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Also, Mel Brooks has a pretty good response to similar concerns years ago that someone posted in the comments of that article.quote:SPIEGEL: Can you also get your revenge on him by using comedy?
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May 10, 2014 14:57
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Panzeh posted:It takes a real fisherman to find some kind of way to take offense at killing Nazis of all people. I don't think every game has to go all realistic "war is hell" type stuff, we get plenty of that. To be fair, the average Wehrmacht soldier wasn't "evil". There are plenty of RatN who came from the Wehrmacht, you have reports of mass desertions/suicides after the rank and file found out about the concentration camps, and there are even reports of German camps executing their SS/superNazi soldiers after the atrocities came out. If a game came out that made it real clear you were murdering waves of just normal German grunts during WW2 who had nothing to do with anything, but treated it as revenge porn, that'd probably be a bit hosed up. Instead in every movie/video game I can think of, we are always fighting the SS/"The Occult SS"/"Hitlers finest", who are presumably total fuckers that deserve to get murdered for adhering 100% to the evil Nazi cliche. I'm really not sure where that article is trying to go with this, since Frau whatsherface and Deathshead are not the "good Germans.", they are a parody designed to be totally evil. Rookersh fucked around with this message at 15:38 on May 10, 2014 |
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May 10, 2014 15:12
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Rookersh posted:To be fair, the average Wehrmacht soldier wasn't "evil". There are plenty of RatN who came from the Wehrmacht, you have reports of mass desertions/suicides after the rank and file found out about the concentration camps, and there are even reports of German camps executing their SS/superNazi soldiers after the atrocities came out. If a game came out that made it real clear you were murdering waves of just normal German grunts during WW2 who had nothing to do with anything, but treated it as revenge porn, that'd probably be a bit hosed up. Also, Nazis are never Christian. They have to be part of some cultish mixture of nordic mythology and freemasonry.
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May 10, 2014 15:45
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I just think you have to be careful to avoid perpetuating the whole Wehrmacht "Clean Hands" myth. There are plenty of people in the normal Wehrmacht that bought into the propaganda and committed war crimes and pretty bad atrocities due to that. But yeah, I remember getting burned out on World War 2 games because I was sick of every one and their mom wanting to make a game about World War 2.
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May 10, 2014 15:52
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blackguy32 posted:But yeah, I remember getting burned out on World War 2 games because I was sick of every one and their mom wanting to make a game about World War 2. I really did feel this same way for a long time. Though I have to admit, this game seems like a huge breath of fresh air to me after all the 'serious' shooters that have come out in the past 7 years. I really don't care all that much if they don't treat the bad guys humanly enough in classic FPS games like Doom and Wolfenstein. Honestly, my biggest complaint about New Order at this point is that the maps they've showed off so far seem a bit small and narrow. Contra Calculus fucked around with this message at 16:05 on May 10, 2014 |
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May 10, 2014 16:02
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blackguy32 posted:I just think you have to be careful to avoid perpetuating the whole Wehrmacht "Clean Hands" myth. There are plenty of people in the normal Wehrmacht that bought into the propaganda and committed war crimes and pretty bad atrocities due to that. Oh yeah totally. War is war, people are fuckers on all sides of it, including in the Wehrmacht. Just there are ways to defend "Nazis", and that's the normal angle people go for when they do. I wasn't gunning for any sort of opinion piece, I just grew up in Poland, so whenever I see people talking about WW2 I like jumping in and talking about history. The thing is that's a pointless angle to gun for because in no video game/movie I can think of are the Nazis anything other then a pure evil group dedicated to pure evil. In CoD you are just fighting "Germans", they go out of their way to make sure they never get called Nazis, and never do anything really evil. In Wolfenstein they are evil and Nazis, and have no redeeming qualities. It's revenge porn of a sort, and it works because who doesn't like shooting Nazis. A parody of the Nazis is just that, parody. It doesn't weaken the overall events that happened, but instead weakens the Nazi party themselves. If you can laugh at them, laugh about them, find them weak, or silly, or stupid, then it weakens them historically. But that doesn't effect the things they did. By making it so that the Nazis are not perfect ubermench strategists, but 3 stooges style idiots who throw out big speeches about how evil they are, it makes future generations look back at them as idiots. The atrocities they committed are not so intertwined with the word Nazi that they will be weakened alongside the group, which is what that article is trying to say it seems. That by making fun of the Nazis, we are also making fun of what they did, which I'm not sure I agree with.
