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Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

When it comes to traffic simulation, how many "trip types" do you have?

To my knowledge, in SC4, there were three types of traffic. "Morning Commute to Work", "Evening Commute Home", and "Industrial Goods Heading Off The Map (and then vanishing)"

Now, I understand fully why there's a seperate morning and evening commute-- that's interesting. I also think there's room for traffic to stores to buy things-- walmarts, and big malls are MAJOR traffic generators in real life, and its not because they employ a lot of people. But this traffic likely should be segregated from commuting traffic. Midday or weekend traffic mode maybe? It'd have to handle round trips.

You could also throw in recreational traffic that heads to parks. And if you're doing that, tourist traffic that starts off map, goes to a hotel, then goes to parks/stores/etc, then back off the map again. This would build up airport traffic and hotel districts.

Midday traffic could probably stand to have higher road capacity to simulate people going shopping/tourism over the course of the entire day, not just during a single rush hour.

SC4's "traffic bonus" to retail stores really annoyed me because they didn't generate traffic themselves. Doing this might help a lot. A midday traffic bonus to retail would work a lot better than commuting traffic granting that bonus.

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Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

anselm_eickhoff posted:

I basically want to do all of this.
For every need that a citizen or tourist or business or whatever have, they will actually need to go there and get it.

So, followup: SC4 only did commuting and freight for what are clearly CPU reasons. Heck, on big cities, SC4 -still- chugs just pathfinding what it has. How will you handle this? How often will you update?

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Okay, now that you're saying the traffic will happen based on time of day, aligned exactly to the simulation's time of day...

My favorite tool in SC4 is the traffic analysis query, where I click a road segment and it shows me the full route of every vehicle that passes through that tile, and I have to click a button to designate whether I want to see morning or evening traffic. Will this tool be available in your game? Will only the time of day we're currently in be available to query?

I personally think the method of "just calculate routes, then spawn widjets on the road based on density" is a fine method to use. This design choice seems weird, and prone to SimCity2013 problems...

I don't put much faith in agents as a simulation method. SC4's NAM is pretty good, just needs more traffic types.

Sorry to keep harping on this, but in my opinion, the traffic simulation is the absolute most important aspect of the simulation. It practically IS the city-- the living part, anyway. The part you simulate.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

I'm still very wary of agent based traffic. It seems that some of the problems with SC2013 were entirely inherent to agents.

For instance: How will an agent reroute to avoid heavy traffic? If the road segment doesn't know how much traffic it's getting, you can't really recalculate an A* or Dijkstra array with higher weights to avoid it.

You are going to give your agents full knowledge of where they PERMANENTLY live and work, right? And agents won't simply be spawned as tabula rasa from buildings each morning and evening?

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

I'm still skeptical of agent based simulation for large scale simulations like a city, but... I'll give it the benefit of the doubt for the moment.

Right now, you have things being provided by "neighboring cities". Are you going to offer region based play like SC4, or will all neighbors be implied, as in SC2k? I'd prefer a hybrid of the two... a "SimNation/SimWorld" outside your region, and then a region that is all your own.

I'm assuming that you are intending to require neighboring connections, and that neighbors won't be able to just magically supply you with food/resources/etc?

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Question about Agent/Statistical interaction.

Grocery Stores, right now, grow based on the statistical availability of food. What happens when there exists, according to the statistical model, a vast abundance of food... farms as far as the eye can see... but due to major traffic issues, only a tiny fraction of that food can actually reach your downtown area. Abandonment? What would prevent other supermarkets from trying to pop up based on the statistics? Will there be a sea of abandoned supermarkets downtown?

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

anselm_eickhoff posted:

Additionally to the global demand, there will be something that models very local demand (could just be "heatmaps" or something similar).
So even if there is a global demand for food sales, vendors won't move in if there is no place that is easily/quickly reachable by customers.

Local demand, yes, that makes sense... but what about local supply? Again, the situation where there's plenty of global supply, but maybe there's only a single tiny road leading into one part of town and it's flooded with traffic 24/7.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

I don't want to have to deal with citizens groups and bureaucracy, but I do want access to all the fiddly bits that those groups would be influenced by (height limits, etc).

Custom zoning will be the greatest thing ever. Only grocery stores here, general retail there, offices on top of retail in the other place, residential over shops somewhere else...

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

drunkill posted:

Or Open TTD but for metro/suburban networks instead of intercity.

Will citybound be set in a particular time period or just be a generic modern setting? I suppose modders could make alternate building styles and modes of transportation for earlier (or future) eras.

I think it'd be cool to start in the 1800s with horses and carts and pedestrians only, and evolve technological advances at your own pace. SC2k's method of tying advance to actual years doesn't work, because you go through FAR too much time in a city sim to get stuff done. But if you could hit a button to advance the simulated era (and bring with it cars [or flying cars!], power plants, etc) I think it'd be perfect.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Shibawanko posted:

Personally I wouldn't care for the idea of time periods and stuff, it would make it a bit too much like Age of Empires or something and less like a landscaper. I'd generally avoid the Simcity Societies/Impressions route where puzzle and strategy game mechanics are wedged into a city builder, since it tends to take away from the core. The gameplay should probably just focus on infrastructure and aesthetics.

