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See this is why I always ask in here before I get too excited about anything.
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May 31, 2014 21:49
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small dudes tend to end up in relief because teams believe that small dudes should be relievers
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May 31, 2014 21:53
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Toronto lists Marcus Stroman at 5'9". Here is a complete list of pitchers 5'9" or shorter who have thrown over 180 innings in a season since 1961: Tom Phoebus (1967-69) Fred Norman (1972-77, 1979) Tom Gordon (1990, 1995-97) Given the choice between there being something to the idea that guys with smaller, less sturdy frames being unable to handle the rigorous workload of a modern professional MLB starter's season and the idea that everyone in baseball up to and including every lauded smart front office currently in operation is full of morons writing off the competitive advantage of short pitchers as starters without giving them a fair shake, I'm gonna go with the former. Additionally: Marcus Stroman? Not actually 5'9". Probably closer to 5'7", if that. Crion fucked around with this message at 22:13 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 22:03
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its a eugenicist conspiracy actually
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May 31, 2014 22:10
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Crion posted:Toronto lists Marcus Stroman at 5'9". Here is a complete list of pitchers 5'9" or shorter who have thrown over 180 innings in a season since 1961: yes because everyone knows it's better to have a tall, durable workhorse like matt harvey, matt moore or jose fernandez
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May 31, 2014 22:13
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bluh posted:yes because everyone knows it's better to have a tall, durable workhorse like matt harvey, matt moore or jose fernandez Oh, well, three guys got hurt, better assume that every front office since the 60s is completely fuckin stupid.
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May 31, 2014 22:16
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my point is that there's not any actual known link between the height of a pitcher and their risk for injury e: and if we're going to include broad appeals to authority here, the Blue Jays FO hasn't immediately converted him to relief so I guess they have no clue what they're doing Jim Dwyer fucked around with this message at 22:23 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 22:18
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bluh posted:the Blue Jays FO hasn't immediately converted him to relief so I guess they have no clue what they're doing There's a lot of evidence that this is true!
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May 31, 2014 22:24
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I don't think anyone said anything about shorter pitchers tearing their UCLs more often, so I really have no idea what you think you're talking about And the Blue Jays have handled Stroman fine so far. You give a guy his chance to start until he proves he can't -- for Stroman, this will likely involve flagging late in the season around the 130-140 inning mark, if not sooner -- and then you proceed from there. Teams can tell when guys are fatigued and not pitching as effectively, and can change their plans accordingly. Crion fucked around with this message at 22:27 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 22:24
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bluh posted:my point is that there's not any actual known link between the height of a pitcher and their risk for injury Crion posted:Toronto lists Marcus Stroman at 5'9". Here is a complete list of pitchers 5'9" or shorter who have thrown over 180 innings in a season since 1961:
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May 31, 2014 22:28
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Crion posted:I don't think anyone said anything about shorter pitchers tearing their UCLs more often, so I really have no idea what you think you're talking about You claimed shorter pitchers can't handle the workload of starting. I'm saying that to my knowledge, there's no real link between height and injury risk, and that it's all broad stereotyping without actual data backing it up. Feel free to prove me wrong if there's some kind of study on the subject I just don't happen to be aware of!
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May 31, 2014 22:31
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bluh posted:You claimed shorter pitchers can't handle the workload of starting. I'm saying that to my knowledge, there's no real link between height and injury risk, and that it's all broad stereotyping without actual data backing it up. Feel free to prove me wrong if there's some kind of study on the subject I just don't happen to be aware of! well you're the one who posited that MLB organizations don't want short guys to be starters, so really the onus to provide evidence is on you.
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May 31, 2014 22:40
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Politicalrancor posted:well you're the one who posited that MLB organizations don't want short guys to be starters, so really the onus to provide evidence is on you. well you already have the small list of real short guys who have thrown 180+ innings at the MLB level, that seems like good evidence to me! There's obviously a lot of factors in play, but there is a tendency toward taller guys as starters. I just think it's dumb to pigeonhole a guy because no one his size has done it before - like, you'll never know if he can or not unless he's given the opportunity, because there's basically no precedent. No need to shovel dirt on him until there's actually reason to believe he can't be effective as a starter.
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May 31, 2014 22:58
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Or maybe most baseball players are taller than 5'9". Pitchers as a group are the tallest but most short dudes play 2B/SS anyway.
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May 31, 2014 23:00
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Spoeank posted:Or maybe most baseball players are taller than 5'9". Pitchers as a group are the tallest but most short dudes play 2B/SS anyway. I feel like there should be a separate bar on there just for Jose Altuve.
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May 31, 2014 23:03
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For context, Marcus Stroman's listed height is 69 inches (though he's probably 66 or 67), meaning he doesn't even make it past the x-axis of that graph.
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May 31, 2014 23:04
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I was under the impression that being tall was just a natural advantage for a pitcher and it's harder to pitch effectively when you're a little guy. Like, for the same reasons they lowered the mound way back when.
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May 31, 2014 23:05
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My left-handed fielding 6'7'' SS in MVP 2004 can only exist in a video game
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May 31, 2014 23:05
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Maybe Doc's arm feels better.
