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Postal Parcel
Aug 2, 2013

Namtab posted:

Well the deal with the class 1 and 2 system is that only the class 1s are actually physically taught magic, whilst class 2s are just given access to books and rooms and left to get on with it. This results in the class 1s becoming more adept at magic as time goes on, thus furthering the divide

That is...amazing. So, in the main characters(The Family Incest) mind, those poorweak magic havers are just jealous, even though being in class 1 and class 2 is equivalent to 'segregated but equal' schooling in the US. Great.

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gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007

Postal Parcel posted:

That is...amazing. So, in the main characters(The Family Incest) mind, those poorweak magic havers are just jealous, even though being in class 1 and class 2 is equivalent to 'segregated but equal' schooling in the US. Great.

Oh no, it isn't equal at all. See, the reason for the division is that there is a severe shortage of magic teachers. So the people in class 2 don't have teachers. At all. Ever. That's why they were so shocked when the counselor came in and said hello during their first class.

However, the people with ~real ability~ will eventually be recognized by the military because the (japanese) military is awesome that way.

Edit: Oh, didn't see what you were quoting in my rush to mock the show some more. My assertion that no one ever learns magic from school is especially true for Miyuki, who is ostensibly receiving instruction. Of course, just what 'magic school' would even consist of is never really elaborated on.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Apr 28, 2014

WickedHate
Aug 1, 2013

by Lowtax

Postal Parcel posted:

That is...amazing. So, in the main characters(The Family Incest) mind, those poorweak magic havers are just jealous, even though being in class 1 and class 2 is equivalent to 'segregated but equal' schooling in the US. Great.

No, the Course 1/Course 2 segregation is definitely considered bullshit by the narrative.

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010

Serious Frolicking posted:

Edit: Oh, didn't see what you were quoting in my rush to mock the show some more. My assertion that no one ever learns magic from school is especially true for Miyuki, who is ostensibly receiving instruction. Of course, just what 'magic school' would even consist of is never really elaborated on.

In fairness though the sister is almost as equally bullshit as the brother in that she's just the best in terms of absolute raw power.

Desuwa
Jun 2, 2011

I'm telling my mommy. That pubbie doesn't do video games right!
I said I was going to drop this after the third episode. Then I decided if he just starts fighting stuff it might be okay so I'll watch the fourth episode.

I made a mistake. The fourth episode was far worse than the first three episodes and holy poo poo does this author have problems. Especially after reading the LN spoilers, this is a love letter for elitism and imperial Japan (and also incest).


It can't be anti-elitist because the main character explicitly supports elitism. The horrible problem isn't that people are divided into Haves and Have-Nots, it's that the main character is classified as a Has-Not because he Has but in a different way. It's not mad that the Have-Nots are considered inferior, it's mad that the MC is included with the inherently inferior commoners instead of being recognized as the special snowflake he is.


I'm sure it exists, but I haven't read or watched anything so blindingly nationalist outside of wartime propaganda.


WickedHate posted:

No, the Course 1/Course 2 segregation is definitely considered bullshit by the narrative.

I'm not even sure. It feels like the author says the segregation is bad, but actually supports it and the real problem is the MC being assigned to Course 2 with the inferior humans.



Also the story is downright inconsistent. This is supposed to be the high school for the magical elite, and the Course 1 students are just the best of the best and the Course 2 students are the second best. But then Course 2 students aren't even given magical instruction, and now some of them can't do magic in general? At the magical high school for the top students in the country? It's like the entire country is pooling resources into the top 1% while making the second percent watch.

Desuwa fucked around with this message at 02:20 on May 1, 2014

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Desuwa posted:

Also the story is downright inconsistent. This is supposed to be the high school for the magical elite, and the Course 1 students are just the best of the best and the Course 2 students are the second best. But then Course 2 students aren't even given magical instruction, and now some of them can't do magic in general? At the magical high school for the top students in the country? It's like the entire country is pooling resources into the top 1% while making the second percent watch.

Yeah, this also occurred to me. The Class 2 people should still be elite, just slightly less elite.

To be honest, your description of the fourth episode being even worse actually makes me want to watch it more. There's really bad shows (like that one about the guy who has multiple choice questions pop up in his daily life), but this is more offensively bad than just generic.

edit: I just started watching episode 4, and the main character seemed really interested in this Jyumonji guy's rock-hard body

Hahahaha, the main character literally says this: "and they deceive others, as well as themselves, with their sweet-sounding concepts, such as equality."

