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Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011



Its none of that stuff, I guess my oil fields are just too small compared to the amount of refineries feeding off them. I assume you only need one refinery for a medium oil field.


I have like, five maybe six puddles with extractors on them feeding to two refineries which each feed several chemical plants but the production is slow because the oil isn't filling faster than the refineries can burn it all.

Motherfucker fucked around with this message at May 26, 2014 around 07:46

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Evilreaver
Feb 26, 2007

GEORGE IS GETTIN' AUGMENTED!

Dinosaur Gum

Motherfucker posted:

Its none of that stuff, I guess my oil fields are just too small compared to the amount of refineries feeding off them. I assume you only need one refinery for a medium oil field.


I have like, five maybe six puddles with extractors on them feeding to two refineries which each feed several chemical plants but the production is slow because the oil isn't filling faster than the refineries can burn it all.

Try adding an electric pump on each end of your pipeline to keep pressure on your refineries high?
Check your pipes, if they're half-full add a pump, if they hover at 0 or 0.1 you're set.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011



Evilreaver posted:

Try adding an electric pump on each end of your pipeline to keep pressure on your refineries high?

aw man...


Electric pumps require electric engines which require batteries which requ

EvilMike
Dec 6, 2004



Motherfucker posted:

Electric pumps require electric engines which require batteries which requ

It's kind of funny how complicated they are to make, really... I've gone without using any at all, in a fairly large pipe system, with no problems. As long as I have a steady supply of oil, my refineries and chemical plants are always at max capacity.

I mean, I'm sure they have a use somewhere, but electric engines are one of the highest tech items in the game and seem better used for robots.

Sarrisan
Oct 9, 2012


Evilreaver posted:

Keep in mind, robots have a miserable throughput compared to belts.

... (snip amazing info)


This is great, thanks. Looks like I should go for a hybrid approach, then. Still, I made a small factory with logistics robots and it looks so... clean. No rats nest of belts and splitters and underground belts and and and; just simple blocks of assemblers with a hive of bots scurrying to and fro.

Filthy Monkey
Jun 25, 2007



After playing with both, I think I prefer belts. Belts are more of a pain to set up, and need more space, but are reliable and have volume going for them. In my last couple games, I've put logistics robots down fairly low in my list of priorities.

Normally, once I get green science, I find my biggest priorities are solar power/accumulators, laser turrets, electric furnaces, and basic efficiency modules. The combination of those is what helps me catapult into the final stages.

Renaissance Robot
Oct 10, 2010

Bite my furry metal ass


I ran some numbers on a whim just now, and to supply all my furnaces (72 each for iron, steel, copper, and stone = 288) with L2 efficiency modules would require over 50 full tanks of LPG, equivalent to 92 tanks of crude if I use advanced oil processing

That's not even counting the amount I'd want for my assembly lines and miners, or the number of advanced circuits needed for blue science (well past 32000 if you want to get everything, which itself will take in the region of 70 tanks of crude oil). God only knows how much copper/iron I'll need for all those circuits

EvilMike
Dec 6, 2004



Renaissance Robot posted:

I ran some numbers on a whim just now, and to supply all my furnaces (72 each for iron, steel, copper, and stone = 288) with L2 efficiency modules would require over 50 full tanks of LPG, equivalent to 92 tanks of crude if I use advanced oil processing

That's not even counting the amount I'd want for my assembly lines and miners, or the number of advanced circuits needed for blue science (well past 32000 if you want to get everything, which itself will take in the region of 70 tanks of crude oil). God only knows how much copper/iron I'll need for all those circuits

What are you doing with that many furnaces?

