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anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


Happy New Year!



A Promising 2016

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Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"


Nice to see you ! Happy New Years.

Supraluminal
Feb 16, 2012


Hi Anselm! Sounds like you have some good plans to keep things moving forward. Good luck with everything, I'm still excited to see how it all turns out.

Even though it may seem early, I think you have the right idea to start work on more gameplay systems, and to start releasing builds. I'm just a web developer, not a desktop software guy, but I always find that if I spend too much time on architecture, tools, infrastructure, etc. I just end up with a great big edifice that doesn't end up doing what I actually need once I start filling in the functionality.

Terrorist Fistbump
Jan 29, 2009


Happy 2016! I'm excited to see some gameplay this year.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"


How come Michael left the project? You guys seemed to be working well together.

I'd love to be a select tester

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


Baronjutter: Michael unfortunately had to quit because of time-consuming unrelated issues.

A New Update Which Again Changes Everything!!

Blog Post: After just two years, I'm starting properly!

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"


Mama mia, almost starting over again.

Avenging Dentist
Oct 1, 2005

oh my god is that a circular saw that does not go in my mouth aaaaagh


As a developer who gets paid to write Javascript but vastly prefers C++, I think you made the right choice. C++11 (and even moreso, C++14) is vastly improved over C++98, and I find it a lot more comfortable to use than Javascript, even ignoring that C++ is miles ahead in terms of performance. C++ (and other compiled languages) makes it easy to reject obviously-wrong things early since they just plain won't compile.

I do recommend hooking up a scripting language pretty early on, since it makes it a lot easier to iterate on small behavioral changes. Lua's pretty common in gamedev, although I've been meaning to check out Julia one of these days, which seems much more to my liking. (Julia is designed to be a high-level language appropriate for scientific computing, so it should work pretty well in gamedev too.)

nielsm
Jun 1, 2009




Fallen Rib

anselm_eickhoff posted:

Baronjutter: Michael unfortunately had to quit because of time-consuming unrelated issues.

A New Update Which Again Changes Everything!!

Blog Post: After just two years, I'm starting properly!

Blog post posted:

The basic handling of game state, which is very compactly stored in RAM and can be dumped 1:1 onto the disk and then loaded again with almost no additional work required. This should make loading and saving super quick.
Seriously careful doing that.
Players will be exchanging savegames, and if you just blindly load and save blocks of memory, someone will probably try to find (and likely also discover) something that can be exploited to cause code execution or other bad behavior.
If you go that route, at the very least have a thorough integrity-check of loaded savegames.

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


Avenging Dentist posted:

As a developer who gets paid to write Javascript but vastly prefers C++, I think you made the right choice. C++11 (and even moreso, C++14) is vastly improved over C++98, and I find it a lot more comfortable to use than Javascript, even ignoring that C++ is miles ahead in terms of performance. C++ (and other compiled languages) makes it easy to reject obviously-wrong things early since they just plain won't compile.

I do recommend hooking up a scripting language pretty early on, since it makes it a lot easier to iterate on small behavioral changes. Lua's pretty common in gamedev, although I've been meaning to check out Julia one of these days, which seems much more to my liking. (Julia is designed to be a high-level language appropriate for scientific computing, so it should work pretty well in gamedev too.)

I'd rather get the main advantage of scripting languages (fast iteration and nice syntax) going in C++ and then have everything written in just one language - the only disadvantage is that now you need tooling for modding, but I plan to also make this as painless as possible.

nielsm posted:

Seriously careful doing that.
Players will be exchanging savegames, and if you just blindly load and save blocks of memory, someone will probably try to find (and likely also discover) something that can be exploited to cause code execution or other bad behavior.
If you go that route, at the very least have a thorough integrity-check of loaded savegames.

The game process will run in a pretty strict sandbox anyways, to prevent mods wreaking havoc (?) on the player's PC.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"


Listen dude, as long as you model parking in some respect this is all good.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007


Baronjutter posted:

Listen dude, as long as you model parking in some respect this is all good.