Here's a screenshot from Edushi for inspiration:


No, it'd still be a landscaper, it'd just allow for what KIND of landscaping you're doing. And allow to shift the appearance of the landscaping over time.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

The main entertainment... okay, lets be frank, the ONLY real entertainment I got from water systems in SC4 was isolating industrial area networks either with water treatment plants or simply having dedicated pumps that don't spread the industrial sludge throughout the city. I do think that this isolation planning is enjoyable. I wonder if there's a way to keep that but not have to drag out plumbing for everywhere else?

Having it be a growth limiter along with Power is also fine, and could be added to the landscaping. Simcity has never offered a reservoir, for instance, and reservoirs can also double as Parks if you take care of them properly.

As for garbage... I don't think there's really ANY enjoyment to be found here. Having to increasingly add landfills over time just... ugh. And waste burning plants aren't much better. I could do without garbage management quite frankly.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Speaking of that... I wonder if it might be possible to still have a game and yet not be quite so libertarian. Make people actually willing to put up with high taxes in order to have a nice place to live, for example. Or make it so that unless there's upwards mobility, rich people won't just magically appear.

Not sure liberal ideas would necessarily make a better game. Just musing outloud.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Parking lots would make a good ordinance. If you want cars to go directly to their destination, require every store to maintain its own parking lot. This will make for sparse suburban style concrete wastelands. For denser inner city or Eurostyle towns, don't require parking lots for each store, and rely on plopped parking lots/towers-- then cars will have to go park first, and then walk/bus/tram/subway from there.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Eesh, right turns only? I hope that's temporary. Only divided boulevards should prevent cars from turning left into a home or business.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

That is a fantastic road tool. I hope the intersectional AI won't be too tricky, particularly for multi-lane traffic lights (how many left turn only lanes, how many left turn or straight lanes, how many straight only lanes, etc). A lane based traffic system like this is admittedly a good use for agents, as much as I keep harping on how I don't like them.

Can you put nodal points in the middle of an already built road?

I wonder what would be an easy interface for overpass/underpasses? Maybe something like hold shift or alt? But how would you do multi-level overpasses, like the Baltimore I-695/I-70 junction? (I always thought that one was a thing of beauty)

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Note: I think the majority of us here are "intersection nerds".

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

This sort of thing is a pain in the rear end to code, I know. I'm still curious how you plan to implement multilane intersections with respect to agents. Coordination might start to look like an appealing solution to downtown traffic issues too (but I'd understand if that's a bit daunting to even try to tackle).

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Glad to see roundabouts in! I'm sure that as things progress, that'll be one of those things that there'll be a dedicated tool to make it easier.

Sidewalks would likely be another road-type, correct? Would grassy areas like median strips also be a road-type? Maybe a grassy median strip could be coded like a sidewalk with lower speed limit so that pedestrians CAN walk on the grass, but prefer not to?

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Wonderful! I like variation in traffic, and having some people need to go shopping before going home is perfect for that.

Still hoping for a traffic route analyzer tool like SC4's though, and this looks like it might make that more difficult. I guess agents could leave ant-trails showing where they go, which could then be looked at by a query tool?

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

anselm_eickhoff posted:

Well the problem is that the word alpha has just lost all it's meaning now,
I thought of something more along the lines of

The game at this stage
* is utterly incomplete
* might be boring or terribly frustrating
* might be broken in a million ways
* may even not start at all!

Only buy if you can accept that.

I liked how Prison Architect advertised. "Come, experience completely unfun and potentially gamebreaking bugs!" or something to that effect.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Still would be nice to be able to link the nebulous outside "region" to another city you control.

Buuuuut.... yes. 50km x 50km is very nice. That's around twice the square mileage of NYC, if maybe not the full length of NYC. (NYC is kinda long and narrow)

On the other hand, 50km x 50km is not quite enough for the NYC Metropolitan area (which would require 185 x 185km).

On the third hand, filling that amount of space will take ages.

On the fourth hand, collaborative efforts could be fun.

I have too many hands.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

I really like the merging lanes. Before, it was really jarring, now it looks awesome! Progress!

Have you gotten into agent AI yet with regards to lane changing and navigating intersections?

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

The Deadly Hume posted:

Ohhh nice. Is the likelihood that a lot upgrading to higher density going to be tied to any kind of land value/desirability mapping? (In the long term, anyway, if and when you put such systems in.)

This was going to be my question also! I would think that single home residential would want to balance having empty lots (especially wooded or water empty lots!) nearby with also having amenities like shopping nearby, while also having a decent commute. Then the houses would pop up more organically, not randomly.

For denser residential, I think it would be the reverse of wanting to build away from each other... they'd want to keep apartments grouped together instead of spread apart, so that they can build wall-to-wall where possible, and so that you don't get nail houses stuck between big apartments.

