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ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

One thing I would like to see in a city builder is the ability to commission certain developments. Letting markets fill in zones is cool, but sometimes governments make specific deals to build specific things, like the biggest skyscrapers, and other mega projects. See also: Public housing. It would be cool to see local markets react to a bunch of public housing, or a massive tower being plopped nearby. Actually, I don't know how it is elsewhere, but in NYC most really tall buildings and big developments need a ton of local government approval before they can even break ground. More so than smaller construction.

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nielsm
Jun 1, 2009




Fallen Rib

ToastyPotato posted:

One thing I would like to see in a city builder is the ability to commission certain developments. Letting markets fill in zones is cool, but sometimes governments make specific deals to build specific things, like the biggest skyscrapers, and other mega projects. See also: Public housing. It would be cool to see local markets react to a bunch of public housing, or a massive tower being plopped nearby. Actually, I don't know how it is elsewhere, but in NYC most really tall buildings and big developments need a ton of local government approval before they can even break ground. More so than smaller construction.

True. While SimCity 4 (and 3000) do have big, ploppable, monumental buildings, all they do is sit there and suck money while providing a bit of YIMBY effect. They don't actually provide anything to the city, be it homes or jobs.
It'd be cool to have that kind of "projects" that required cooperation from public (i.e. player) and private investors to get off the ground. It could perhaps be initiated from either side, the player could indicate they wanted a monumental building and get bids from investors, or an investor could approach the player with a business plan. Ideally, these projects could also fail for reasons, maybe general recession, competition from other sides, private investor failing, or whatever.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

I'm still very wary of agent based traffic. It seems that some of the problems with SC2013 were entirely inherent to agents.

For instance: How will an agent reroute to avoid heavy traffic? If the road segment doesn't know how much traffic it's getting, you can't really recalculate an A* or Dijkstra array with higher weights to avoid it.

You are going to give your agents full knowledge of where they PERMANENTLY live and work, right? And agents won't simply be spawned as tabula rasa from buildings each morning and evening?

nielsm
Jun 1, 2009




Fallen Rib

Iunnrais posted:

I'm still very wary of agent based traffic. It seems that some of the problems with SC2013 were entirely inherent to agents.

For instance: How will an agent reroute to avoid heavy traffic? If the road segment doesn't know how much traffic it's getting, you can't really recalculate an A* or Dijkstra array with higher weights to avoid it.

I think using traffic data from the previous simulation iterations would work fine. So the agents would sort-of base their route on how bad traffic was the day before. Perhaps give each agent a preference for shorter versus faster, perhaps also versus more scenic or other factors, so everybody wouldn't just cycle between two different routes every other trip.

Ofaloaf
Feb 15, 2013



Where does that music from the Road to Alpha video come from? It's incredibly relaxing.

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


Tytan posted:

Just wanted to say it's great to see a developer who seems to really "get" what people want from a city builder, and I love that you're taking people's suggestions on board.

Just a simple thing and it's probably something you've already thought about, but it'd be great to be able to paint/zone parks instead of having set ones to use. One thing that annoyed me in SC2013 (among many things) was that you could never get the parks to fit nicely next to the roads, they always looked odd. Would be nice to be able to fill the awkward little gaps.

Also, will there be a way to make buildings 'historic' like in SC4, assuming that buildings will be demolished/rebuilt over time? Or will there be an option for ploppable permanent buildings? (Obviously the simulation stuff would take priority over this, but I like my pretty cities!)

I'm already planning on a park zone. They will then be generated procedurally.

Marking buildings as historic would be a great way to keep procedural buildings that you like.


nielsm posted:

True. While SimCity 4 (and 3000) do have big, ploppable, monumental buildings, all they do is sit there and suck money while providing a bit of YIMBY effect. They don't actually provide anything to the city, be it homes or jobs.
It'd be cool to have that kind of "projects" that required cooperation from public (i.e. player) and private investors to get off the ground. It could perhaps be initiated from either side, the player could indicate they wanted a monumental building and get bids from investors, or an investor could approach the player with a business plan. Ideally, these projects could also fail for reasons, maybe general recession, competition from other sides, private investor failing, or whatever.