Kibbles n Shits
Apr 8, 2006

burgerpug.png

Fun Shoe

Evilreaver posted:

  • Pipes have a limited throughput, but it's so high that oil will never hit it. Water can hit it if you're trying to power more than 8-10 steam engines.
  • Small Pumps will pull everything 'behind' it and push it forward, keeping pressure on your outputs high. You don't want your whole pipeline and refinery sitting at 9.9 oil, one or two pumps will keep that from happening.
  • Refineries want oil and water, so plan ahead. They only need oil to start.
  • Use a lot of underground pipes, it helps unclutter a lot, and lets you move around more. Try setting a factory somewhere on your line to fill a chest with pipes, because boy howdy you will use a ton.
  • Refineries stop working when any output is full, so have a storage for each of the three products.
  • Leave room between storage tanks for Cracking plants (Heavy->Light, Light->Petro)
  • Since Petroleum is 90% of your required output (the other 10% being Lubricant via Heavy and optionally Solid Fuel via your choice (probably also heavy)), leave room for several plants at your petrol tank.
  • Quite a few of the reactions take water, so have a source.


I'm pretty satisfied with my latest refinery iteration...



Not perfect, I miscounted a few things laying down the original lines so one of the crackers is kinda squeezed in there, but you can get the idea.

Thanks for that. Finally got my blue science up and running but jesus, it's such a clusterfuck rat's nest of belts. I honestly don't even know how I got it all working.

Renaissance Robot
Oct 10, 2010

Bite my furry metal ass


EvilMike posted:

What are you doing with that many furnaces?

Getting 2500 iron per minute. I'm really bad at planning ahead and tend to run out of odd things without realising (my ore supply is manual at the moment because I'm still figuring out how to set up a proper defence and don't want to get swarmed in the meantime), so having a high peak throughput is extremely useful, even if it does mean they're sitting cold a lot of the time.

e/ D'oh, you're right, I messed up a number somewhere; I'm actually only running 48 furnaces per thing. Still needs a buttload of oil though.

Renaissance Robot fucked around with this message at May 26, 2014 around 20:58

Deadmeat5150
Nov 21, 2005

OLD MAN YELLS AT CLAN


There has got to be a better way than this prior to have Power Armor mk2

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007

Wake up and
smell the murder.


Evilreaver posted:

Keep in mind, robots have a miserable throughput compared to belts.

Defining throughput [tp] as items per second...

Belts carry ~7 items per square (similarly, they store ~7 items per square in queue)
Basic belt: 1.8 tiles/sec = 13 tp
Fast belt: 3.6 tiles/sec = 25 tp
Express belt: 5.4 tiles/sec = 38 tp
Source: Wiki

I tested inserters by dropping a stack of 64 things in a chest, then patiently waiting for the inserter to work with a stopwatch.
Burner: who cares
Basic Inserter: 64 items in 76 seconds = 0.84 tp
Fast/Smart: 64 in 32 sec = 2 tp
Long-handed: 64 in 55 sec = 1.2 tp
When relevant, multiply by stack size research.

Trains are tricky. One car holds 15 stacks; usually 960 ore.
Testing on a huge straightaway, 640 tiles, an unburdened engine took just about twelve seconds!! to complete. The engine said it was going 1.2 Speed. In practice, I saw my typical trains averaging 0.7 Speed, and two-headed trains averaging 0.5, plus acceleration, your mileage may vary.

So call a train 0.5 speed on average, or 27 tiles/sec, with 960 items, is 25600 tp. The typical empty return trip halves the tp to a "mere" 12800, plus ten seconds of stopping at stations when optimized. This is variable, with longer distance stations taking less of a hit to tp than closer stations- especially since the train is more likely to cap its speed. Also, multiply that by the number of cars in your train. Yea.

Logicstics robots carry 1+Upgrades items over several seconds dependent on speed upgrades and distance, but even in the best case I doubt they could hit whole numbers of tp. My personal rule of thumb is to use logistics robots on things that take several seconds to craft only: processors, robot frames, science, and electric engines.

E: Fun fact: You can do the old Wallace and Gromit 'lay tracks in front of a speeding train' trick

Your math on trains is wrong. A full train of 960 items on a 30 second loop is 32 tp, to use your definition. The further a station is, the lower the tp of each train on the loop (but the more trains you can fit in the loop).

And can we just call tp IPS (Items Per Second)?

