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AlternateAccount
Apr 25, 2005
FYGM


Man, I really appreciate this article. I don't really care if the show portrays things "correctly" by some abstract metric, I don't care if it was capital-R rape and I don't feel obligated to define it. What I do care about is the interactions and the story being told and I don't know why politics has to always enter into it.

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TheRationalRedditor
Jul 17, 2000

WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.


I've disagreed with an article or three from Greenwald before, but this legit truthbomb reminds that he's one of the most insightful TV-centric writers going right now. This 24/7 superficial, dishonest omni-partisan dialogue the internet is mired in is riddled with sad human voids that crave instant entitled satisfaction. "Too much reflex, not enough reflection" is a drat astute way to sum it up.

violetdragon
Jul 27, 2006

RAWR


regulargonzalez posted:

Incidentally, I forgot to mention that she is the one who proposed to him. She hasn't had an abusive childhood, she wasn't mentally warped or neurotic or damaged. Why did a staunch feminist propose to him if she had been raped, instead of immediately calling the police or at least never talking to him again?

Who the hell knows why people do what they do? If she didn't give some kind of consent, the guy raped her. You didn't give any information about how she initially reacted to all this. Maybe the second he pulled her hair, she decided she liked it and played along or maybe she felt differently after the fact. Who knows? But if she didn't consent in some way, he raped her. Period. Why would a lady marry a guy who raped her? People are complicated and messy and do bizarre, nonsensical poo poo all the time.

BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

The most uncomfortable thing about this thread is how much of Pamela's agency is ignored.

Honore_De_Balzac
Feb 12, 2013



BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:

The most uncomfortable thing about this thread is how much of Pamela's agency is ignored.

Because Pamela is a god drat saint!

RAPE!

PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

VY till I die


Grimey Drawer

regulargonzalez posted:

Incidentally, I forgot to mention that she is the one who proposed to him. She hasn't had an abusive childhood, she wasn't mentally warped or neurotic or damaged. Why did a staunch feminist propose to him if she had been raped, instead of immediately calling the police or at least never talking to him again?

People LOVE to slot everything from music to human behavior into binary categories. THIS Beatles record is psychedelic, THAT one isn't. THIS behavior is unquestionably wrong (except, apparently, to the people engaged in that behavior) , THAT behavior (and only that behavior) is morally acceptable. Reality has blurrier, fuzzy lines.

There's nothing I'd rather do less than play around in your bullshit about the fuzzy gray areas involved in consent. You're plainly wrong (who gives a poo poo what she did after she got dragged up the stairs by her hair for sex she didn't consent to?), but more importantly, it's a dumb thing to poo poo up this thread with.

BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

Do not post rape hypotheticals or experiences from your own life which could be considered as such, please.

PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

VY till I die


Grimey Drawer

So I just do not think that the attempted rape scene is meant to be taken literally. There's a lot of hyperbole in the show, and I don't just mean the obvious surrealism. Louie is a character so flexible that he can seem like two completely different people from scene to scene, and I think a lot of the more outlandish character moments are meant to be Louie as he sees himself through the lens of his own shame.

There's a normal guy who can raise his children well and shoot the poo poo with his friends at a poker game, but that normal guy looks at his own failings very harshly. For example, the problem he faces dumping his girlfriend turns into an exaggerated scene where she has to pick up on insanely subtle clues and go to ridiculous lengths to drag the truth out of him. He has a bad date with Chelsea Peretti's character, but he looks at it with such anxiety that he sees himself as an absolute train wreck who can't string two sentences together.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002


verybad posted:

I think "right message" is a pretty lovely standard for storytelling.
I think "advocates attempted rape, kinda" is a pretty lovely standard for storytelling too.

regulargonzalez posted:

A lot of really fascinating, well-thought out, true-to-life stuff that's too long to actually quote.
I respect the poo poo out of this post in many ways, because it questions what consent is in a way the episodes didn't, but in many other ways, I feel that none of this matters in this instance, because your examples are real, and weren't shown to millions of people who, like it or not, use media to determine what's normal. Television plays a role in how we as human beings are socialized. It tells us what's okay and what's not okay far more than actually speaking to real people does, for better or worse.

In your two stories, the realities are gray. Louie didn't play this out to make a point about how gray these things are. The show wasn't constructed that way. He played a hapless idiot at the end of his rope (his creative wheelhouse) who was attracted to a really mean, equally screwed up woman who inspires feelings in him that cause abhorrent behavior.

For a moment, it looked like this was a story about sexual assault. In the end, it wasn't. That was just a quick interlude that had little payoff. That's what bothers me.