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May 10, 2014 16:08
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With the release of The New Order approaching in just 10 days, I'd like to take the time to post some other "what if the Nazis won the war?" fiction for anyone looking for something to tide them over until the new game hits: The Man in the High Castle by Philip K Dick depicts a world where Japan controls the western part of the US, while the Nazis control the eastern half, with a subtle "cold war" between the two superpowers. The Sound of His Horn by Sarban follows an American trapped in a Nazi game preserve where prisoners are hunted for sport, set in a restructured Europe that hearkens back to medieval Germanic traditions. Swastika Night by Katherine Burdekin depicts a brutal future several hundred years into the Nazi's "thousand year reich". What makes this book especially interesting is that it wasn't originally alt-history - it was originally published in 1937 as science fiction. Incidentally its depiction of the "future" makes no mention of the Holocaust, since the wholesale industrialized genocide of entire races of people was arguably unfathomable to pre-WWII writers.  The Divide by William Overgard depicts a similar world to that of Man in the High Castle, but it's written much more like a summer blockbuster action film. It follows a group of resistance fighters in America plotting to assassinate the Nazi and Japanese high command in one fell swoop as they meet in the American midwest to celebrate the 30th anniversary of their victory in America. Their weapon of choice? The only atomic bomb in existence (the Nazis and Japanese having failed to achieve nuclear technology). The Ultimate Solution by Eric Norden, probably one of the bleaker books in the "genre", is written sort of like a pulp-noir novel about an investigator conscripted by the Nazis into tracking down the suspected last Jew on the planet, ultimately building up to a potential nuclear exchange between Nazi and Japanese "cold war" superpowers. That's just 5 books worth checking out, but I've got a huge list of about 75 from that subgenre of Weird War II.
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May 10, 2014 17:16
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kefkafloyd posted:Also, Mel Brooks has a pretty good response to similar concerns years ago that someone posted in the comments of that article. I was going to post that. I agree with it, best way to get rid of the appeal of nazism is to make it a joke. Prohibition gives things appeal and mystery, whereas making it laughable destroys it.
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May 10, 2014 21:11
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How can I be this hyped for a Wolfenstein game in 2014.... weird.
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May 10, 2014 21:23
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floor is lava posted:How can I be this hyped for a Wolfenstein game in 2014.... weird. 
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May 10, 2014 23:00
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Hard to believe this game series has gone on for thirty years. Yes, yes, I know Commodore Wolf is not the same but damnit that game started it all.
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May 11, 2014 00:05
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kefkafloyd posted:Hard to believe this game series has gone on for thirty years. Yes, yes, I know Commodore Wolf is not the same but damnit that game started it all. It's kinda neat that The New Order will have stealth options, finally reintroducing those gameplay components after a 30-year hiatus. 
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May 11, 2014 00:13
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kefkafloyd posted:Also, Mel Brooks has a pretty good response to similar concerns years ago that someone posted in the comments of that article. It's a bit different but there's the same thrust, since brutally owning nazis with chainguns stops them from seeming that strong.
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May 11, 2014 00:14
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Maybe it's the trailers or something, but I get the feeling this might be a cutscene riddled game, and I would really rather riddle nazis with bullets and care less about the storyline.
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May 11, 2014 00:28
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Nice to see "critics" are now expressing concern about sensitivity re: Nazis as video game fodder. gently caress gaming "critics," now and forever. Guns are rad, games are rad, shooting Nazis in the face is rad.
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May 11, 2014 00:45
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bloodysabbath posted:gently caress gaming "critics," now and forever. Guns are rad, games are rad, shooting Nazis in the face is rad. Exactly. Why does it have to go any deeper than this? It's a game about shooting big rear end guns at big rear end mans in big rear end castles and big rear end complexes to make big rear end goresplosions. The fact that you're shooting Nazis feels more like happenstance than anything else. A manufactured reason to click your mouse buttons over and over again. "Well we have to give the player motivation to actually shoot the targets in this game. How do we do that?" "Nazis." The End. GreatGreen fucked around with this message at 01:12 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 01:10
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Oh no, those poor demons from hell on mars. Those shooting games portray them so insensitively. 
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May 11, 2014 01:26
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Xenomrph posted:It's also arguably one of the first stealth video games ever made, and Wolf3D was going to heavily feature stealth mechanics until they realized how difficult it would be to implement in the then-fledgling FPS genre. Hey man, I play RTCW in a (generally) stealthy manner. There's times when you have to go guns blazing of course but it rewards those who play quietly. Commodore Wolfenstein was one of my absolute favorite games. The SS in those games were truly terrifying as they could chase you from room to room. The combination of keyboard and joystick control was a bit weird at times but it did work.
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May 11, 2014 01:29
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Seriously, this is a goddamn franchise where you fight loving Hitler in a wizard robe and mech suit.
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May 11, 2014 01:30
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kefkafloyd posted:Hey man, I play RTCW in a (generally) stealthy manner. There's times when you have to go guns blazing of course but it rewards those who play quietly. Not gonna lie, the Paderborn assassination stealth level in RTCW is probably my favorite level in the whole game, and it's completely devoid of Nazi occult super-science weirdness.