The literal definition of a single issue voter.

nielsm
Jun 1, 2009




Fallen Rib

Avenging Dentist posted:

I do recommend hooking up a scripting language pretty early on, since it makes it a lot easier to iterate on small behavioral changes. Lua's pretty common in gamedev, although I've been meaning to check out Julia one of these days, which seems much more to my liking. (Julia is designed to be a high-level language appropriate for scientific computing, so it should work pretty well in gamedev too.)

Lua is definitely a good language, especially since it's designed for embedding. And if you use Luajit for execution engine, you'll get near-native performance even.
The big disadvantrage is that for it to be any value at all, you have to develop all those interfaces modders would be working against. The only real way to do that well would be to dogfood it all the way and implement as many of the game's logic systems in Lua (or whatever) as reasonably possible.

Do consider how having the moddable part being one big C++ project will affect the types of mods you will see. First of all, it increases the (percieved) difficulty of entry, meaning the overall volume of mods will be less. Second, if the game logic is monolithic, a player can effectively only use one mod at a time.
Alternatively if you want mods to be more like mutations of singular aspects (similar to Cities Skylines) you would need to implement all the hook point interfaces anyway, and at that point the implementation cost of a scripting system isn't that much greater. In fact, using scripting would then avoid the hassles of working with DLLs/equivalents, and possibly promote transparency from modders.

But well, even if you do implement modding as monolithic, I'm sure that a modularized "container mod" would eventually get made. (I remember at one point finding a "mod generator" application for Quake 2, that essentially copy-pasted snippets of C code together, to get a mod with the mutations you wanted.)

Avenging Dentist
Oct 1, 2005

oh my god is that a circular saw that does not go in my mouth aaaaagh

anselm_eickhoff posted:

I'd rather get the main advantage of scripting languages (fast iteration and nice syntax) going in C++ and then have everything written in just one language - the only disadvantage is that now you need tooling for modding, but I plan to also make this as painless as possible.

That might not be possible. One of C++'s biggest weaknesses is that compilation times are much higher than other languages. Compare to something like GOAL which lets you edit game scripts and run them without even restarting the game.

HardDiskD
May 6, 2009

HaHAHhehehehuhehahehhahahhaue



Grimey Drawer

anselm_eickhoff posted:

A New Update Which Again Changes Everything!!

Blog Post: After just two years, I'm starting properly!

I really can't say I'm surprised that you've left Javascript because of performance issues. What I am surprised is that you had the balls to say gently caress it to a project two years in and apparently still have the steam to, firstly, not abandon it and secondly, be motivated to learn C++ to do it. Congrats on that. Just don't make it an habit!

Have you considered releasing the current build as a preview?

JeremoudCorbynejad
Jul 6, 2007



KillHour posted:

The literal definition of a single issue voter.

Quick Anselm, poo poo out a game that models parking and nothing else. You've got a guaranteed sale!

goatsestretchgoals
Jun 4, 2011

in soviet russia, you shove robot

Parking Simulator 2016 tops the Steam Germany charts for the 3rd week in a row.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007


That game has existed for decades.

http://www.gamesfreak.net/games/Traffic-block.html

crabrock
Aug 2, 2002

The crab is nature's gentleman.


Grimey Drawer

nah he needs a game that is just a parking lot with one way in and one way out. when the parking lot fills up you watch cars drive around looking for spots, and then you collect your money when they leave. you lose money every time a potential customer gets angry at the lack of parking and drives off.

Nition
Feb 25, 2006

You really want to know?


Make it like a Theme Park/Theme Hospital style sim but the only thing you can build is more parking spaces and maybe parking meters.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"


I could absolutely see a german sim where you're a parking lot attendant and have to do basic upkeep/cleaning, ticket illegally parked cars, call for tow trucks and so on.

Sri.Theo
Apr 16, 2008


crabrock posted:

nah he needs a game that is just a parking lot with one way in and one way out. when the parking lot fills up you watch cars drive around looking for spots, and then you collect your money when they leave. you lose money every time a potential customer gets angry at the lack of parking and drives off.

Surely he wants to get rid of the need for car car parks altogether?

Thirsty Dog
May 31, 2007



This seems like a massive change and one that I would suggest severely threatens the chance of this game ever being finished.

Actually finishing stuff is the hard part.