It's a really adult story, and those stories need to be handled a certain way to not come across as if they're advocating lovely behavior.

Now on an adult level and as an artist (the three most pretentious words in the English language), I applaud him for trying, and think no story should be taboo. But since, as I mentioned, I believe that television is responsible for socializing America (boo, Livid! Boo! I know.), I think artists have a responsibility to portray things in a way that don't contribute to the litany of media that damages social interaction in many capacities. The difference between one and the other can be as simple as shot choice, or even cutting a shot three frames earlier or later. It's not the events. It's how we're shown them.

I'm kind of a killjoy in TVIV (and hilariously enough, SA's Pro Wrestling forum) because I see things this way. A lot of this is probably because I worked in bars throughout my twenties and heard, night after night, the "I'm not racist, but-" or "I'm not homophobic, but-" rhetoric of people who knew that how they viewed the world was frowned upon, but were constantly looking for any validation about their terrible worldviews. I don't like when television serves it to them. It's a shared experience that has far more power than we like to admit. If it weren't so easy to tell the same stories without being damaging, I'd just consider it collateral damage, but one single shot can change the meaning of something so completely that I don't feel like it's too much to ask that we don't tell potential rapists that "hey, it worked for Louie. It wasn't rape, because she really did want him."

I applauded Louie for taking on fat acceptance earlier this season, and I know the guy's heart is in the right place. It's been great fun, as somebody in this thread described it, watching him on his journey from a 40-year-old MRA to a 50-year-old feminist.

I can not like the message an episode of a show I like sends, and still love the show. I love South Park, for gently caress's sake, and they once argued that killing somebody because they're black is no different than killing somebody for any other reason, and shouldn't be treated differently.

The show is great, and I loved this season. I just don't like that Louie (the character) sexually assaulted Pamela (the character), and it was part of how he and I'm being deliberate here obtained her. He won the object by being aggressive.

I really wanted her to take him to task when he called her, and continuously remind him that he tried to rape her, and for him come to grips with what he'd done, while realizing that even her lovely, mean behavior didn't justify it. It really seemed like that's what was coming, too, because Louie the writer even wrote himself as the antagonist from the start. "This would be rape if you weren't such an idiot," etc.

The message I got instead, in the end, is that if you keep trying, and attempt sexual assault, you'll finally get the girl you've been pining for forever. But you have to accept her flaws first. It was pretty muddy. Again, I have no doubt that that is absolutely not something Louis CK thinks. That's not what I'm going for here.

xbilkis posted:

Just because there isn't a big flashing bar that says RAPE IS BAD AND WOMEN SHOULD BE TREATED WITH RESPECT doesn't mean you should try to extract the worst possible reading from the show, because What If Dumber People Misunderstand??
I don't want that. I don't think anybody wants that. That's just obtuse, and bad art. I'm complaining about the show advocating something, and you're acting as if I'm complaining that it's not condemning it. It's two entirely different conversations.

bubblelubble posted:

Goddamn it why are we still on this?
Posts like these are why I keep doing this, just FYI. We're still on this because I refuse to live in a world that won't talk about issues that effect more than half of the population because they make people like you examine things you don't want to.

Anyway, thank you for letting me vomit up a wall of text on the matter. I hope some of it makes sense.

bubblelubble
Feb 26, 2013

scribbled out the truth,
paying in naivety.


LividLiquid posted:

Posts like these are why I keep doing this, just FYI. We're still on this because I refuse to live in a world that won't talk about issues that effect more than half of the population because they make people like you examine things you don't want to.

It's not that I don't want to examine this because, you're right, at least half of the world's population has experienced some kind of sexual assault, and if anything's to be done about that, there needs to be serious, critical discussion. I only meant, by my comment, that I feel the same points are being regurgitated over and over, and that this debate isn't really quite going anywhere.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002


That's fair, and it's understandable to be annoyed by it when you just want to talk about television, so I hope that I can at least keep the discussion grounded in analysis of the show and its messages, and not just a blanket discussion of other issues.

verybad
Apr 23, 2010

Now with 100% less DoTA crotchshots


LividLiquid posted:

I think "advocates attempted rape, kinda" is a pretty lovely standard for storytelling too.

What can I say, I like stories about terrible people and their viewpoints.

(I don't actually agree with your rather cynical reading though)

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002


Not for nothin', but I wrote a lot of words trying to make a point. Too many, really. You called me cynical and called it good.

If you want to tear me apart, can you actually do it, please? I invite the discourse.