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May 31, 2014 23:05
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Crion posted:Marcus Stroman's listed height is 69 inches Nice
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May 31, 2014 23:07
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Grittybeard posted:I was under the impression that being tall was just a natural advantage for a pitcher and it's harder to pitch effectively when you're a little guy. Like, for the same reasons they lowered the mound way back when. Yep, it's not all about injuries, though with a good enough fastball you can generally overcome that particular disadvantage. The question is how close to max effort the shorter pitcher has to go on every pitch in order to maintain a fastball that good, and how deep he can go into a game when he's throwing that close to max effort.
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May 31, 2014 23:10
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Someone here needs to become a kinesiologist so that they can answer the physics of these kinds of things. I mean, empirically it sure seems like the taller the better, but I do wonder about the physics of a small guy pitching vs the physics of a tall guy pitching.
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May 31, 2014 23:10
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It's also worth noting that being tall doesn't save you from having a poo poo fastball if you, in fact, have a poo poo fastball. Hello, Mark Hendrickson.
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May 31, 2014 23:11
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Grittybeard posted:I was under the impression that being tall was just a natural advantage for a pitcher and it's harder to pitch effectively when you're a little guy. Like, for the same reasons they lowered the mound way back when. Yes, and the Jays have Jason Frasor in the recent past to look at for how being short can effect a pitcher even once they're in relief. But, on the other hand, Height Don't Measure Heart.
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May 31, 2014 23:12
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Grittybeard posted:I was under the impression that being tall was just a natural advantage for a pitcher and it's harder to pitch effectively when you're a little guy. Like, for the same reasons they lowered the mound way back when. The working theory is that taller guys have bigger frames, allowing them to put on more beneficial mass, which helps their durability. And let's not confuse "durability" with "never gets injured." Being durable can simply mean you're able to go throw more pitches, which generally translates to more innings, before tiring out. In a normal, injury free, season a pitcher will get 32-35 starts or so, meaning to hit 180 innings they don't even need to average 6 IP per start. Crion posted:Yep, it's not all about injuries, though with a good enough fastball you can generally overcome that particular disadvantage. The question is how close to max effort the shorter pitcher has to go on every pitch in order to maintain a fastball that good, and how deep he can go into a game when he's throwing that close to max effort. This too. Being taller = longer arms = a longer lever arm, which means more velocity from the same amount of effort compared to a shorter one! IcePhoenix fucked around with this message at 23:15 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 23:12
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Hand Knit posted:But, on the other hand, Height Don't Measure Heart. Nor cool buff dad genes 
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May 31, 2014 23:14
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bluh posted:well you already have the small list of real short guys who have thrown 180+ innings at the MLB level, that seems like good evidence to me! There's obviously a lot of factors in play, but there is a tendency toward taller guys as starters. I just think it's dumb to pigeonhole a guy because no one his size has done it before - like, you'll never know if he can or not unless he's given the opportunity, because there's basically no precedent. No need to shovel dirt on him until there's actually reason to believe he can't be effective as a starter. there's two arguments going on here. 1. that extremely short pitchers like stroman can't handle the rigors of a full season as a starter and 2. that teams are biased against short starters and therefore short guys just don't get a chance even if the first were not true, the second still would be. there is no evidence that a pitcher as short as stroman will be able to succeed as a starter longterm, there is lots of evidence that teams will convert a pitcher of his height into a reliever.
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May 31, 2014 23:23
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MassaShowtime posted:Nor cool buff dad genes I know I spell dad "H-G-H"
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May 31, 2014 23:26
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MassaShowtime posted:Nor cool buff dad genes The father is jacked and the son got Jack3d.
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May 31, 2014 23:34
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I don't know who that dude is but he's wearing Duke stuff so I hope they leave him as a starter and his shoulder rips apart irreparably.
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May 31, 2014 23:38
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yall got rhabuf'd
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Jun 1, 2014 00:42
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Groucho Marxist posted:yall got rhabuf'd oh loving goddamnit
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Jun 1, 2014 00:45
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I have banned like 20 rhabuf re-regs and that guys doesn't write anything like him.
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Jun 1, 2014 00:55
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MourningView posted:I have banned like 20 rhabuf re-regs and that guys doesn't write anything like him. He's learning. Adapting.
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Jun 1, 2014 01:02
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I think there is a definite selection bias at work with short pitchers vs tall pitchers. Just like how in the past when Branch Rickey would hold mass try outs he'd cut everyone who couldn't throw first, then everyone who couldn't run, and if you made it past that you'd get to hit. David Ortiz never would have made it to the BP portion! But when you're dealing with having to find major league caliber players out of a group of thousands, you may as well bias your selection to narrow the field to something manageable, its like whatever.
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Jun 1, 2014 01:25
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branch rickey is so loving stupid
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Jun 1, 2014 02:08
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Groucho Marxist posted:branch rickey is so loving stupid Eh, it was a different era. And he did a few things right.
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Jun 1, 2014 02:12
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Welcome to the Anthony Rizzo Own Zone. at the Cubs putting up an eight spot for Jason Hammel. Every Cub run scored on a non-Samardzija day is an act of passive aggression against Samardzija because of his haircut (a theory)
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Jun 1, 2014 05:07
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R.D. Mangles posted:Welcome to the Anthony Rizzo Own Zone. You know, this is a theory I can get behind.
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Jun 1, 2014 05:31
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Wellll Henderson Alvarez had a good bullpen session today and is expected to start vs Rays. Reliever Carter Capps is getting a second opinion on his elbow from James Andrews. Fire it up.
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Jun 1, 2014 05:58
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