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King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

The video arcade made me what I am today!



No Wave posted:

An expectation that people like it when you act like a pathetic sadsack wuss?

Yeah, except Louie wasn't acting then. His "act" was when he was groping Pamela and getting rough and assertive with her because he thought that was what she wanted, and that it was the only way to move forward in their relationship.

And then there's this:

quote:

Didn't really understand the weird gender reversal that Louie has in Pamela part 3, when he acts like a huge loser again instead of coolguy.

So, the first thing... am I reading this correctly? You think that men are all supposed to be Pamelas and all women should be Louies? You think men are all emotionally repressed, and assertive, and need to take charge all the time, and women are all overemotional, "pathetic" (your words) and weak?

Second thing, when was Louie a cool guy? When he was groping and tearing at Pamela's clothes in the first part? Because it sounds like that's what you were getting at. You seemed to like Part 1 a lot more than the other parts.

edit: Also yeah, all shows should just completely be Dudebros picking up women by being Coolguys, none of that messy, "ugly" human emotion poo poo. I mean... yuck!

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Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004




Grimey Drawer

No Wave you must really hate Gaspar Noe movies

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Honore_De_Balzac posted:

glad I'm not the only one. If this is really your opinion NoWave you might be the first person to make my ignore list.
go 4 it


King Vidiot posted:

So, the first thing... am I reading this correctly? You think that men are all supposed to be Pamelas and all women should be Louies? You think men are all emotionally repressed, and assertive, and need to take charge all the time, and women are all overemotional, "pathetic" (your words) and weak?

Second thing, when was Louie a cool guy? When he was groping and tearing at Pamela's clothes in the first part? Because it sounds like that's what you were getting at. You seemed to like Part 1 a lot more than the other parts.

edit: Also yeah, all shows should just completely be Dudebros picking up women by being Coolguys, none of that messy, "ugly" human emotion poo poo. I mean... yuck!
I didn't imply that Pamela should act like Louie was. That was your reading. Where did that come from?


But the whole "no, I'm fat", "no, you're fine, blah blah" is an interaction where stereotypically the genders are reversed, and I'm assuming that this informs the scene. Not to mention that Pamela entices Louie with a sexy bathtub with candles and poo poo, which is usually a very typical way of representing a guy trying to do something romantic for a girl. I guess my recognition of that could make you call me a sexist or something.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jun 20, 2014

Honore_De_Balzac
Feb 12, 2013



No Wave posted:

go 4 it

I didn't imply that Pamela should act like Louie was. That was your reading. Where did that come from?


But the whole "no, I'm fat", "no, you're fine, blah blah" is an interaction where stereotypically the genders are reversed, and I'm assuming that this informs the scene. Not to mention that Pamela entices Louie with a sexy bathtub with candles and poo poo, which is usually a very typical way of representing a guy trying to do something romantic for a girl. I guess my recognition of that could make you call me a sexist or something.

Naw, seems like it would mess with the flow of threads when someone undoubtedly has to respond to your idiocy. Plus you are good for a laugh.

greatn
Nov 15, 2006

by Lowtax


Did anyone else just find out that Pamela Adlon is Bobby Hill?

precision
May 7, 2006

hug your posting pals


Bown posted:

No Wave you must really hate Gaspar Noe movies

Ahahahaha.

King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

The video arcade made me what I am today!



I disagree with No Wave on pretty much everything but I hated Gaspar Noe's Irreversible. I wouldn't say that it was a "waste of film" though, just that it depicted ugliness and negativity so well that it made me ill and I wish I hadn't seen it.

Maybe it wasn't that I hated it inasmuch as I hated the experience of watching it.

Illinois Smith
Nov 15, 2003

Ninety-one? There are ninety other "Tiger Drivers"? Do any involve actual tigers, or driving?


No Wave posted:

Not to mention that Pamela entices Louie with a sexy bathtub with candles and poo poo, which is usually a very typical way of representing a guy trying to do something romantic for a girl. I guess my recognition of that could make you call me a sexist or something.
Wait, did you somehow miss that this was a callback to the last time they were close to hooking up two seasons ago? Even though Pamela looked straight at the camera and said HEY REMEMBER BATHS?

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Illinois Smith posted:

Wait, did you somehow miss that this was a callback to the last time they were close to hooking up two seasons ago? Even though Pamela looked straight at the camera and said HEY REMEMBER BATHS?
Could it be both? I wonder if Louie displacing all the water and making a mess comments upon what a bad fit he is for the role he's chosen to take on, especially compared to the last episode?

BB2K
Oct 9, 2012


pretty sure that was just a very funny fat joke

fletcher
Jun 27, 2003

ken park is my favorite movie

Cybernetic Crumb

I'd be pissed if a girlfriend got rid of all my old ugly poo poo without asking me first. I love my old ugly poo poo.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


fletcher posted:

I'd be pissed if a girlfriend got rid of all my old ugly poo poo without asking me first. I love my old ugly poo poo.
Agreed. You can see how forced it is when Louie makes himself laugh as if it's a cute thing to do.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Jun 21, 2014

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang





No Wave posted:

Agreed. You can see how forced it is when Louie makes himself laugh as if it's a cute thing to do.