I'll think about I how I could incroporate such a mechanic.

Iunnrais posted:

I'm still very wary of agent based traffic. It seems that some of the problems with SC2013 were entirely inherent to agents.

For instance: How will an agent reroute to avoid heavy traffic? If the road segment doesn't know how much traffic it's getting, you can't really recalculate an A* or Dijkstra array with higher weights to avoid it.

You are going to give your agents full knowledge of where they PERMANENTLY live and work, right? And agents won't simply be spawned as tabula rasa from buildings each morning and evening?

The road segments already know how many cars there are on them.
I'm currently doing a kind of cached, distributed A* where routes are kept for other cars and are invalidated after a while.
So the system might not instantly react to changed traffic and update weights, but after a while it will (which is also realistic).

Citizens have permanent and unique homes and workplaces, their agents will travel between those.
SC13's traffic simulation is actually more of a liquid simulation where homes are sources and workplaces are drains, in the evening the other way around.
I will do none of that.

Ofaloaf posted:

Where does that music from the Road to Alpha video come from? It's incredibly relaxing.

It's "River Meditation" by audionautix.com

Pentecoastal Elites
Feb 27, 2007








Between this and Enemy Starfighter it's like all of my childhood dreams are coming true.

Anyway, in terms of density management have you considered letting demand determine density then allowing the player to paint height limitations? It might be a solution, and is kind of like an actual city. Or maybe controlling it in the negative with height allowances would be more fun?

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


Onion Knight posted:

Anyway, in terms of density management have you considered letting demand determine density then allowing the player to paint height limitations?

This is exactly how density will work. Based on demand and a tool to paint max. height.

Fujoshisaur
Sep 5, 2006

It doesn't matter now, come on get happy

I'm glad you posted this thread - I've been subscribed to your newsletter since you announced the game, and I can't get enough! Even though good ones are few and far between, I am crazy about city builders of any sort, and it's been a long time since there's been anything that tries to take on the macro scope the SimCity games usually have. There've been good micromanagement city builders (the Anno games, Tropico 3/4, and Banished) but I think SimCity 4 is still the last large-scale city builder that was any good.

I know a million people have told you this already, but I can't wait to buy your game!

e: Also, I love the laid back guitar in your devlog videos.

Fujoshisaur fucked around with this message at Apr 12, 2014 around 14:26

ModestMuse
Jun 25, 2011

I see a ship in the harbor
I can and shall obey
But if it wasn't for your GPS
I'd be a heavenly person today


So if we donate at least $6 on your site, we can show our support now, and will get access to the Alpha when it's available?

If SimCity 2013 taught me anything, it's that I want to preorder a different city builder game.

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


Yes, if you donate via PayPal, because then I have your email address and can send you the alpha when it's ready.

I also don't like preorders, that's why I only offer this indirect way and don't market it as a preorder.

Oscar Romeo Romeo
Apr 16, 2010



Great to see this thread. I've been following the blog for a fortnight now and have been enjoying the updates.

Sri.Theo
Apr 16, 2008


anselm_eickhoff posted:

Hmm I don't think it would be feasible to collect all that information for each street section all the time, but you could start a query and get the exact result with maybe even more info after 1 ingame day.

Just want to say I wish you lots of luck!

And also will there be terraced housing in the game? I'd love to create a city like Copenhagen or London!

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


New update, kind of:

The Road to Alpha, Week 6 - Intermezzo & Community Activity

(Sri.Theo: Yes!)

buglord
Jul 31, 2010



Buglord

anselm_eickhoff posted:

I'm already planning on a park zone. They will then be generated procedurally.

This got me really excited for some reason. I'm looking forward to seeing how the agriculture zoning works too. I'd like to make a nice rural town.

Jamfrost
Jul 20, 2013

I'm too busy thinkin' about my baby. Oh I ain't got time for nothin' else.


Slime TrainerS

Welp, I'm tossing in some names then.

drunkill
Sep 25, 2007


friendship is magic
in a pony paradise
don't you judge me

Fallen Rib

Hey, cool to see you join here and make a thread.

I saw your original post on the simcity subreddit announcing you'd be making this and have loosely followed updates to your website.

