvidia Geforce GTX 560 ti or AMD Radeon HD 7850
DirectX: Version 11
Hard Drive: 25 GB available space
Sound Card: DirectX 9.0c Compatible Sound Card with Latest Drivers

Supported Video Cards at Time of Release: nVidia GeForce GTX460 or better, GT500, GT600, GT700 series; AMD Radeon HD5850 or better, HD6000, HD7000, R7 and R9 series Intel® Iris™ Pro HD 5200


Those are some weaksauce GPU requirements to go with that huge CPU requirement.

Hace
Feb 13, 2012

<<Mobius 1, Engage.>>


The miniumum CPU requirement is a Q8400. I get that it's built on DX11, but I'll be very surprised if it's actually that demanding.

z06ck
Dec 22, 2010



That's pretty funny cause the 3770 is not 8 core

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT CORTANA WILL BE A CIRCLE AND NOT THE ACTUAL SEXY WOMAN FROM THE GAME.


letgomyAgo posted:

I'd like to plug the Antec GX700 for the OP. I built a system in one last fall and it was a really nice case at a very cheap price point. 50 bucks gets tool-less and customizable HDD trays, fits 11.5' GPUs, can fit a hyper 212, support for dual 120mm top fans or a 240mm rad. Even the materials were really good for a budget case. Metal clip on face plates for the drive bays, metal guard for the front intake. The asthetic is nice in my opinion as well, everything painted in a sort of military olive drab with a flip up access switch for the fan controller.

A good case I would plug for anyone looking for a good budget solution.

http://www.antec.com/product.php?id=706394&fid=5022074

we aren't in the habit of recommending leet gamer crap that looks like it was designed by an acid tripping toddler and has crazy pants fan configurations , sorry.

look at the recommendations we already have. Do you see a trend emerging?

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT CORTANA WILL BE A CIRCLE AND NOT THE ACTUAL SEXY WOMAN FROM THE GAME.


deimos posted:

Holy mother of god, did anyone else see the Recommended requirements for Watch Dogs PC?

Recommended:
OS: Windows Vista (SP2), Windows 7 (SP1) or Windows 8 (Please note that we only support 64 bit OSs.)
Processor: Eight core - Intel Core i7-3770 @3.5 GHz or AMD FX-8350 X8 @ 4 GHz
Memory: 8 GB RAM
Graphics: DirectX 11 graphics card with 2 GB Video RAM - Nvidia Geforce GTX 560 ti or AMD Radeon HD 7850
DirectX: Version 11
Hard Drive: 25 GB available space
Sound Card: DirectX 9.0c Compatible Sound Card with Latest Drivers

Supported Video Cards at Time of Release: nVidia GeForce GTX460 or better, GT500, GT600, GT700 series; AMD Radeon HD5850 or better, HD6000, HD7000, R7 and R9 series Intel® Iris™ Pro HD 5200


Those are some weaksauce GPU requirements to go with that huge CPU requirement.

the new middle earth game is even crazier... It recommends a core i7 3770 and a gtx670. Minimum is i5 750 and gtx 560.

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT CORTANA WILL BE A CIRCLE AND NOT THE ACTUAL SEXY WOMAN FROM THE GAME.


z06ck posted:

That's pretty funny cause the 3770 is not 8 core

they're counting hyper threading as being 2 cores so as not to confuse consumers with facts.

Ignoarints
Nov 26, 2010


The Lord Bude posted:

we aren't in the habit of recommending leet gamer crap that looks like it was designed by an acid tripping toddler and has crazy pants fan configurations , sorry.

look at the recommendations we already have. Do you see a trend emerging?



Was expecting the worst but honestly that gx700 doesn't look so bad if you like a pseudo "military" color scheme. I've seen waaaaaay riced out poo poo happily bought by people in the last thread. But I much prefer a black rectangle. I got owned for admitting liking the antec "300 two" though, even though I still stand by it for the price.

That gx700 can do big radiators though

Ignoarints fucked around with this message at Apr 10, 2014 around 02:26

deimos
Nov 30, 2006

Forget it man this bat is whack, it's got poobrain!


