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Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Please include some kind of pedestrian infrastructure too! Most cities in the world have large pedestrian downtowns, the typical Simcity model where everything is next to a big road only exists in a few American cities.

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Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



I'd love it if, like Simcity 4, it had a lot of options for building rural areas, including forests and whatnot. Maybe just look at how they did plop placement in that game and copy it, being able to paint the landscape with importable 2D sprites would do the trick.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



anselm_eickhoff posted:

I think I can do better than 2D sprites for trees.

It's true that it would look better to have everything in 3D, but consider the ease of creating resources as well. SC4 had mods which let you place things like tiny rocks and small flowers in large quantities. Of course you're not really at that stage of development yet, but having the tiniest things in 2D might make it easier to create large amounts of mods for stuff like that, and displaying a lot of different poo poo on screen at a time, which is what makes SC4 look great even today.

It's up to you though. I'd be happy with just a functional and good city sim and I'm glad you're making one.

On the other hand, I also really like the minimal look of Freetrain:


Maybe something like this is easier to develop for a single person, since it wouldn't need as many textures and stuff like that, and it would still look good.

Shibawanko fucked around with this message at Apr 26, 2014 around 09:01

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Baronjutter posted:

woah is that like an a-train re-make? I never really got fully into the whole transport tycoon series but I loved a-train. Although man some really questionable building choices there. Yes, this neighbourhood needs 100 gray windowless towers with a giant P at the top.

It's an open source a-train game, but it's unfinished and I think you can only kind of paint landscapes and do limited transport stuff.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Yeah, in most stations in Tokyo they have a big JR skyscraper sitting on top of the actual tracks. I never knew why until know though, I did hear once that because revenue in Tokyo and other big cities is potentially so high, the government forces JR to also develop rural lines and take the loss for less profitable ones in exchange for allowing it to run the Yamanote line and such.

Will Citybound have trains? Maybe it would be cool if there was sort of an a-trainlike system to it as well.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Personally I wouldn't care for the idea of time periods and stuff, it would make it a bit too much like Age of Empires or something and less like a landscaper. I'd generally avoid the Simcity Societies/Impressions route where puzzle and strategy game mechanics are wedged into a city builder, since it tends to take away from the core. The gameplay should probably just focus on infrastructure and aesthetics.

Here's a screenshot from Edushi for inspiration:

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



I like to just be able to build a city anywhere as well, rather than needing a road. That would just feel kind of restrictive. In SC4 at least, sometimes you'd find a landform or location or whatever which aesthetically suits you and you just want to build there, rather than wherever would be most realistic.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Baronjutter posted:

It's really not hard to make a road from your perfect spot to the edge of the map. How else do people come to your city or is it some post-apocalypic last city on earth thing? I love an excuse to make a cool winding mountain road through the wilderness.

What if it's on an island or just out in the middle of nowhere? I don't see why you would want a mandatory start from a road, the game has to begin as a single city from nothing anyway, so why not just let the player build the intercity roads SC4 style?

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



That looks really cool. Will you make it so that you can actually enter a first person perspective too and walk around your city?

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



SC4devotion is easily the weirdest and creepiest videogame community on the internet and those guys look like they'd fit right in.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Baronjutter posted:

I know I'm probably in a minority but I've never had any interest in disasters in any of these sort of games. Disabling them is always the first thing I do. They're rarely a challenge, just an interruption and then tedious re-building. To me a good disaster in a city builder is a traffic jam, an economic problem, a pollution problem, basically results of the systems of the game and your choices. Not just "there's an earthquake, now spend 10 min bulldozing and re-doing a bunch of your work" or "there's a fire, wait until the fire is out before you can keep playing"

I forgot that SC4 even had them for a while, until I realized that meteorites are good for god mode sculpting. I never use them otherwise.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



The concept of multiplayer in a citygame is weird to me, since they're all about building cool looking cities. Competition and working together doesn't really factor into it for me.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Carlos Spicywiener posted:

I don't think competition works well, but co-op does for me.

I think sending agents to another city (hello Maxis) is pretty stupid in terms of inefficiencies, but the idea of an abstracted influx of workers and other perks from a neighbour would be cool. Like how the neighbouring cities in SC2000 would move in line with your city, but affected by a friend or someone (they could provide educated workers etc).

I agree that that would basically be cool, but for me the best part about SC4 was creating a giant interconnected region and looking at it from above like i was Zeus, and that aspect is more difficult to unite with multiplayer (since you're giving up control of things to somebody else), so if there's going to be any kind of multiplayer region, please make multiplayer only optional and also let the cities connect directly to eachother seamlessly like in Sc4, rather than having them be islands, like in SC2013.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



This is looking really cool so far, can't wait to see more options like ploppables and services.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



anselm_eickhoff posted:

Just a heads up:

No update tomorrow, but I will try a development/Q&A livestream! Starting 4PM GMT

(I'm linking there so I have only one place to update when I need to change infos regarding the stream).

If you won't be able to make it, but have a question that you really really want to have answered personally, post it here and I will answer it on stream when I have time.

Do you plan to have countryside elements along with the city stuff? Like it would be cool to be able to build farms, rivers and forests and small villages. I can already see myself plotting some dirt roads and watching tractors block car traffic on purpose (they always do).