White Rabbit
Sep 8, 2004

We Do Not Sow.

what about Obama?

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002


White Rabbit posted:

what about Obama?
gently caress yourself.

Eidt: (Read this in Calamity Jane voice.)

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

verybad
Apr 23, 2010

Now with 100% less DoTA crotchshots


Well, you're interpretation of the events depicted boils down to this:

LividLiquid posted:

He won the object by being aggressive.

and that's just not something I saw happening. There's plenty that other posters have said about the scenes & the storyline, I'm not sure I see the value in mostly reiterating what someone else already said.

Randandal
Feb 26, 2009



I really wanted to stop reading after this

LividLiquid posted:

millions of people who, like it or not, use media to determine what's normal.

because this is a ridiculous argument to make without coming across as being against virtually everything in our pop culture, but then I also read this

LividLiquid posted:

and hilariously enough, SA's Pro Wrestling forum

and I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts on why Pro Wrestling normalizes vicious violence in society in the same way that Louie normalizes rape in society, and why you are one of the few adult viewers intelligent enough to not mindlessly repeat what you see in pop culture. You must have a really exceptional moral compass and intellect far surpassing your peers, and I am thankful for your everpresent sentry upon the zeitgeist.

:allears:

e: If you interpreted the message as being something that could encourage viewers to commit rape, but you didn't go ahead and commit rape after viewing it, did you really get the message at all?

Randandal fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Jun 19, 2014

verybad
Apr 23, 2010

Now with 100% less DoTA crotchshots


Arguing that the media our world view isn't really that controversial, is it? It's a given, really. But it's also very complicated and can't be reduced to "I saw rape, therefore rape is a-OK."

Pron on VHS
Nov 14, 2005

Blood Clots
Sweat Dries
Bones Heal
Suck it Up and Keep Wrestling


I was really blown away by the 2 episodes prior to these last two, the young Louie story. For me it is probably the best stuff the show has done.

EL BROMANCE
Jun 10, 2006

COWABUNGA DUDES!
🥷🐢😬




Pron on VHS posted:

I was really blown away by the 2 episodes prior to these last two, the young Louie story. For me it is probably the best stuff the show has done.

It absolutely is*, and the show has been superb this year. If the same posters who repeatedly post the same whiny poo poo decide they're going to keep watching the show next season, then I'm just going to skip reading the thread because not even the ignore button is enough to clean up the loving mess here.

*although I still think the Late Night triple episode arc from s3 is the best thing he's done. Man, if this season started with those episodes and ended where it did... that would've been just one of the best all round comedy/drama seasons ever in my eyes.

Honore_De_Balzac
Feb 12, 2013



EL BROMANCE posted:

It absolutely is*, and the show has been superb this year. If the same posters who repeatedly post the same whiny poo poo decide they're going to keep watching the show next season, then I'm just going to skip reading the thread because not even the ignore button is enough to clean up the loving mess here.

*although I still think the Late Night triple episode arc from s3 is the best thing he's done. Man, if this season started with those episodes and ended where it did... that would've been just one of the best all round comedy/drama seasons ever in my eyes.

Young Louie is a blast. I especially loved the scene with he and Janis in the hotel room, where they decide to get a divorce. That actor nailed some of his mannerisms, and it really sold it for me.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004




Grimey Drawer

LividLiquid posted:

I think artists have a responsibility to portray things in a way that don't contribute to the litany of media that damages social interaction in many capacities. The difference between one and the other can be as simple as shot choice, or even cutting a shot three frames earlier or later. It's not the events. It's how we're shown them.

[...]

I just don't like that Louie (the character) sexually assaulted Pamela (the character), and it was part of how he and I'm being deliberate here obtained her. He won the object by being aggressive.

I really wanted her to take him to task when he called her, and continuously remind him that he tried to rape her, and for him come to grips with what he'd done, while realizing that even her lovely, mean behavior didn't justify it. It really seemed like that's what was coming, too, because Louie the writer even wrote himself as the antagonist from the start. "This would be rape if you weren't such an idiot," etc.

The message I got instead, in the end, is that if you keep trying, and attempt sexual assault, you'll finally get the girl you've been pining for forever. But you have to accept her flaws first. It was pretty muddy.

I appreciate that you feel strongly about this, but in all honestly, the specific examples I quoted just scream to me that you're bringing your own preconceptions and laying them on top of the show. This is the same kind of argument we heard about Wolf of Wall Street from people who thought it was glorifying Belfort and co. Just because you wanted Pamela to chew Louie out and it didn't happen doesn't mean the show is advocating what he did, holy gently caress!