JeremoudCorbynejad
Jul 6, 2007



Anselm, any chance you can wrap up what you have at the moment into a little plaything so we can paint roads and zones (and spawn cars)? Or would that itself be a ton of work and not worth it?

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


JeremoudCorbynejad posted:

Anselm, any chance you can wrap up what you have at the moment into a little plaything so we can paint roads and zones (and spawn cars)? Or would that itself be a ton of work and not worth it?

A lot of work actually, I was thinking about it... :/

Update:

Dane, one of the two composers working on Citybound wrote an update about his work!
He doesn't have an account here, but if you have questions, I'll forward them to him.

Anselm

nielsm
Jun 1, 2009




Fallen Rib

anselm_eickhoff posted:

A lot of work actually, I was thinking about it... :/

Update:

Dane, one of the two composers working on Citybound wrote an update about his work!
He doesn't have an account here, but if you have questions, I'll forward them to him.

Anselm

A shame. Oh well...

A question/thought about the music: Sim City 2000 did some interesting things with music, I think. First is that music was not constant, but rather just started at some points. I'm not sure what all the triggers were, but it seems it would be triggered by something.
Second, it had many versions and variations of each tune. You'd have some very short ones that just play part of the main theme softly, and then the long ones that fully develop the theme and variations on it. That definitely made it more interesting to listen to, and I don't think I've seen anything really like that in other games in the genre since.
Meanwhile other, newer games in other genres do do similar things: Layered music where layers/instruments fade in and out depending on the action (Plants vs Zombies is a good example), and I like that. Please consider it

IAmKale
Jun 6, 2007

やらないか


Fun Shoe

This music is giving me Animal Crossing and (for some weird reason) Chrono Cross vibes. Overall I like it, it definitely feels like music representative of fall or winter.

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


nielsm posted:

A shame. Oh well...

A question/thought about the music: Sim City 2000 did some interesting things with music, I think. First is that music was not constant, but rather just started at some points. I'm not sure what all the triggers were, but it seems it would be triggered by something.
Second, it had many versions and variations of each tune. You'd have some very short ones that just play part of the main theme softly, and then the long ones that fully develop the theme and variations on it. That definitely made it more interesting to listen to, and I don't think I've seen anything really like that in other games in the genre since.
Meanwhile other, newer games in other genres do do similar things: Layered music where layers/instruments fade in and out depending on the action (Plants vs Zombies is a good example), and I like that. Please consider it

From Dane:
I'll have to research the sim city 2000 soundtrack and how it coincided with the flags/triggers to give the soundtrack more variations. It might not be practical if we're doing seasonal music. We'll discuss it.


IAmKale posted:

This music is giving me Animal Crossing and (for some weird reason) Chrono Cross vibes. Overall I like it, it definitely feels like music representative of fall or winter.

From Dane:
Oh man, Chrono Trigger is one of my all-time favorite games. My favorite piece of music is 12,000BC, with several very close seconds.

nielsm
Jun 1, 2009




Fallen Rib

anselm_eickhoff posted:

From Dane:
I'll have to research the sim city 2000 soundtrack and how it coincided with the flags/triggers to give the soundtrack more variations. It might not be practical if we're doing seasonal music. We'll discuss it.

Honestly I think my main point was, perhaps you don't need music playing constantly. Sometimes just the environmental sounds is plenty of soundtrack Or put otherwise, silence is also an appropriate choice for background at times.

(The music I've heard is great, but any game soundtrack will tend to get repetitive after playing for hours straight, so dynamic variation and occasional silence can perhaps help increase the longevity of the soundtrack.)

Bogan Krkic
Oct 31, 2010

Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.


Honestly, the first thing I do in a game like this is turn off the music and play my own.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007


Normally, I would agree, but sim city always had fantastic music I could never get tired of.

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


nielsm posted:

Honestly I think my main point was, perhaps you don't need music playing constantly. Sometimes just the environmental sounds is plenty of soundtrack Or put otherwise, silence is also an appropriate choice for background at times.

(The music I've heard is great, but any game soundtrack will tend to get repetitive after playing for hours straight, so dynamic variation and occasional silence can perhaps help increase the longevity of the soundtrack.)