I'm sure you're planning to have wall-to-wall buildings show up. Do you have any code in place working towards this already, or will wall-to-wall be a separate coding project for later? Asking only because I'm interested in the coding process, whether you're laying groundwork or just getting there when you get there. Alas, I'm at work when you do your livestreams, so I can't join then...

Iunnrais fucked around with this message at Aug 20, 2014 around 00:16

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

I didn't fully understand the "competition" part of that update. Is it just some random bonus demand when things are in balance? I don't quite get it.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Baronjutter posted:

Yeah it's really easy to have a few graphics settings, graphics are so optional and "cheap" today. But the core simulation will always be a huge hog and not really something you can scale for different computers other than just scaling the playing area/population.

I mean dwarf fortress is actually a very cpu intensive game and it basically has no graphics.

Ironically, despite having no graphics to speak of, one of the first major FPS boosts in dwarf fortress came from someone rewriting the graphics engine for it pro bono. Apparently, the non-graphics engine it had previously used was somehow hogging CPU just to display 30 lines of text.

So... even in simulation intensive works, you can't COMPLETELY ignore graphics.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Volmarias posted:

Hell, I'd be happy if there was an API for DF to let people write their own graphics interface, so that we could get actual 3D graphics, which frankly wouldn't be that hard, instead of making everything be an OpenGL driven sprite.

This exists already. It's called "DFHack", and it works EXACTLY like an API.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Not sure if the city sim part will be up to snuff yet, but the traffic stuff is looking interesting enough to play with.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

I don't disagree with your rant, but that said, knowing this, we can at least consider trying to de-abstract different aspects of city-building than have been covered before. It would be interesting to have a NON-libertarian economic assumption model, for instance, because no one else has even tried it. It would be interesting to include parking requirements, because basically no one else has attempted to model it, and it's interesting!

Just because you have to choose what to abstract doesn't mean you have to abstract everything exactly as before.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

MikeJF posted:

Who said it's based on liberatarian assumptions? Simcity, especially the old ones, were liberal as hell. All the government services, government healthcare, massive public transport basically required to get a functioning large city...

The taxation system, in particular, is extremely libertarian. At the very least it's reaganomics. Tax the poor high, tax the rich less, and your city will thrive.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

MikeJF posted:

Only because you're managing a city rather than a country and you can just drive the poor out to be neighbouring cities' problems.

Which includes the common libertarian assumption that mobility is an option for the poor. That if they can't afford things, they'll go elsewhere instead of live in worse and worse squalor. Camden, NJ suggests otherwise.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

I am impressed by this ui. Awesome! Height zoning and setbacks builtin in an intuitive manner! Woo!

Is the setback going to be the only thing specifying that parking is required, or will businesses spontaneously generate their own optional parking lots even if no setback was specified of land values allow?

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

I'm curious... other developers would be terrified to open source any part of their work, for fear of losing their primary means of making money and paying the bills. Are you confident that the core, non-open source engine going to be sufficient for you to make a living off the game?

Thinking of Tarn Adams here, and his aversion to open source. But then again, he's not a fan of collaborations at all, while you clearly are.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Question: in ythat video, you showed being able to modify lanes in a very awesome manner... but can you actually edit the intersection to suit? For example, if you create a right turning lane as in the example, can you then set the intersection so that right turns are prohibited (except in the dedicated lane)? From the video, it looked like all the turning logic might have been locked in place.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Looking solid, looking foreword to it. Question... so far, absolutely everything, old engine and new engine, has been 100% 2D oriented. Is there room in the architecture for hills, or are you locking in to Kansas?

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

There's a planning livestream going on on youtube right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YUye9fnnWg

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Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

The game has a GREAT concept. Basically, you're building two cities simultaneously... one you want to be a typical densely packed megapolis with low traffic, good public transportation, no crime (equivalent) no pollution (equivalent), and so forth... and the other city needs to be a shithole with terrible traffic backed up at all times, maze-like streets, barely functioning infrastructure, sprawling out in every direction so that travel times take for ever, high pollution, etc.

The problem with it was that the implementation sucked rear end, and they didn't go whole hog on some of their basic premises... such as, there's still a "crime" equivalent in hell that you want to REDUCE (supposedly it's angels invading and trying to help people not be tortured as much, or pleasant flocks of birds or whatever) so you're still trying to make a "good" city in hell sometimes. And the pointless micromanagement, as mentioned. And the lack of differentiation between the 7 virtues and 7 sin buildings. And the fact that there was one "right" way to build a city in order for it to grow at all. They also based a lot of the gameplay around dealing with unavoidable disasters you can't turn off, in both heaven AND hell, and even in hell the disasters are things you don't want for some reason! The traffic model was boring as gently caress... sims simply move from one sin/virtue location to the next after a certain number of years being tortured/being pleasured. And so on and so forth.

Great concept, good basic ideas, lots of funny bits in it, but man is it not fun to actually play.

Someone taking the basic concept and redoing it with, say, simcity 4's gameplay? That would be wonderful.

Iunnrais fucked around with this message at Mar 24, 2017 around 02:10

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