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Inverness
Feb 4, 2009

Fully configurable personal assistant.

Royal W posted:

It wouldn't be too bad if you made the overheating mechanic something uncomfortable but not painful; like a factory slowdown as opposed to buildings blowing up.
It could be an interesting new layer to have to tie your buildings together with heat pipe and then send the heat to a water powered cooling tower.
Doing something with heat pipe is why I started thinking about this in the first place.

That does sound interesting. I think it could go well with assemblers, mining drills, and science labs, but maybe not anything else. Those 3 things are common and essential so it would have a big impact if you to deal with them producing heat in order to keep them working.

You could then deal with the reverse for cold maps instead of just making things take more electricity directly.

Solumin posted:

Temperature is already part of map generation, along with moisture. They talk about this in the most recent FFF.
That temperature is just for map biomes. I meant more as something that affected gameplay after map generation.

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Mr. Powers
Jun 28, 2005

white and gold.


On the cold side, you guys basically want a Frost Punk mod for Factorio. That would be cool.

Frostorio Punk

Evilreaver
Feb 26, 2007

GEORGE IS GETTIN' AUGMENTED!

Dinosaur Gum

Inverness posted:

I was looking at the wiki page for heat pipes and had a thought. What if map generation included temperature and this affected how you created a factory? I'm not talking about a full weather system, but temperature only.

On a cold map:
* Visually the map would be covered in snow and nice, but no weather otherwise.
* Many things that use electricity might draw more of it in order to compensate for the colder temperature.
* At night the temperature decreases and power requirements increase in order to keep everything heated.
* All surface water is frozen, thickly enough that you can build some things on the ice that are not too heavy like belts, pipes, inserters, and small power poles. Nothing underground of course.
* Getting running water from a lake would require a powered water pump to deal with the cold temperature of what is under the ice.
* Water and steam would cool off in pipes and tanks depending on the outside temperature. No more storing steam indefinitely. Insulated pipes and tanks could be an upgrade though that only lowers the rate of temperature decrease.

In general it would make everything use more power and add more flavor to the game, but not be too big a change to gameplay.

I don't think having a hot map would be similarly impactful without introducing an overheating mechanic which I don't think would be fun.

I'm the kind of wierdo who would like some sort of 'maintenance' mechanic, where machines heat up under constant use and eventually damage themselves and slow down, eventually grinding to a halt. Densely packed structures tend to overheat easier, efficiency-modded structures overheat slower (or not at all past a threshold). Early game you fix assemblers by hand (or just upgrade them as you tech up), then use circuits to switch clusters of buildings on and off to keep them in peak performance, then later use efficiency modules/beacons to extend uptime or just have a hellstorm of bots repairing them.

Further, I believe they should merge the "equipment grid" and "modules" mechanics- make modules 2x2 with similar grid sizes, but this allows you to mount solar panels in things (for remote bases), mount laser defenses or shields in things, etc. Allowing shields and/or laser defenses to be mounted in beacons and their effects spread out could make beacons a neat addition to static defenses.

Canuckistan
Jan 14, 2004

I'm the greatest thing since World War III.


Soiled Meat

Evilreaver posted:

I'm the kind of wierdo who would like some sort of 'maintenance' mechanic, where machines heat up under constant use and eventually damage themselves and slow down, eventually grinding to a halt.

This is bad and you should feel bad. You're a sick puppy.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Make snow a resource. Your drones will go out and shovel it, but they'll complaint the whole time. Build a megabase that produces 10 snowmen/s. Constructible snow fort walls. Snowball turrets fed by an assembly line. The recipe uses snow + stone brick.

Nth Doctor
Sep 7, 2010

Darkrai used Dream Eater!
It's super effective!



Lipstick Apathy

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Make snow a resource. Your drones will go out and shovel it, but they'll complaint the whole time. Build a megabase that produces 10 snowmen/s. Constructible snow fort walls. Snowball turrets fed by an assembly line. The recipe uses snow + stone brick.