Yeah, pretty sure that this show is not against elitism

Actually, this show has made me wonder about something. Are otaku in Japan more or less right-wing than the average citizen?

Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 02:43 on May 1, 2014

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007
This show is like a poo poo onion. Peel off one layer, and there is always another layer of feces.

For example, you know how Godking Tatsuya reproached the counselor for her outfit? In this setting, women showing any skin in public is highly discouraged. Those wispy jackets that are part of the girl's uniforms are there for the purposes of modesty.

Desuwa
Jun 2, 2011

I'm telling my mommy. That pubbie doesn't do video games right!

Serious Frolicking posted:

This show is like a poo poo onion. Peel off one layer, and there is always another layer of feces.

For example, you know how Godking Tatsuya reproached the counselor for her outfit? In this setting, women showing any skin in public is highly discouraged. Those wispy jackets that are part of the girl's uniforms are there for the purposes of modesty.

Well you see when a wisp of cloth covers something it's technically covered, but when it's not covered at all then it's an attempt at seduction by an evil woman and only our protagonist's superiortragic condition can protect him.

:goonsay:

Strong Mouse
Jun 11, 2012

You disrespect us. You drag corpses around. You steal, and you hurt feelings!

RRRRRRRAAAAARGH!

Prepare to die!
Is that why, in episode 3, the red head girl was so ashamed of him seeing her? I thought that was just general anime-girl syndrome.

I also realized that I have no idea what a single person's name in the anime is. I don't really care about their names since they are all there to :fap: to the main character, but I don't even remember his name.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007
The girl with the genetic predisposition for absolute dependence and the robot maid haven't even joined the harem yet. You haven't seen anything when it comes to Satou being weird about women.

Spoiler alert, I guess.

Also, there is one genuinely surprising fact about Tatsuya's harem, that I will put in spoilers because it is so wildly improbable that no one would ever think of it on their own. The glasses girl with the big tits? She doesn't ever fall madly in love with Tatsuya.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy fucked around with this message at 03:01 on May 1, 2014

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Serious Frolicking posted:

Also, there is one genuinely surprising fact about Tatsuya's harem, that I will put in spoilers because it is so wildly improbable that no one would ever think of it on their own. The glasses girl with the big tits? She doesn't ever fall madly in love with Tatsuya.

Is she gay? That might explain it.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007

Ytlaya posted:

Is she gay? That might explain it.

Yeah, the ultra-nationalist who wanks about how awesome the military and the rich are is going to include a positive portrayal of a homosexual. I'm surprised the nefarious chinese who are determined to bring down glorious nippon aren't all gay.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Serious Frolicking posted:

Yeah, the ultra-nationalist who wanks about how awesome the military and the rich are is going to include a positive portrayal of a homosexual. I'm surprised the nefarious chinese who are determined to bring down glorious nippon aren't all gay.

Well, it's okay for girls to be gay as it's only there to titillate the viewer.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007

Ytlaya posted:

Well, it's okay for girls to be gay as it's only there to titillate the viewer.

Ha ha, the viewer. This is masturbation fodder meant for exactly one person. Lemme dig up some of the creepy loving descriptions of female characters from the LN's.

HiveCommander
Jun 19, 2012

Serious Frolicking posted:

Ha ha, the viewer. This is masturbation fodder meant for exactly one person. Lemme dig up some of the creepy loving descriptions of female characters from the LN's.

I'm as ready as I'll ever be :ohdear:

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007
Here is a fairly tame but unnecessarily lengthy example, picked from a random chapter of a random book. It might not seem that bad, but this sort of passage is frequent enough that it gets kind of creepy.

Satou posted:

Among this group, Mayumi's appearance was very conspicuous.

As a matter of fact, she was "extremely conspicuous".

Both her arms and shoulders were revealed in her summer dress.

The length was also above her knees.

Her bare legs were matched with a pair of high heeled sandals.

Her skin was lightly browned, probably because she applied an anti-UV and infrared protection layer. Taking this into account, she technically wasn't revealing anything, but this skin coloring only served to help people think that she had been sunbathing.

"It suits senpai very well."

A daring summer outfit embroidered with flowers truly suited Mayumi perfectly.

"Is that so......? Thank you."