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Well, I saw that there were farms, but I meant more like something like SC4's region system, with entire huge areas being countryside and getting to decorate them with small villages here and there, and ploppable details.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Baronjutter posted:

I'm wondering if the maps them selves will just be huge enough that regions won't matter so much. The demo map he's been showing off is 20x20. What was the biggest map in sc4, like 4x4 ?

I love the idea of regions and wish they'd be included, honestly. 20x20 km is nice and big for a city, but I'd still like to be able to link multiple cities of that size together.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



The solution seems to me to simply use regions, like in Simcity 4. That was just a great system.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Definitely include dirt roads. That wouldn't be too hard to implement, right?

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Yeah I'm also not that interested in intersection micromanagement, I want a build a city, not just a transport network, including facilities and parks and whatnot.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Speaking of stuff other than transport, will we see ploppable stuff like hospitals and schools and parks and stuff? How do you plan to go about that?

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/10/les-simerables/ here's a great article for city simulation fans (and maybe Anselm if he has time to read it). It argues that the rules of Simcity simulate only a certain very specific way of thinking about urban planning, the neoliberal American method where there are certain ways in which the interaction between different elements of the city are enforced. It'd be interesting to see a city builder which does things entirely differently.

Also, I didn't know the idea for Simcity was inspired by Stanislaw Lem. More proof that Lem rules I guess.

I went to Warsaw the other day, there's a certain part of the city (just west of centrum) that's a mixture of modern insurance company skyscrapers and the most depressing looking kind of soviet plattenbau. Strangely, the same principles seemed to govern both: giant unnecessary lawns around the buildings (nondescript "green space", only there to satisfy some quota), creating utterly unwalkable distances between the uniform and boring looking buildings. There were some small shops, mostly housed in what looked like tiny concrete shelters. Market Stalinism indeed.

On the other hand, Krakow was very gorgeous, it made me want to go back to Simcity 4 and finally gently caress around with those mods that let you build tram lines on top of roads, and get some cool Polish building mods.

Shibawanko fucked around with this message at Oct 30, 2014 around 17:25

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



ExtraNoise posted:

I think the "neoliberal American method" is popular in city-building sims because it's relatively simple to replicate because it's modern and doesn't necessarily need to take things like local/national politics (and government changes/revolutions) or city planning styles throughout history into consideration.

Those would be a lot of fun, but that would be pretty ambitious for even the biggest game dev teams to pull off.

You're right in that one of the reasons that particular model, the rational choice model, is used is because it is so simplistic: actors (agents in the game) act only to maximize their personal utility, they only travel to commute and maybe visit shops, have hard-coded limits on how much taxation they are willing to accept, etc. This makes for a very simple game based on certain assumptions, but the rational choice model has been widely disproven, even though it's still used by managers and city planners, again because it is so simple to apply.

But it would be interesting to see a game which doesn't do this. An example would be if agents in Citybound have other reasons to travel around and form traffic other than commuting, like visiting relatives or whatever (it could be approximated by simply adding a certain randomness to their travel patterns, just as people in real life sometimes just drive down a nice road for the hell of it).

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013




Please make a parody of the Simcity 2013 trailer where you draw some roads shaped like an ejaculating penis instead of a guitar.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Yeah I can't imagine actually coding a game like this, or any game really. It seems impossibly difficult although that's no doubt because I have a useless brain.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Maybe pedestrians should be mostly on rails, like cars, when they follow a sidewalk or alley or something but can enter a kind of bumper car mode where their movements are sort of randomized if theyre on a plaza or shopping street?

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



I'm curious to see how roundabouts will function, or double roundabouts, or the Magic Roundabout quintuple vortex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_...t_%28Swindon%29

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Actual real life traffic behavior is very difficult to simulate because it concerns psychology. There's a double roundabout near my town which connects to a long stretch of 100 km road with no opportunities to overtake, and which is used mostly by long distance commuters and trucks. Nobody wants to be behind a slowass truck for 30 km straight so everybody rushes along the inner lane of that double roundabout, speeding in front of any trucks that are there, because they have foreknowledge of the fact that the roundabout is the last opportunity to overtake (at least, without breaking the traffic rules on the road). This would be difficult to simulate in a game I think so there's always going to be at least some abstraction.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



It's funny how Simcity is based on libertarian assumptions but those assumptions only work within a command economy where a man in the sky puts parks where they are needed and funds the fire department.

Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Yeah just make old power plants have higher upkeep or something, or just ignore that aspect altogether and just make them build and forget, except when you get a new technology or something. Maybe have high pollution cause riots around the plant if it's too near a neighborhood?

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Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013



Simcity 4 was just really confused about what it actually was. It was more like a landscaping tool than a game, the "game" part was just there to give something to work with to create something that looked cool. It had this really great 2.5D engine that still looks good, and you could use it with mods to build photorealistic cities and landscapes. It simulated long distance traffic and rail lines and stuff so you could create an integrated region to play around in, like a model train set, but it was really just a sandbox. Money ceased to matter once you developed maybe 3 cities and went into high tech industry. All of the difficulty, gamewise, was artificially crammed into the early parts, when you don't have anything built up yet

Managing water supply pipes didn't add to the aesthetics of your city, which was the core of the game, and shouldn't have been in there at all either.

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