Use snow and a new wood pulp product and make poo poo out of pycrete.

TigerXtrm
Feb 2, 2019


How badly are 0.16 saves expected to break upon 0.17's release? Is there going to be issues with map generation and stuff? Will saves get corrupted?

I'm contemplating if I want to stay on 0.16 to keep working on my current factory. Starting over is not something I'm very eager for right now.

Ratzap
Jun 9, 2012

Let no pie go wasted


Soiled Meat

TigerXtrm posted:

How badly are 0.16 saves expected to break upon 0.17's release? Is there going to be issues with map generation and stuff? Will saves get corrupted?

I'm contemplating if I want to stay on 0.16 to keep working on my current factory. Starting over is not something I'm very eager for right now.

They always have a seamless save file migration. I've only ever lost one save in 1500 hours play and that was a bug in an experimental release. Do not worry.

Roflex
Jan 13, 2007


Since it seems they're changing map generation algorithms again, newly generated chunks may not be seamless with existing ones. You're also going to have to rebuild most science that isn't red + green (and maybe even green). Smelters and some builds will probably break a bit (you'll have less than full belts, and anything that depends on belt timing (some kovarex builds) might also break, since belts are faster). And new science recipes will also probably mean your mining/smelting operations will be a bit off from what you need to fulfill everything (heavier on copper, lighter on steel iirc).

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Wait, belts are getting faster?

Dietrich
Sep 11, 2001



Yep, to keep belt contents divisible by 8. New numbers will be 15/30/60.

https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-276

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


That's fantastic news; thanks for linking it. I should probably read their announcements more regularly.

Royal W
Jun 20, 2008


Tuxedo Catfish posted:

That's fantastic news; thanks for linking it. I should probably read their announcements more regularly.

If you're keeping score at home, that means that blue belts are getting their throughput buffed by 50%; they currently move items at 40/sec.

KirbyKhan
Mar 20, 2009



Soiled Meat

I play with the Bobs Logistics that gives you the grey belt and flattens the calculation on items/sec on belts.

This change makes me happy. Spreadsheetorio is a fine game, but I enjoy napkin mathtorio far more.

Royal W
Jun 20, 2008


E: Reading for understanding is for winners!

Royal W fucked around with this message at Feb 19, 2019 around 07:37

Truga
May 4, 2014


Lipstick Apathy

Wish the numbers were 16/32/64, but yeah it'll be great.

RiotGearEpsilon
Jun 26, 2005
SHAVE ME FROM MY SHELF

Where's the bit about 60? I don't see anything on that site that indicates they're changing the 1/2/3 ratio.

Syka
Mar 24, 2007
sum n00b or wut?

I'm pretty sure it'll be 15/30/45, not 15/30/60.

Loren1350
Mar 30, 2007


RiotGearEpsilon posted:

Where's the bit about 60? I don't see anything on that site that indicates they're changing the 1/2/3 ratio.

It's so the spriting doesn't interact gross with the framerate.

Some of the Sheep
May 25, 2005
POSSIBLY IT WOULD BE SIMPLER IF I ASKED FOR A LIST OF THE HARMLESS CREATURES OF THE AFORESAID CONTINENT?

Syka posted:

I'm pretty sure it'll be 15/30/45, not 15/30/60.

That's right, blue belts are 3 times faster than yellows, not 2 times faster than reds.

corgski
Feb 6, 2007



The FFF says that it's a flat 12.5% buff across the board, so 15/30/45 is right.

GotLag
Jul 17, 2005

食べちゃダメだよ


Truga posted:

Wish the numbers were 16/32/64, but yeah it'll be great.

Increase your UPS to 64, problem solved

Dietrich
Sep 11, 2001



Yeah sorry my bad for the 60 number, I've been realizing epic fuckups in my base designs before I really get to needing a ton of blue belts so I don't have a ton of experience with them.