The surprised tone coupled with a bashful expression was also a killer combination.

"......If only you were slightly embarrassed while complimenting me, then that would be perfect."

The young lady who was 2 years older than Tatsuya extended both arms straight onto her hips and leaned forward to look upwards at him.

Though petite, she still possessed average measurements around the bosom and, once squeezed by both arms, a lovely cleavage could be seen.

At this point, it almost seemed intentional.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012
It's especially bad because Tatsuya's repression makes it obvious that the male gaze is the omniscient narrator's (i.e., the author's) rather than a character's.

aers
Feb 15, 2012

Isn't this style of writing common in LNs? The over-descriptive stuff, I mean.

Stall_19
Jan 2, 2013

Prodigy of Victor von Doom

Serious Frolicking posted:

Here is a fairly tame but unnecessarily lengthy example, picked from a random chapter of a random book. It might not seem that bad, but this sort of passage is frequent enough that it gets kind of creepy.

Not as bad as the Index LNs.

quote:

Index’s actions must have sent out a very serious signal, because a blonde flight attendant with a nice body came running over. Index was still too focused on pushing all the buttons, so Kamijou was forced to bow in apology in her stead.

I highlight this passage because here they establish that this flight attendant has a nice body but the writer really really wanted to highlight that every chance he got.

quote:

The blonde flight attendant with a nice body must have heard their conversation, because she came walking down the aisle and spoke to them in polite Japanese.

quote:

Kamijou spun around and found the blonde flight attendant with a nice body standing there.

quote:

It seemed the blonde flight attendant with a nice body was waiting for someone while she held Kamijou down.

quote:

The blonde flight attendant with a nice body had given her a cheap ball-like toy because she was getting mad about the in-flight meal not arriving. It was probably a type of gift and it made a whistling sound when squeezed.

quote:

If it really was Index, who was with her? It was possible she had been captured by the blonde flight attendant with a nice body

quote:

Kamijou looked over at Index who was being held by the blonde flight attendant with a nice body and tossed the bar to the side.

quote:

The blonde flight attendant with a nice body looked at the pilot in shock after hearing that.

quote:

(The captain appeared to be in a bad mood and unwilling to speak to Kamijou, so the blonde flight attendant with a nice body had relayed that information to him.)

quote:

The blonde flight attendant with a nice body was shocked when she looked out the window while walking down a business class aisle.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.
I wouldn't call that "highlighting it" so much as that's the character's nickname for this person he doesn't know the name of. Probably sounded shorter and less awkward in Japanese.

Seraphic Neoman
Jul 19, 2011


Clarste posted:

I wouldn't call that "highlighting it" so much as that's the character's nickname for this person he doesn't know the name of. Probably sounded shorter and less awkward in Japanese.

It would be better if there was a "flight attendant with an even nicer body" so that at least you got kind of a short joke out of it. Otherwise it sounds like you're needlessly sexualizing a nameless, faceless side character.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.

SSNeoman posted:

It would be better if there was a "flight attendant with an even nicer body" so that at least you got kind of a short joke out of it. Otherwise it sounds like you're needlessly sexualizing a nameless, faceless side character.

It's true that the writer chose to create a character whose primary feature is her "nice body" but I don't see it as any different linguistically from calling someone "the bald fat guy" over and over again.

And to be perfectly honest, flight attendants and other service industry workers are often hired for their appearance.

Stall_19
Jan 2, 2013

Prodigy of Victor von Doom

Clarste posted:

It's true that the writer chose to create a character whose primary feature is her "nice body" but I don't see it as any different linguistically from calling someone "the bald fat guy" over and over again.

And to be perfectly honest, flight attendants and other service industry workers are often hired for their appearance.

Well there is no need to differentiate one flight attendant from the other as no other flight attendants are introduced in that part of the story. So just "flight attendant" would have been fine or even "blond flight attendant". I mean look at this..

quote:

The blonde flight attendant with a nice body had given her a cheap ball-like toy because she was getting mad about the in-flight meal not arriving. It was probably a type of gift and it made a whistling sound when squeezed.

It didn’t sound like it was being voluntarily squeezed. The sound came at defined intervals as if it were in someone’s pocket and rubbing up against their body as they walked.

If the toy really was a prize given for collecting a certain number of airline points, Index wouldn’t necessarily be the only person with one, but Kamijou still thought of the girl wearing the plain dress.