I just want to direct your attention to a thread in Ask/Tell here about traffic engineering, it is long so skip or flixk through it but I think it could be a bit of inspiration or a place to ask actual traffic engineers a few questions (of course your making a game and some stuff in the thread would be too realistic and perhaps not fun to do)
http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...=265&perpage=40

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


Awesome thanks, I will use it for reference and if it is still active maybe ask something myself.

drunkill
Sep 25, 2007


friendship is magic
in a pony paradise
don't you judge me

Fallen Rib

Just wondering how you'll set the game up, being from Germany you'll probably call trams Trams or Light Rail and (hopefully) not streetcars, but will there be an option to have left hand drive cities or roundabouts or even bikelanes as a road/vehicle type?

pistolshit posted:

I notice you say in the FAQ that roads will be customizable. Can you go into any more detail on what you mean? It would be really cool if you could essentially build a road out of a kit of parts either in plan view or as a cross section. Something like the below image. Where you could maybe drag and drop things like drive lanes, bike lanes, medians, Right-of-way(to allow for future expansion), planting strips, side walks, etc. And then make them wider or narrower based on your preference. Certain aspects of the road could then inform what kind of buildings pop up. Wide lanes and no side walk creates out-lot style commercial, narrower lanes with a bike lane and a wide sidewalk would create something akin to new urbanism or traditional development, etc.

Then again, only city-planning nerds might really be interested in that level of granularity.



You might like this website then, allows you to customise a cross-section of a street, add lanes, bike paths, tram tracks and dividers and street furniture.
http://streetmix.net/-/124828
http://blog.streetmix.net/

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


drunkill posted:

Just wondering how you'll set the game up, being from Germany you'll probably call trams Trams or Light Rail and (hopefully) not streetcars, but will there be an option to have left hand drive cities or roundabouts or even bikelanes as a road/vehicle type?


You might like this website then, allows you to customise a cross-section of a street, add lanes, bike paths, tram tracks and dividers and street furniture.
http://streetmix.net/-/124828
http://blog.streetmix.net/


There will be all three: there's an option to switch to left hand driving, you will be able to build roundabouts and there will be bike lanes.

Streetmix has a nice interface, but I will do it differently. You'll see when I get around to it.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007

Wake up and
smell the murder.


anselm_eickhoff posted:

Yes, if you donate via PayPal, because then I have your email address and can send you the alpha when it's ready.

I also don't like preorders, that's why I only offer this indirect way and don't market it as a preorder.

I did this, plus threw in a little extra as a tip. Really loving the way this is shaping up.

Supraluminal
Feb 16, 2012


Just wanted to stop by and say good luck!

I have many fond memories of the SimCity series, and while SC4 is still theoretically usable I find I don't have the patience to baby it along these days. I've enjoyed some other vaguely similar sim games in the meantime, like Cities in Motion and Anno 2070, but it doesn't seem like anyone's come out with a really good integrated, full-scale city simulator yet.

So, looking forward to seeing how this turns out! I like a lot of your ideas and it seems like there's a lot of potential here.

Hexenritter
May 20, 2001

Buncha slack-jawed faggots around here



Our hopes and dreams are with you Anselm, I salute you.

Poil
Mar 17, 2007



drunkill posted:

Just wondering how you'll set the game up, being from Germany you'll probably call trams Trams or Light Rail and (hopefully) not streetcars, but will there be an option to have left hand drive cities or roundabouts or even bikelanes as a road/vehicle type?


You might like this website then, allows you to customise a cross-section of a street, add lanes, bike paths, tram tracks and dividers and street furniture.
http://streetmix.net/-/124828
http://blog.streetmix.net/

That picture really needs a second pair of tram tracks. And/or some elevated tracks above it. Tram tracks tend to clog easily if you have enough trams to fit the passengers in my experience.

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


New Update!

The Road to Alpha, Week 7 - First Signs of Gameplay Detected

i am kiss u now
Dec 26, 2005



College Slice


This looks so promising and again, it's nice to see a developer so involved with the community. Made a small donation to show my support.

queeb
Jun 10, 2004

m



Grimey Drawer


Dude. This looks fantastic.