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May 11, 2014 02:04
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I'm sure by the 20th there will be more game journalists talking about how wrong it is to have this culturally ingrained ultimate evil enemy in the Nazis and how those living in the world of the New Order are no worse than you, the player, being motivated by artificial victim complexes and war fatigue while simultaneously massacring thousands of stereotypical SS with your clearly too technologically advanced weaponry. German engineering and science is good, but not that good, media. But when it comes to reviews these same people will bend over backwards to present their 9 out of 10s to Bethesda. We wouldn't want to get them mad and stop sending us gifts.
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May 11, 2014 02:06
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I would totally agree if it was a world war 2 shooter where the German army are the bad guys. That certainly does ignore the somewhat unfortunate implications that what with conscription, chances are a good number of the people you're killing aren't really that bad, they just didn't want to go to prison for draft dodging. But wolfenstein isn't about fighting the German army, it's about fighting nazis, goose stepping baby eating demon worshipping god playing hitler heiling nazis. Nazis are bad, it is okay to shoot them. And we know they're all nazis because the game is full of conversations between nazis about how they've personally kicked more puppies this month than the other guy and they are in line for promotion from the fuhrer for their puppy kicking skills.
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May 11, 2014 02:10
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Yeah, I would understand finding this problematic if this was actually a game in real World War 2 and not World War 2 on crack where Hitler has ridiculously advanced technology and uses magic as well.
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May 11, 2014 02:19
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Speaking of Hitler, is he still alive during The New Order? Have they made any mention of him? I sincerely hope he pops in as a surprise boss or something. Failing that, there's always Sniper Elite 3 in July.
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May 11, 2014 02:25
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I think the whole genre is ready for criticism. The conversation shouldn't start with Nazis' though. If anyone deserves to be canon fodder in my shoot mans games it's the fascists of WW2.
Donovan Trip fucked around with this message at 02:56 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 02:29
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timeandtide posted:Speaking of Hitler, is he still alive during The New Order? Have they made any mention of him? I sincerely hope he pops in as a surprise boss or something.
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May 11, 2014 02:32
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Xenomrph posted:With the release of The New Order approaching in just 10 days, I'd like to take the time to post some other "what if the Nazis won the war?" fiction for anyone looking for something to tide them over until the new game hits: These sound pretty interesting! I'd be interested in hearing more 
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May 11, 2014 03:15
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Contra Calculus posted:Oh no, those poor demons from hell on mars. Those shooting games portray them so insensitively. If we could only talk to the demons... now there's a game worth playing. I always found that Edge review of DOOM hilarious for how contrarian the reviewer was in advocating that the FPS genre should be more accommodating to the professional politician playstyle of brokering alliances, taking backdoor bribes, and dodging questions instead of shooting the monsters to death with your big guns.
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May 11, 2014 03:28
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Xenomrph posted:Whoa wait, we're getting another Sniper Elite game? Hellyeah son, 2014 is looking to be another banner year for dumb first person shooters. Gonna be pretty tough to top 2013 though.
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May 11, 2014 03:35
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timeandtide posted:Speaking of Hitler, is he still alive during The New Order? Have they made any mention of him? I sincerely hope he pops in as a surprise boss or something. I think he's in the trailer. Isn't there like a 5-second shot of  shaking hands with General Death-head when they blow up mount Rushmore?
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May 11, 2014 03:43
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Green Man Gaming has a 25% voucher offer and Wolf:TNO applies. $45 seems fair to me. I'm in the US, but it looks like it's a birthday thing for their mascot, so it might work elsewhere. Also, you get RtCW for free if by chance don't already have it on steam. Broose fucked around with this message at 04:22 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 04:10
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Amazon is doing their typical "Get $10 Credit" thing for every physical edition of the game (console, PC, whatever) and $5 credit for buying the digital download through them.
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May 11, 2014 04:32
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Having never actually played a single player Wolfenstein before, is there an ongoing storyline? Is it canon that you've killed Hitler? And Deathshead is from RTCW, right? I'm sure I won't need to know going into TNO, but I'm curious. I'm sure I can hit up a wiki somewhere, but should I bother? Does the story carry over at all between games, basically?
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May 11, 2014 04:47
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Technically the new game will be in continuity with the last two, but there's very little actual narrative in these games -- they're all basically self-contained adventures. The only vital plot point you need to know is that you're name is B.J. Blazkowicz and is says "Fucks Up Nazi poo poo" on your business cards.