If it really was Index, who was with her? It was possible she had been captured by the blonde flight attendant with a nice body.

This is from the same passage. It's not like there was a need to reestablish who is being referred to here.

Stall_19 fucked around with this message at 07:44 on May 1, 2014

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.
Well, to use my same example again, there's no need to say "the bald fat guy" when it's unlikely that there's another bald guy or another fat guy in the story. However, they can be connected into a single descriptive phrase that rolls off the tongue and becomes the character's nickname in the narration. I would say this sort of thing only stands out because writing it in English is quite long and awkward. I would call it a bad translation rather than bad writing.

Xythar
Dec 22, 2004

echoes of a contemporary nation
I think you guys are reading too hard into what might have just been a bad translation of the Japanese.

It's a bit hard to judge whether it's the writer or the translator's fault unless you've read the original or asked someone who has. I'm not sure if that translation is fan or official, but basically 90% of LN fan translations (and 99% of the ones on baka-tsuki) are pretty much trash.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008

by Hand Knit
There's consistently bad and there's consistently bad in the same way.

Serious Frolicking posted:

Yeah, the ultra-nationalist who wanks about how awesome the military and the rich are is going to include a positive portrayal of a homosexual. I'm surprised the nefarious chinese who are determined to bring down glorious nippon aren't all gay.

Don't know about that, friend.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007
He lost all capacity for emotion except love for his sister and passion for burly men. But really, if that weird in-depth description of that buff guy was in the book perhaps Satou describes all of his characters in a creepy way without regards to gender. I may have just never noticed, but I'll be damned if I am re-reading the books to check.

Of course, Satou's unsettling hangups with women isn't limited to descriptive prose.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Serious Frolicking posted:

Yeah, the ultra-nationalist who wanks about how awesome the military and the rich are is going to include a positive portrayal of a homosexual. I'm surprised the nefarious chinese who are determined to bring down glorious nippon aren't all gay.

I dunno, Yukio Mishima was a dude who existed.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008

by Hand Knit
It's not gay to profess incredibly admiration for the male physique. It's only gay to receive.

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010

Xythar posted:

I think you guys are reading too hard into what might have just been a bad translation of the Japanese.

It's a bit hard to judge whether it's the writer or the translator's fault unless you've read the original or asked someone who has. I'm not sure if that translation is fan or official, but basically 90% of LN fan translations (and 99% of the ones on baka-tsuki) are pretty much trash.

Bka-Tsuki, among its many problems, has a tendency to use three long words where one short word would do.

Ytlaya posted:

Yeah, this also occurred to me. The Class 2 people should still be elite, just slightly less elite.

This is based on what I could take from the BT translation of book 1, which takes any complex explanations and makes them nearly incomprehensible.
Class 2 exists for two reasons, the first being that some people in class 1 will burn out before the three years is through, and therefore the school needs a supply of reserves in case a position in class 1 opens up.
The second reason is that there's apparently a load of support jobs that require the person to be schooled in a magic school, such as CAD engineer. People who are less apt at actually using magic practically but who are still able to use magic can receive education to help them get a support role.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Serious Frolicking posted:

Here is a fairly tame but unnecessarily lengthy example, picked from a random chapter of a random book. It might not seem that bad, but this sort of passage is frequent enough that it gets kind of creepy.

It sort of reminds me of the way food is described in food manga like Shokugeki no Souma.

Ethiser
Dec 31, 2011

Namtab posted:

The second reason is that there's apparently a load of support jobs that require the person to be schooled in a magic school, such as CAD engineer. People who are less apt at actually using magic practically but who are still able to use magic can receive education to help them get a support role.

So magic school is basically like a technical college where half the people learn to be cool secret agent's and the other half learn to work in the lab with Q.

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

Also the main character is the only one who can do both.

That's a pretty good analogy, actually.

SorcerousHam
Apr 8, 2011
The anime is pretty much never going to explain it so:

The Class 1/Class 2 system exists because of a lack of magical instructors, as already said. Class 2 act as a reserve and are expected to teach themselves everything that Class 1 would get instruction for. Class 1/Class 2 both take exactly the same tests and exactly the same exams and study the exact same material.