LonsomeSon
Nov 22, 2009

A fishperson in an intimidating hat!


Folks here often say that blue belts aren't worth the huge amount of iron per tile which is required for them, which just goes to show you that their committment to this thread's ideology is less than pure.

The correct answer is that there's no such thing as too fast for belts or too expensive in Factorio! Shame if you are not plowing thousands of tonnes of iron ore and thousands of liters of lube into making belts which mostly just sit full run faster! The factory must expand to meet the needs of the expanding factory!

Alkydere
Jun 7, 2010
Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.

I will say that adopting them too early can choke a base, but yeah. 111.5 iron/tile is totally reasonable once you get going! If it's not, well that means you just don't have enough iron.

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMPIN' ON INTO THE POWER LINES

Exciting Lemon

111 iron per tile is nothing once you start going through hundreds of third tier modules per assembler block.

Evilreaver
Feb 26, 2007

GEORGE IS GETTIN' AUGMENTED!

Dinosaur Gum

LonsomeSon posted:

Folks here often say that blue belts aren't worth the huge amount of iron per tile which is required for them, which just goes to show you that their committment to this thread's ideology is less than pure.

The correct answer is that there's no such thing as too fast for belts or too expensive in Factorio! Shame if you are not plowing thousands of tonnes of iron ore and thousands of liters of lube into making belts which mostly just sit full run faster! The factory must expand to meet the needs of the expanding factory!

I'm a big fan of AngelBobs Turbo and Ultimate belts, despite their hilarious pricetag the speed they offer is 'spicy' and 'extra spicy' respectively.

Mr. Powers
Jun 28, 2005

white and gold.


I would argue that if your blue belts are full and not moving, you either overbuilt production (wrong) or underbuilt consumption (right).

Jeesis
Mar 4, 2010

I am the second illegitimate son of gawd who resides in hoaven.

I am thinking of getting into modding and have no experience with LUA, only a chunk of understanding python. Other than the wiki and api documentation, what are some good resources/basic mod ideas I should look at? I was thinking of just making something really basic and putting it into the game with a built in sprite then going from there.

I want to make a radio mod for the circuit network or possibly setup using rails for transmitting circuits. I know radio mods already exist but I feel like they are doing things in weird ways when it comes to balancing, also I want to go crazy and setup transmission frequencies to allow multiple signals I assume this is not possible as the circuit network seemingly only allows for 2 wires thus 2 separations.

RPATDO_LAMD
Mar 22, 2013



Mr. Powers posted:

I would argue that if your blue belts are full and not moving, you either overbuilt production (wrong) or underbuilt consumption (right).

Those are the same thing.
The solution either way is just to consume more.

uPen
Jan 25, 2010

Zu Rodina!

Blue belts are amazing because the length of their underground lets you do really cool things with train stations if you're making belted unloading stations.

Roflex
Jan 13, 2007


M_Gargantua posted:

111 iron per tile is nothing once you start going through hundreds of third tier modules per assembler block.

And people tend to overlook that these are one-time costs, much like assemblers, furnaces, beacons, inserters, and logistics chests. Productivity modules "pay back" their costs directly through extra products, but everything else also pays itself back in opportunity cost. Upgrading belts/inserters/assemblers and beaconing things gives you shorter production lines, lower latency, and generally reduced UPS cost.

Slightly related: Playing the randomizer with randomized belt speeds is a new kind of fun, especially combined with randomized furnace stats.

spckr
Aug 3, 2014

here we go


Are furnace speeds going to change in .17? Iíve been playing with one of the 0.17 science mods and I just noticed that copper and iron plates take 3.2s instead of 3.5. I couldnít find anything about that in the Friday facts though

Microcline
Jul 27, 2012

For every
volunteer
an opportunity.


Roflex posted:

And people tend to overlook that these are one-time costs, much like assemblers, furnaces, beacons, inserters, and logistics chests. Productivity modules "pay back" their costs directly through extra products, but everything else also pays itself back in opportunity cost. Upgrading belts/inserters/assemblers and beaconing things gives you shorter production lines, lower latency, and generally reduced UPS cost.