Rynoto
Apr 27, 2009
It doesn't help that I'm fat as fuck, so my face shouldn't be shown off in the first place.

So after a few games I've decided the default settings are way too easy. Solution?

Imminent game over detected

Oh god help me

E: ~15 starts later.
Shortest Game: 1 second.
Longest Game: 2 minutes.

I concede defeat.

Rynoto fucked around with this message at May 26, 2014 around 18:18

Filthy Monkey
Jun 25, 2007



Deadmeat5150 posted:

There has got to be a better way than this prior to have Power Armor mk2
Assloads of distractor capsules, and some destroyer capsules? Those are giant bases though. I am assuming you turned the enemies way up.

Evilreaver
Feb 26, 2007

GEORGE IS GETTIN' AUGMENTED!

Dinosaur Gum

IPS isn't exactly tp mathematically, I defined it wrong. I was basing some of tp's math on speed of transit, so it wasn't exactly IPS: Just like how a belt carries 7 items x 5.4 sq/sec, trains carry 960 x 27 sq/sec plus load/unload times, halved for empty return.

IPS = Items/Sec
tp = (Items * Squares traveled)/Sec

A one-car train is just barely beaten out by express belts, but is much much cheaper, and a two-car train or more stomps on express belts completely, which was the main point of my exercise I guess. IPS is probably a better metric anyway so everyone ignore me.

Hagop
May 14, 2012

First one out of the Ranger gets a prize!


Deadmeat5150 posted:

There has got to be a better way than this prior to have Power Armor mk2



Pre-fusion pre-power armor their is no good way to kill evolved nests out side of tower rush.

If your just trying to farm up artifacts you can car rush a 3 spawner basic nest, if it has no worms. You should be able to find a bunch of these a chunk or two passed the edge of your pollution cloud.

Basically you drive your car into one spawner which will kill it and you car, and shoot the other two with a max blue upgraded sub-machine gun. Once you get good at it you should managed to kill all three before the first advanced spawn happens. You can get the 100 or so artifacts you need for power armor and a fusion gen this way fairly quickly if you bring some fish.

However I not sure its any faster than tower rushing or just shotgunning or flamering down nest early in the game.

whiteshark12
Oct 21, 2010

How that gun even works underwater I don't know, but I bet the answer is magic.

I'm currently drowning in the amount of iron ore i'm getting from my train network, is it more efficient to smelt iron in electric or steel furnaces? I can stick speed modules in the electric furnaces but they're bigger and I have access to solid fuels anyway so that isn't much of a problem.

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012



whiteshark12 posted:

I'm currently drowning in the amount of iron ore i'm getting from my train network, is it more efficient to smelt iron in electric or steel furnaces? I can stick speed modules in the electric furnaces but they're bigger and I have access to solid fuels anyway so that isn't much of a problem.

If you get all of your electricity from boilers and don’t use any modules, they’re just about the same. Remember that you have to feed fuel to steel furnaces, which negates their size advantage.

Platystemon fucked around with this message at May 26, 2014 around 23:31

Deadmeat5150
Nov 21, 2005

OLD MAN YELLS AT CLAN


Filthy Monkey posted:

Assloads of distractor capsules, and some destroyer capsules? Those are giant bases though. I am assuming you turned the enemies way up.

I did turn the bases WAY up.

Fujoshisaur
Sep 5, 2006

It doesn't matter now, come on get happy

whiteshark12 posted:

I'm currently drowning in the amount of iron ore i'm getting from my train network, is it more efficient to smelt iron in electric or steel furnaces? I can stick speed modules in the electric furnaces but they're bigger and I have access to solid fuels anyway so that isn't much of a problem.

It depends on what you're primary concern is - electric furnaces running speed 3 modules will always be more space-efficient than steel furnaces, but they'll be a good deal less energy efficient. Steel is more energy efficient, if solid fuel is a negligible cost for you, but the pollution can get very bad compared to electric furnaces running off solar, so you have to devote more time and resources to defenses.

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012



Is there any point to beacons besides squeezing a little extra flow out of oil wells?