The reason why the system exists is because in this world, if you're a mage, you have no choice. You do mage stuff. It's the usual Japanese nationalist dystopian bullshit where everyone is out to get Japan, even its ostensible allies in the form of the USA. So basically, since mages are essential for industry (I vaguely remember that mages get used as a source of electrical power through them using magic, since they're a nigh limitless resource except through their fatigue) and military force - if you can do magic to any extent, you get shoved into magic high schools and you study magic and the government basically dictates the rest of your life. You will marry a mage and make mage babies because magic is inherited or some poo poo.

The military siphons off the cream of the crop, regardless of where they fall within the Class 1/Class 2 spectrum because they don't give a poo poo what your test scores say if you can do crazy killing bullshit with your powers. Everyone else gets to follow a dumb license system that uses the grading methods of the schools - so if you were Class A you'll become, say, a well paid super specialist magic researcher or something. Class 2 grade and you get to become a magic janitor or some poo poo. But everywhere you work is under the thumb of the military, because the world is out to get Japan.

Now according to Mr Japanese Nationalist, the reason why Blanche is objectional is because they want the mages to do magic for free because they're more powerful and they're gifted. So your magic janitor and your magic powerplant worker and your magic researcher are meant to be paid nothing for doing their stuff - even though they pretty much were given literally no choice in life. Of course since this IS a Japanese Nationalist spiel, the real reason why they're a terrible organisation is because (spoiler because I can't remember if it was revealed in episode 4 or not, but you can already guess considering the author) they are, of course, funded by China for the purpose of dicking with Japan and other nations and stealing magical research. Surprise!

As for magic engineers, actually, they'd be largely considered a Class 1 style profession. Mr Gary Stu is special because his abilities basically break the grading system over his knee. The reason is that magic works basically like faith in this world - you believe you can do it, the device speeds up the calculation, and then it happens based on your own internal power. Better devices make you better at magic, better internal power makes you better at magic. However if anything shakes your belief that you can do magic, if "magic is impossible after all" becomes a thought in your mind, you're hosed and likely to never do magic ever again. So magic engineers tend to be Class 1 because Class 1 people have more faith that other Class 1 people know what they're doing, so there's less chance of doubt creeping in and no more magic resulting.

Writing these sorts of posts makes me sad because there's some interesting world building here, but in the end it's just used for "LOL JAPAN BEST" and creepy incest antics. :(

organism
Sep 30, 2005
organism
Just to clear up some of the ideological stuff that has been poorly explained in the anime, Blanche's argument is that it's unfair that magician's are automatically given preferential status in society because of natural born talents. Tatsuya's objection is that the preferential treatment is not guaranteed because, despite inborn talent, it actually takes a lot of education and hard work to make that talent useful and it's only after all that work that magician's are given preferential treatment. Which holds true for any profession really. Just because someone has a talent for math or sports doesn't mean they automatically become a top scientist or athlete.

WickedHate
Aug 1, 2013

by Lowtax

organism posted:

Just to clear up some of the ideological stuff that has been poorly explained in the anime, Blanche's argument is that it's unfair that magician's are automatically given preferential status in society because of natural born talents. Tatsuya's objection is that the preferential treatment is not guaranteed because, despite inborn talent, it actually takes a lot of education and hard work to make that talent useful and it's only after all that work that magician's are given preferential treatment. Which holds true for any profession really. Just because someone has a talent for math or sports doesn't mean they automatically become a top scientist or athlete.

Exactly. Keep in mind also that Blanche is lying about being for equality.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012

WickedHate posted:

Exactly. Keep in mind also that Blanche is lying about being for equality.

I'm not a big fan of "the villain doesn't really believe his ideology" in general; it tends to strike me as an easy "out" to avoid the protagonists having to engage with the villain's arguments.

WickedHate
Aug 1, 2013

by Lowtax
The bad guys don't truly have an argument, though. The show isn't against equality by making the bad guys for equality because the bad guys are not for equality.

HiveCommander
Jun 19, 2012

Silver2195 posted:

I'm not a big fan of "the villain doesn't really believe his ideology" in general; it tends to strike me as an easy "out" to avoid the protagonists having to engage with the villain's arguments.

They aren't the villain. They are the post-Lenin Russian communists that thought they were fighting against the evil bourgeoisie, not knowing that they were blindly doing the bidding of the paranoid, power-tripping Joseph Stalin.

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gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007
The real villain is the society which doesn't approve of sibling incest, except without criticizing japanese society at all. I dunno, just blame the chinese for that too.

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