Slightly related: Playing the randomizer with randomized belt speeds is a new kind of fun, especially combined with randomized furnace stats.

The problem I usually see is that people try to use blue belts casually (i.e. in non-critical areas) before having the industrial base to support it. Blue belts require a massive amount of iron and will sink all the iron in the bus if you don't have external mining or smelting bases feeding in and a few bus optimizations (e.g. wiring the iron and copper directly into the green chip factory instead of going plates -> bus -> gc factory). Red belts spend a good amount of time as your default "I think this is going to be a bottleneck, but I haven't empirically confirmed it" option.

Magus42
Jan 12, 2007

Oh no you di'n't

WHOMP there it jizz posted:

Are furnace speeds going to change in .17? Iíve been playing with one of the 0.17 science mods and I just noticed that copper and iron plates take 3.2s instead of 3.5. I couldnít find anything about that in the Friday facts though

In the belt speed FFF they mention they might look at changing it but not necessarily immediately.

Inverness
Feb 4, 2009

Fully configurable personal assistant.

I really hope the 0.17 testing goes well and they release it Monday next week.

Gay Hitler
Dec 11, 2006

I'm gay as heil!

Inverness posted:

I really hope the 0.17 testing goes well and they release it Monday next week.

I have all next week so hell yeah. Not sure how long Angel's and Bob's will take to update tho

Roflex
Jan 13, 2007


Microcline posted:

The problem I usually see is that people try to use blue belts casually (i.e. in non-critical areas) before having the industrial base to support it. Blue belts require a massive amount of iron and will sink all the iron in the bus if you don't have external mining or smelting bases feeding in and a few bus optimizations (e.g. wiring the iron and copper directly into the green chip factory instead of going plates -> bus -> gc factory). Red belts spend a good amount of time as your default "I think this is going to be a bottleneck, but I haven't empirically confirmed it" option.

Much like productivity modules, there's places where it will pay off sooner. Generally an upgrade by itself doesn't do much unless you have the smelting or manufacturing to support it. Iron mines generally get the first ones, just on the bottom ends of the belts and through the balancer to the train. Then through to the iron unload station and smelters (you made sure to leave enough room at the end of your smelter lines to upgrade, right?), especially the lanes feeding gears. After that it's usually the copper mines, and enough smelter lines to upgrade green chips (which I will usually tear up and replace with a beaconed build, even if I don't have the modules yet). Now that gears are uncorked, you're running out of lube, which isn't a belt problem, so go off and fix that while modules get made. Once lategame oil is up and running, it's then a process of tearing up and rebuilding blue chips to make use of all these green chips you're making, and then upgrading red chips in some fashion (usually in situ, since you just need so many machines that module/beaconing them is one of the last things to do - once you're up to several modules per minute production).

This all is also why the bus optimizations you mentioned are really important to design in from the start - if you're pulling 2 lanes of iron to make gears from your 4-lane blue bus with a red-belt-ratioed smelter, you're really only left with 1 red belt of iron plates and 1 blue belt of gears. I have no idea why there's ever a debate about "do you bus gears" since you're either bussing gears or sending a mostly-empty iron bus down the road.

Roflex fucked around with this message at Feb 20, 2019 around 05:52

Ratzap
Jun 9, 2012

Let no pie go wasted


Soiled Meat

Gay Hitler posted:

I have all next week so hell yeah. Not sure how long Angel's and Bob's will take to update tho

Bobs author has source access and he said in his play through videos that he released recently that he has been reworking Bobs mods for months as 0.17 took shape. I would expect his stuff will be done on day one or close to it. Angels - no idea, don't care much either.

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Jeesis
Mar 4, 2010

I am the second illegitimate son of gawd who resides in hoaven.

Stocking up for .17 in a semi-efficient-extremely-inefficient way .


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