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May 11, 2014 04:58
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DareToSlack posted:Having never actually played a single player Wolfenstein before, is there an ongoing storyline? Is it canon that you've killed Hitler? And Deathshead is from RTCW, right? I'm sure I won't need to know going into TNO, but I'm curious. I'm sure I can hit up a wiki somewhere, but should I bother? Does the story carry over at all between games, basically? RTCW to Wolf 09 was a direct sequel. Wolf 3D doesn't really fit in the continuity of either of these. Wolf: TNO takes a lot of elements from these games, but it's not shaking up to be an actual sequel. Namely, Caroline shows up in the trailers and game and she was pretty brutally killed at the end of Wolf 09. It's using a lot of characters and imagery from RTCW/Wolf 09, but doing its own thing. We'll have to see, I guess. When watching a preview of the first level, Deathshead doesn't seem to treat BJ with the utter contempt I would expect after capturing him. The dude ruined your last two world domination plans! Basically, you don't have to have played the last two games, but it doesn't hurt.
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May 11, 2014 05:11
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DareToSlack posted:Having never actually played a single player Wolfenstein before, is there an ongoing storyline? Is it canon that you've killed Hitler? And Deathshead is from RTCW, right? I'm sure I won't need to know going into TNO, but I'm curious. I'm sure I can hit up a wiki somewhere, but should I bother? Does the story carry over at all between games, basically? As for Hitler, you kill him in Wolf3D but RTCW and Wolf09 don't mention anything from Wolf3D (and Hans Grosse, the episode 1 boss from Wolf3D, is the final boss in Wolf09 and the game treats it like it's the first time BJ has faced the character). Having said that, there's some dialogue in Wolf09 that references BJ stealing the Spear of Destiny (Wolf3D: Spear of Destiny). RTCW and Wolf09 (and hell, even Wolf3D) are worth playing if you haven't played them, if only because they're really loving fun and shooting Nazis in the face is quite possibly the best pastime in human history.
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May 11, 2014 05:17
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Rookersh posted:The thing is that's a pointless angle to gun for because in no video game/movie I can think of are the Nazis anything other then a pure evil group dedicated to pure evil. In CoD you are just fighting "Germans", they go out of their way to make sure they never get called Nazis, and never do anything really evil. In Wolfenstein they are evil and Nazis, and have no redeeming qualities. It's revenge porn of a sort, and it works because who doesn't like shooting Nazis. The Keep is the only one I can think of, but that movie's even more out there than this Wolfenstein game.
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May 11, 2014 05:18
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Neo Rasa posted:The Keep is the only one I can think of, but that movie's even more out there than this Wolfenstein game. If you're looking for more "WWII Germans but not capital-E Evil bad guys", you can't go wrong with Das Boot. The game Velvet Assassin did a pretty decent job of it, too. I mean yeah there are some righteously evil motherfuckers in the game (Dirlewanger's crew), but the majority of the people you kill are normal Wehrmacht dudes manning their posts and talking about how much they miss their families and want the war to end. Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 05:25 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 05:20
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kefkafloyd posted:RTCW to Wolf 09 was a direct sequel. Wolf 3D doesn't really fit in the continuity of either of these. TNO is a sequel to RTCW and 2009, it was mentioned by one of the developers here (I don't see the point in adding spoiler tags when talking about the Wolfenstein storyline of all things, but whatever): quote:So my idea for Deathshead was that he was really, really happy because, in the previous Wolfenstein game, he survived the zeppelin crash, which also gave us something to explore in terms of his look. Like, he could have this very burnt look to his face. And I’m thinking, what if I survived a zeppelin crash? It can go several ways, but one way it can go is to make you feel really blessed that you’re alive and really just start enjoying life on a whole new level. Your first spoiler is more of a minor retcon since that character gets shot once in a cutscene and disappears from the plot 2 seconds later, and in TNO she's in a wheelchair implying she was crippled. Wolfenstein 3D is a weird one because promotional material before Wolfenstein 2009's release tried to put it in the same continuity as it and RTCW, but in 09 BJ fights Hans Grosse who he had already killed in 3D. The developers of TNO have said in some interviews that it was originally pitched as a direct continuation to Wolf 3D, so it's canonicity to the current timeline is rather nebulous. Know your Wolfencanon, goons! 
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May 11, 2014 05:49
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GUI posted:Wolfenstein 3D is a weird one because promotional material before Wolfenstein 2009's release tried to put it in the same continuity as it and RTCW, but in 09 BJ fights Hans Grosse who he had already killed in 3D. The developers of TNO have said in some interviews that it was originally pitched as a direct continuation to Wolf 3D, so it's canonicity to the current timeline is rather nebulous. Oh, that's what's going on! I could have sworn I heard that TNO was a follow-up to WOlf3D, rather than RTCW/Wolf09, and was confused when characters from there started popping up in the trailers. I guess that initial idea is what I heard about. Unless through time-fuckery, they created the Wolf3D timeline or something and both are true. That'd be weird.
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