Dane:
That is our plan. You are completely right with the repetition. Unless the tracks are very minimal, you will note their patterns and grow bored of them. The seasons will have a set time they run before they change. The length of the tracks do not have set length, so any time left over will be silence with just the ambient sound until the next track plays or the season changes. At times this will be several minutes. Anselm mentioned that as a main idea early on; I should have mentioned that to be more informative.

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


Servus zusammen!

Endlich mal wieder ein bisschen was neues:

Now in German: Eine kleine Statusberichterstattung

Hollow Talk
Feb 2, 2014


anselm_eickhoff posted:

Servus zusammen!

Endlich mal wieder ein bisschen was neues:

Now in German: Eine kleine Statusberichterstattung

I always find it interesting how somebody's voice (also their written voice) changes when they switch language! The only problem I see is that this will make it harder for people who will have to run this through a translator or some such, which are probably a majority here. The progress on the rewriting looks good, by the way!

Knifegrab
Jul 30, 2014

Gadzooks! I'm terrified of this little child who is going to stab me with a knife. I must wrest the knife away from his control and therefore gain the upperhand.


Hollow Talk posted:

I always find it interesting how somebody's voice (also their written voice) changes when they switch language! The only problem I see is that this will make it harder for people who will have to run this through a translator or some such, which are probably a majority here. The progress on the rewriting looks good, by the way!

Check the date.

nielsm
Jun 1, 2009




Fallen Rib

anselm_eickhoff posted:

Servus zusammen!

Endlich mal wieder ein bisschen was neues:

Now in German: Eine kleine Statusberichterstattung

Omvendt synes jeg nu man må konstatere, at man som skribent eller programmør kan udtrykke sig næsten lige hurtigt på alle sprog man er erfaren med. På den måde er byrden ikke meget større ved at skrive på engelsk frem for sit modersmål, eller C++ frem for et dynamisk sprog, men målgruppen (internationale læsere, eller en computer) kan måske i aggregat vinde betydeligt mere end forfatteren har tabt ved at arbejde i et mindre vant sprog. Derfor er valget med at arbejde i C++ formentlig klogt, men at kommunikere på tysk? Nah, det taber den internationale læsergruppe for meget ved.

The cost/effort of authoring in a language you may not be entirely fluent in, whether it's C++ or English, may be higher, but the gain for the reader, whether it's a computer or an international audience, can quickly outweigh that. For that reason, communicating in German isn't congruent with rewriting the project in C++. So nah, try harder next time!

Hollow Talk
Feb 2, 2014


Knifegrab posted:

Check the date.

I actually forgot.

On the other hand, my point about voices stands, the German gave an interesting impression, almost perky in tone!

nielsm posted:

Omvendt synes jeg nu man må konstatere, at man som skribent eller programmør kan udtrykke sig næsten lige hurtigt på alle sprog man er erfaren med. På den måde er byrden ikke meget større ved at skrive på engelsk frem for sit modersmål, eller C++ frem for et dynamisk sprog, men målgruppen (internationale læsere, eller en computer) kan måske i aggregat vinde betydeligt mere end forfatteren har tabt ved at arbejde i et mindre vant sprog. Derfor er valget med at arbejde i C++ formentlig klogt, men at kommunikere på tysk? Nah, det taber den internationale læsergruppe for meget ved.

The cost/effort of authoring in a language you may not be entirely fluent in, whether it's C++ or English, may be higher, but the gain for the reader, whether it's a computer or an international audience, can quickly outweigh that. For that reason, communicating in German isn't congruent with rewriting the project in C++. So nah, try harder next time!

Eh, det er vist ikke hans problem når mennesker kun taler et enkelt sprog?!

Hollow Talk fucked around with this message at Apr 2, 2016 around 15:05

anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


Hollow Talk posted:

I actually forgot.

On the other hand, my point about voices stands, the German gave an interesting impression, almost perky in tone!


Yes, interesting observation!

And btw, as every year, there were so many people that believed me that I started to worry about loosing people... evil me would totally say "screw them, natural selection"

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"


wo ist der Parkplatz?!

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anselm_eickhoff
Mar 1, 2014


Hi everyone! Just a short update!

How I'm getting along

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