I'm sorry that a lot of people are stupid. I really am, because it's a consistent pain in the rear end. But it doesn't mean CK should have to dumb down his show or lay out these really obvious "rape is bad" points. There is nothing actually in the scene or any of the following episodes that glorifies what he did or suggests it was in any way okay.

Breadallelogram
Oct 9, 2012




Bown posted:

I appreciate that you feel strongly about this, but in all honestly, the specific examples I quoted just scream to me that you're bringing your own preconceptions and laying them on top of the show. This is the same kind of argument we heard about Wolf of Wall Street from people who thought it was glorifying Belfort and co. Just because you wanted Pamela to chew Louie out and it didn't happen doesn't mean the show is advocating what he did, holy gently caress!

I'm sorry that a lot of people are stupid. I really am, because it's a consistent pain in the rear end. But it doesn't mean CK should have to dumb down his show or lay out these really obvious "rape is bad" points. There is nothing actually in the scene or any of the following episodes that glorifies what he did or suggests it was in any way okay.

Except that he got exactly what he wanted by doing it???

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004




Grimey Drawer

Please explain where the evidence is, in the storyline, that the forced kiss led to him getting her, other than the sequence of events happening in that order. If anything, their conversation at the beginning of pt 2 makes it clear they haven't spoken for at least a short while (mirroring the break between parts) and that it made things really loving awkward between them? The outcome you're presenting just doesn't exist in the text, anywhere.

Honore_De_Balzac
Feb 12, 2013



Breadallelogram posted:

Except that he got exactly what he wanted by doing it???

And that is how life works sometimes. Bad things can come without consequences. Pamela could easily have not thought much about the situation other than "man, Louie is pathetic". I guarantee her character has experienced much worse, and would have shrugged it off just the same. That is deeply ingrained into her character. She has issues and those didn't just come out of no where.

Really it is just asinine you dweebs are getting so upset. Louie, the writer is saying exactly what you want him to say, yet anything short of his character going to jail is him advocating rape??? The reason he drags his character through mud is to convey a message. Not one second of that scene says "good work Louie, you did it!". I applaud his bravery to portray his character(an extension of how the public views he himself) in such a negative light in order to discuss a subject most everyone would be afraid to mention.

precision
May 7, 2006

hug your posting pals


Bown posted:

Please explain where the evidence is, in the storyline, that the forced kiss led to him getting her, other than the sequence of events happening in that order.

I feel like a fundamental flaw in people's criticism of media is "if thing A happens before thing B, thing B is a result of thing A!"

It's stupid.

BrownThunder
Oct 26, 2005

EXTEND BEN!
Forever and ever and ever


Lock the thread until next season please????

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002


BrownThunder posted:

Lock the thread until next season please????
If you don't want to read discussion about the show, why are you here?

BrownThunder
Oct 26, 2005

EXTEND BEN!
Forever and ever and ever


LividLiquid posted:

If you don't want to read discussion about the show, why are you here?

Because I want to read discussion about the show and not rape stories?

greatn
Nov 15, 2006

by Lowtax


Only one guy is really posting those, you can put him on ignore.

Illinois Smith
Nov 15, 2003

Ninety-one? There are ninety other "Tiger Drivers"? Do any involve actual tigers, or driving?


Pron on VHS posted:

I was really blown away by the 2 episodes prior to these last two, the young Louie story. For me it is probably the best stuff the show has done.
yeah but how many laffs did you get out of them

BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

I think a large part of why this season is so jarring (though not necessarily worse or better) is that it's the first time that Louie has been very unsympathetic or unlikeable in parts. In all of the earlier seasons he was schlubby, average joe who we were meant to side with and just go "Oh, Louie!" when he fucks up. I may be forgetting something but I can't remember any moments in the earlier seasons where I was outright not on his side.

A lot of this season I think is trying to complicate this mentality and show why uncritically sympathising that average schlubby joe, not just in Louie but in broader pop culture, can be a bad thing.

passionate dongs
May 22, 2001

Snitchin' is Bitchin'

BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:

I think a large part of why this season is so jarring (though not necessarily worse or better) is that it's the first time that Louie has been very unsympathetic or unlikeable in parts. In all of the earlier seasons he was schlubby, average joe who we were meant to side with and just go "Oh, Louie!" when he fucks up. I may be forgetting something but I can't remember any moments in the earlier seasons where I was outright not on his side.