In my mind, their huge energy consumption rules out using them with efficiency modules (that and the fact that you can’t get below 20% of base electrical consumption). Speed modules are only good if you’re too tight on space or too lazy to build parallel production lines, but beacons are big and force you to design your factory around them.

Platystemon fucked around with this message at May 27, 2014 around 06:27

Evilreaver
Feb 26, 2007

GEORGE IS GETTIN' AUGMENTED!

Dinosaur Gum

Platystemon posted:

Is there any point to beacons besides squeezing a little extra flow out of oil wells?

In my mind, their huge energy consumption rules out using them with efficiency modules (that and the fact that you can’t get below 20% of base electrical consumption). Speed modules are only good if you’re too tight on space or two lazy to build parallel production lines, but beacons are big and force you to design your factory around them.

Beacons are only good for milking a few extra percentage points out of one or two factories. You'll never break even with Efficiency, literally cannot use Production, so if you need a factory to go just a little faster, then beacons are for you.

I'm planning to use one for my Processor factory- gonna squeeze four around the beacon and load the lot of them with speed modules, then desperately try to feed circuit boards to them fast enough to meet demand. All this using no green power at all. Challenge runs!

Rapner
May 7, 2013



I'm just now getting into loving about with oil, but I'm finding the enemies in sandbox mode to be SUPER easy. I'm playing full black.

If I restart with more aggressive/plentiful enemies am I going to regret it later? I prefer a Dwarf Fortressy kind of challenge.

Filthy Monkey
Jun 25, 2007



A lot of it depends on the proximity of enemy bases to your starting location, and whether or not you have trees to absorb pollution. A desert start near enemy bases is going to be harder than an isolated forested start.

The actual difficulty still needs some balancing, really.

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012



Goddamn do massed turrets guzzle electricity, even when they’re not shooting at anything. I really ought to rethink my defence, use more walls and fewer turrets.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011



Landmines are also nice if you're rocking bots as well.

Filthy Monkey
Jun 25, 2007



Eh, just build more solar panels and accumulators. In my last big base idle laser turrets were my biggest energy consumer.

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012



I built some walls, but now the biters just walk around them instead of bashing headlong against them.

They’ll walk right into a turret emplacement, but now that there’s a wall they get smart on me.

Renaissance Robot
Oct 10, 2010

Bite my furry metal ass


Make a little maze of walls so you use fewer turrets/play tower defence (I haven't actually tried this yet)



Is there a quicker way to set filters for smart arms/stack limits for chests? It's a royal pain going through 24 chests in a two-wagon station to make sure things get distributed evenly.

Renaissance Robot fucked around with this message at May 27, 2014 around 11:15

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012



There’s a shortcut to copy smart inserter settings. If I recall correctly, it works by shift (left) clicking on the inserter with the settings you want, continuing to hold shift, and clicking on the ones you want to paste the settings to.

I’ve never tried it on chests.

Zteuer
Nov 8, 2009


Platystemon posted:

There’s a shortcut to copy smart inserter settings. If I recall correctly, it works by shift (left) clicking on the inserter with the settings you want, continuing to hold shift, and clicking on the ones you want to paste the settings to.

I’ve never tried it on chests.

Shift+right click to copy settings and shift left click to paste. It will remember the last settings you copied.

homeless snail
Mar 14, 2007



Platystemon posted:

Goddamn do massed turrets guzzle electricity, even when they’re not shooting at anything. I really ought to rethink my defence, use more walls and fewer turrets.
Honestly, gun turrets are way more practical than laser turrets unless you really need to protect the middle of fuckin nowhere. Just set up a circuit network to manage your ammo belts so you aren't wasting all your metal on bullets.

Evilreaver
Feb 26, 2007

GEORGE IS GETTIN' AUGMENTED!

Dinosaur Gum

Don't use massed laser turrets! I see a lot of screenshots with people lining walls with hundreds of turrets, that's just silly. Make hardpoints and pillboxes where attacks actually occur, bugs are attracted to guns, and you cut your turret count (and thus energy need) from 200/wall to 8/box.