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


IceLicker posted:

This looks so promising and again, it's nice to see a developer so involved with the community. Made a small donation to show my support.

Much appreciated!

Thanks for the kind words, everyone!

DrSunshine
Mar 23, 2009



Combining statistical simulation with agents sounds like a fantastic idea. It'll make up for the wonkiness of pure-agent based simulation while combating the tendency of statistical simulations to become static.

Jamfrost
Jul 20, 2013

I'm too busy thinkin' about my baby. Oh I ain't got time for nothin' else.


Slime TrainerS

I'm really liking what you've shown so far. And the size. I like the size.

Tytan
Sep 17, 2011

Som Muay Dtiet


Nice update. In the video you touched on the demands caused by neighbouring cities, any idea how that will work in the future? Will they require a physical connection at some point (highways, ports etc)?

clone on the phone
Aug 5, 2003



Yay competent city building! I'm looking forward to this and good luck to you with it!

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

I'm still skeptical of agent based simulation for large scale simulations like a city, but... I'll give it the benefit of the doubt for the moment.

Right now, you have things being provided by "neighboring cities". Are you going to offer region based play like SC4, or will all neighbors be implied, as in SC2k? I'd prefer a hybrid of the two... a "SimNation/SimWorld" outside your region, and then a region that is all your own.

I'm assuming that you are intending to require neighboring connections, and that neighbors won't be able to just magically supply you with food/resources/etc?

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


Jamfrost posted:

I'm really liking what you've shown so far. And the size. I like the size.

That's what she said.


Iunnrais posted:

I'm still skeptical of agent based simulation for large scale simulations like a city, but... I'll give it the benefit of the doubt for the moment.

Right now, you have things being provided by "neighboring cities". Are you going to offer region based play like SC4, or will all neighbors be implied, as in SC2k? I'd prefer a hybrid of the two... a "SimNation/SimWorld" outside your region, and then a region that is all your own.

I'm assuming that you are intending to require neighboring connections, and that neighbors won't be able to just magically supply you with food/resources/etc?

Right now, neighboring cities are abstract and invisible, but they will require connections.
Additionally there will be regional demand that is unlocked by train stations/highways and global demand that is unlocked by air or seaports.

Later on there might be the ability to connect multiple player-cities together.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Question about Agent/Statistical interaction.

Grocery Stores, right now, grow based on the statistical availability of food. What happens when there exists, according to the statistical model, a vast abundance of food... farms as far as the eye can see... but due to major traffic issues, only a tiny fraction of that food can actually reach your downtown area. Abandonment? What would prevent other supermarkets from trying to pop up based on the statistics? Will there be a sea of abandoned supermarkets downtown?

Poil
Mar 17, 2007



Iunnrais posted:

Question about Agent/Statistical interaction.

Grocery Stores, right now, grow based on the statistical availability of food. What happens when there exists, according to the statistical model, a vast abundance of food... farms as far as the eye can see... but due to major traffic issues, only a tiny fraction of that food can actually reach your downtown area. Abandonment? What would prevent other supermarkets from trying to pop up based on the statistics? Will there be a sea of abandoned supermarkets downtown?
Freight trams? It could work.

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


Additionally to the global demand, there will be something that models very local demand (could just be "heatmaps" or something similar).
So even if there is a global demand for food sales, vendors won't move in if there is no place that is easily/quickly reachable by customers.

Joda
Apr 24, 2010

When I'm off, I just like to really let go and have fun, y'know?



Fun Shoe

Looking forward to this game a lot. Looking awesome so far.

I assume electricity and water are given, but do you have any plans in terms of government services/quality of life stuff like hospitals, education, parks, police etc.?

Communist Zombie
Nov 1, 2011


When your doing videos in the future can you record the game while in a small resolution? Or atleast when your pointing fine UI details. Because in your latest video I had to switch it to HD resolution and the fullscreen for me to be able to easily read the RCI graphs.

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Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Please include some kind of pedestrian infrastructure too! Most cities in the world have large pedestrian downtowns, the typical Simcity model where everything is next to a big road only exists in a few American cities.

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