Ignoarints posted:

That gx700 can do big radiators though

It has less radiator area than some mATX cases like the 350D or the Arc Mini R2.

Ignoarints
Nov 26, 2010


deimos posted:

It has less radiator area than some mATX cases like the 350D or the Arc Mini R2.

as opposed to the three hundred two*** I very much forgot to say

SithDrummer
Jun 8, 2005
Hi Rocky!

Hace posted:

The 270X blows the 660 out of the water, and you should be able to find Rosewill Capstone 450W at around $50 on Newegg.

You also might want to look for the R7 265, which is only $160 but still performs very well.
Awesome, thanks for this advice! I'll do some research on the R7 265 before making my decision.

The Lord Bude
May 23, 2007

I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT CORTANA WILL BE A CIRCLE AND NOT THE ACTUAL SEXY WOMAN FROM THE GAME.


Looks like Newegg has just started shipping to Australian customers. Australian Goons can save hundreds of dollars on the components for a new PC, even with shipping factored in. Remember though that American consumer protection law is complete garbage, so do this at your own risk - you won't have nearly the same level of protection if something goes wrong with your stuff down the line.

Rude Mechanical
Jul 19, 2004



The Lord Bude posted:

Looks like Newegg has just started shipping to Australian customers. Australian Goons can save hundreds of dollars on the components for a new PC, even with shipping factored in. Remember though that American consumer protection law is complete garbage, so do this at your own risk - you won't have nearly the same level of protection if something goes wrong with your stuff down the line.

Hahaha, great news but terrible timing. I'll just have to console myself with the fact that buying domestically brings me under the ACL.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Elliptical Dick
Oct 11, 2008

I made the bald man cry
into the turtle stew


Ignoarints posted:

Video card is an easy one for games. You can probably spend half of your new budget on this without wasting money. 770 or 280x, etc

The rest is more up to you. Do you want to overclock? This will have a bearing on video editing, but so would hyperthreading. Overclocking say a 4670k would require a z87 motherboard, or you could go i7-4770 non-k* for hyperthreading. An overclocked 4670k would be better for some games over an i7-4770 non k. At the very least you could up it to a 4670 non k if the price difference isn't much.

Perhaps with your new video card choice you can justify a cheap 1440p, like a qnix.

*or xeon 1230/1240 v3 variant, although jury is still out on cheaper motherboards

Edit: I'd like to add what I'd personally do even though I wasn't going to originally because its pretty much at odds with the first build, but maybe it would interest you.

- Double the motherboard budget for a z87 w/ wireless, SLI, good power management (~+$80 or maybe a little more) (Dropping wireless adapter -$36)
- $60-$70 cooler depending on what fits in that case
- Price match Microcenter on the 4570 to get a 4670k for the same price (ie. staples.com)
- Up it to 650W or so, like a Capstone, or whatever is on sale and good. Probably +$15
- Replace video card with 2x GTX 760's +$300

This should come out to around $420-$440 more depending on motherboard. Now, however, you will have some serious GPU power that will on a lot of games will not utilize fully at 1080p (at least, definitely not fps-wise). I'd pocket the rest to pick up a 1440p qnix or equivalent as soon as possible. I'd overclock everything fully (and I would delid)

This is just what I'd do personally if I wanted matx based on the original build . As I said in the original post, simply going 770/280x will be more than enough for a lot of people. This is simply the most cost effective manner I can imagine to using the new budget, while keeping as much the same format as possible. What I posted first is probably more applicable.

Thanks a bunch for your thoughts. I'll probably end up upgrading the video card and maybe buy a nicer monitor. Overclocking is not a thing I'm looking at because I don't think it will benefit me much. Also since this would be the first computer I'd be building I'm not sure I should go straight for overly complicated setups. The SLI mobo + doubling up on the GPU sounds good too though, because I'm seriously considering dropping my console for gaming as I'm hearing nothing but poo poo about this generation's machines.

  • Locked thread
«202 »