Deadmeat5150
Nov 21, 2005

OLD MAN YELLS AT CLAN


I've started using a ton of landmines and laughing at the attempts of silly biters trying to reach my walls. I've expanded out into four satellite bases now that bring in my metals and they are all protected by robot-laid mine fields.

Nuclearmonkee
Jun 10, 2009


Filthy Monkey posted:

Assloads of distractor capsules, and some destroyer capsules? Those are giant bases though. I am assuming you turned the enemies way up.

This is what I do. Then just run in with a shotgun while the biters chase capsules and blow the bases away. Assuming you have speed boosts in your power armor you should be able to run away after killing 2 or 3 without dying. I do generally try to pull the first big wave of them into a minefield as well so the capsules take longer to get overwhelmed.

If the base has worms you have to be very careful and do a few runs with poison until they are dead before going in to kill it normally. Worms are assholes.

If you are playing with enemies turned up it gets extremely dangerous really fast though. Just have to get enough for a mk2 power armor with a portable fusion gen and your favorite biter fucker loadout. Speed imo is the most important one and I generally stack it. You can basically run in circles around everything and snipe spawners when you get a chance.

Big aoe stuff like chucking piles of grenades, the big explosive rockets or using the discharge thingie becomes practically required later on due to the sheer quantity of biters that those spawner cities generate. Nothing is more cool than running in tricked out with maxed everything and killing all of the alien scum in a blaze of fire and explosions.

MS Paint
Sep 21, 2007

Boring Ass Troll


So I started playing this late last night. Got a steam engine going, with boilers being fed by a coal electric miner, copper and iron miners being fed to steel furnaces outputting to iron chests.

nothing is streamlined at all. It is literally a production poo poo house.

EvilMike
Dec 6, 2004



Nuclearmonkee posted:

This is what I do. Then just run in with a shotgun while the biters chase capsules and blow the bases away. Assuming you have speed boosts in your power armor you should be able to run away after killing 2 or 3 without dying. I do generally try to pull the first big wave of them into a minefield as well so the capsules take longer to get overwhelmed.

If the base has worms you have to be very careful and do a few runs with poison until they are dead before going in to kill it normally. Worms are assholes.

If you are playing with enemies turned up it gets extremely dangerous really fast though. Just have to get enough for a mk2 power armor with a portable fusion gen and your favorite biter fucker loadout. Speed imo is the most important one and I generally stack it. You can basically run in circles around everything and snipe spawners when you get a chance.

Big aoe stuff like chucking piles of grenades, the big explosive rockets or using the discharge thingie becomes practically required later on due to the sheer quantity of biters that those spawner cities generate. Nothing is more cool than running in tricked out with maxed everything and killing all of the alien scum in a blaze of fire and explosions.

If there's enough open space you can just use the car instead of power armour. Drive around in circles spamming whatever your favourite weapon is, and just let the biters keep chasing you. A maxed out combat shotgun takes down bases quick, but if you don't have that, explosives are good enough. The only problem with the car is if you crash, you're probably going to die.

Renaissance Robot
Oct 10, 2010

Bite my furry metal ass


Finally got around to bashing out a proper replacement for my crappy central bus circuit line that was choking my output:



With the cable assemblers' output perfectly matched to the demand of the circuit assemblers and split up to avoid belt jams, everything can run full tilt all the time, netting me 1000 basic circuits per minute and even then, at the end of the line I'll only be getting about 30 processing units per minute. It's never enough

d3c0y2
Sep 29, 2009


So how the hell do boilers work, ive got 5 in a row, fueled and everything and yet the water is still only going into the engine at 10 degrees. The wiki says speed affects it but I have no idea how to slow the water down.

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FISHMANPET
Mar 3, 2007

Sweet 'N Sour
Can't
Melt
Steel Beams


You need to feed the hot water into a steam engine.

Any idea what happens if you put oil or a by product through a boiler to try and heat it?

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