A lot of this season I think is trying to complicate this mentality and show why uncritically sympathising that average schlubby joe, not just in Louie but in broader pop culture, can be a bad thing.
I think I like this season a lot because of that. IMO it was less entertaining, but I appreciate him continually trying challenge himself and challenge his audience. I like louis as cynical feminist dad guy, but keeping to that schtick would've quickly become stale without complicating it a bit.

Playing out a cliched TV romance(s) that involve uncomfortable coercion/forced kissing is terribly hard to watch, but I can't say that I've seen too many shows that have involved that.

passionate dongs fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jun 20, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Four's an odd season because it had the truly excellent In The Woods and Pamela Part 2, the very good Pamela Part 3 and Model, and the ok ep 1, fat lady, and elevator part 1, but then the stinky doo doo elevator 2-6 and Pamela part 1.

2 > 1 > 4 > 3, though the 4 lows were the lowest of all


Highlight of the season was the crotch... sexting? Didn't really understand the weird gender reversal that Louie has in Pamela part 3, when he acts like a huge loser again instead of coolguy. I like watching the cool guy better, it gives me good feels.

precision
May 7, 2006

hug your posting pals


What do you have against season 3? I liked it more than 1 or 2, personally.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


precision posted:

What do you have against season 3? I liked it more than 1 or 2, personally.
In S1 and S2, and the good parts of S4, Louie's basically sympathetic. He's put in situations and then acts in ways that one could imagine a human, even yourself, acting. Too many examples to count. Even when he screws up, like in Cop Movie, you totally understand where he's coming from.

In S3 he becomes this disgusting simpering loser and constantly does things that I'm sure CK himself finds disgusting. The weird way he smiles at Liz at the end of the episode, his total passivity with which he tries to receive attention, his complete lack of internal direction (the Maron scene was funny, because he appeared to actually have a thing he wanted to do). He's this lovely fat ball of anxiety constantly looking for external validation, which is clearly NOT what Louis CK himself is. He's quite often written to be reviled and disgusted by, which I think does the audience a disfavor compared to something like In The Woods where the exact lesson is unclear.

You get that guy again in most of Elevator when he acts in a way that's sympathetic to no one, but then in some of the other episodes his actions are pretty sympathetic, like, I could see why a human would make those decisions while not sucking at life. Just watching someone suck at life is a waste of time.

King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

The video arcade made me what I am today!



No Wave posted:

You get that guy again in most of Elevator when he acts in a way that's sympathetic to no one...

Yes, because nobody in the history of the world has ever been kind, or put themselves in vulnerable positions and set themselves up for hurt because they wanted to give their love to someone.

But I'll agree that Season 3 was incredibly weak. I don't even really remember what happened that season, at all, I just remember barely paying attention to it.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


King Vidiot posted:

Yes, because nobody in the history of the world has ever been kind, or put themselves in vulnerable positions and set themselves up for hurt because they wanted to give their love to someone.

But I'll agree that Season 3 was incredibly weak. I don't even really remember what happened that season, at all, I just remember barely paying attention to it.
When is he kind? He wants to be a consumer of love, he wants to do the love thing, and I like Pamela 3 better because he actually put it that way. If love was a package he could buy off the shelf he'd do it, and he tries, by re-enacting his previous romantic experiences at Russ and Daughters with Amia. I don't think CK is so stupid that he doesn't see this, but I think portraying something fundamentally ugly instead of something fundamentally noble is a waste of film.

Also not sure what vulnerable positions or hurt you're talking about. What is "vulnerable"? An expectation that people like it when you act like a pathetic sadsack wuss? When he tries to shame Pamela into acting the way he wants her to by trying to (poorly) convince her she's a bad person for not being more affectionate - who's being the bully? (the more pressing question: why would she put up with that poo poo?)

No Wave fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Jun 20, 2014

ChairMaster
Aug 22, 2009

by R. Guyovich


No Wave posted:

but I think portraying something fundamentally ugly instead of something fundamentally noble is a waste of film.

What the gently caress

that's the dumbest thing i've ever read in my whole life

I feel like if this show was exactly the same except Louie CK was the showrunner and the main character was played by someone else with a different name people wouldn't have any of these stupid-rear end problems with it.

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Honore_De_Balzac
Feb 12, 2013



No Wave posted:

I think portraying something fundamentally ugly instead of something fundamentally noble is a waste of film.


.....

e.

ChairMaster posted:

What the gently caress

that's the dumbest thing i've ever read in my whole life

I feel like if this show was exactly the same except Louie CK was the showrunner and the main character was played by someone else with a different name people wouldn't have any of these stupid-rear end problems with it.

glad I'm not the only one. If this is really your opinion NoWave you might be the first person to make my ignore list.

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