Yeah he shouldn't have written the show like that if he didnt like those things.

regulargonzalez
Aug 18, 2006
UNGH LET ME LICK THOSE BOOTS DADDY HULU ;-* ;-* ;-* YES YES GIVE ME ALL THE CORPORATE CUMMIES :shepspends: :shepspends: :shepspends: ADBLOCK USERS DESERVE THE DEATH PENALTY, DON'T THEY DADDY?
WHEN THE RICH GET RICHER I GET HORNIER :a2m::a2m::a2m::a2m:


King Vidiot posted:

I disagree with No Wave on pretty much everything but I hated Gaspar Noe's Irreversible. I wouldn't say that it was a "waste of film" though, just that it depicted ugliness and negativity so well that it made me ill and I wish I hadn't seen it.

Maybe it wasn't that I hated it inasmuch as I hated the experience of watching it.

I had kind of the same reaction the first time I watched Miike's 'Audition'. I thought about it for several days and realized that that is one of the purposes of art; not to reaffirm things we believe and think and to simply act as an echo chamber, but to present alternate viewpoints and challenge our assumptions. That, imo, is literally one of the core missions of art. Art shouldn't, or at least shouldn't always, be safe and comforting. It should feel a little dangerous, a little reckless, it should present the world in a way I might not have otherwise considered.

Looking at Audition and Irreversible in that light, I think they're both great movies.

precision
May 7, 2006

hug your posting pals


Audition is a brilliant horror film because of how much of a study in restraint it is. Very, very little of the runtime of the film is devoted to actually showing violence/horror. It's pretty much the polar opposite of another film of his, Visitor Q, which is pretty much a nonstop parade of :gonk: :stare:

passionate dongs
May 22, 2001

Snitchin' is Bitchin'

regulargonzalez posted:

I had kind of the same reaction the first time I watched Miike's 'Audition'. I thought about it for several days and realized that that is one of the purposes of art; not to reaffirm things we believe and think and to simply act as an echo chamber, but to present alternate viewpoints and challenge our assumptions. That, imo, is literally one of the core missions of art. Art shouldn't, or at least shouldn't always, be safe and comforting. It should feel a little dangerous, a little reckless, it should present the world in a way I might not have otherwise considered.

Looking at Audition and Irreversible in that light, I think they're both great movies.
I feel that anything that leaves me thinking about it later, in any capacity really, was worth seeing. Even if infuriating/dumb/horrifying. Which is why I don't expect laughs from Louie, I guess.

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang





Art can make you laugh!

...It should make you laugh. It should make you cry and think and laugh and sweat. As above, art has only failed if you look at it and turn away and don't give a poo poo.

Trash Trick
Apr 17, 2014



Art can make you horny as well.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


I'd rather it present perspectives that someone actually believes and not idiot dummy figures whose mistakes are obvious and we totally know better from the get-go. It's the difference between the scene where Louie doesn't know what to do when Blueberries woman starts crying and when he basically tries to rape Pamela. There's an obvious "right" answer known to everyone in the second situation, whereas the first actually represents reality as it's confusing to navigate.

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang





So these two scenes, whereof one is a good scene and the other is poo poo, but they're similar as hell, sorry idgi

Space Hamlet
Aug 24, 2009

not listening
not listening


No Wave posted:

I'd rather it present perspectives that someone actually believes and not idiot dummy figures whose mistakes are obvious and we totally know better from the get-go. It's the difference between the scene where Louie doesn't know what to do when Blueberries woman starts crying and when he basically tries to rape Pamela. There's an obvious "right" answer known to everyone in the second situation, whereas the first actually represents reality as it's confusing to navigate.

19th century theater consigned to the "bad art" pile

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004




Grimey Drawer

All sexual assaults in movies are a waste of film because nobody actually thinks acting that way is ok!.....wait a minute this sounds wrong/dumb as hell

Tom Toddlesworth
Nov 4, 2008

There is something profoundly erotic about the cosmos.


I really enjoyed this season of Louie. In my opinion the first few episodes were miles better than the last few though...I quite enjoyed the sequence with the Hungarian lady, but the last bit with Pamela was neither funny nor great in any other fashion just IMO.

Binary Logic
Dec 28, 2000

Wash Your Hands


Fun Shoe

Louie's interest in a meteor shower was good to see, if completely unexpected based on everything else we know about him. But he could become the Neil Degrasse Tyson of stand up comics.

"Y'ever notice stars, they're such assholes. Think about it. Always looking down on us and acting so smug. Oh you humans think you're such hot poo poo, well we were here before your species existed and will still be here long after you've all gone extinct. Oh you sent a rover to Mars to take some pictures? Are we supposed to be impressed? Why don'tcha come visit one of us oh that's right it's because you barely evolved apes can't figure out how.
Stars are loving assholes, man. No really I mean it."

Randandal
Feb 26, 2009



Binary Logic posted:

Louie's interest in a meteor shower was good to see, if completely unexpected based on everything else we know about him. But he could become the Neil Degrasse Tyson of stand up comics.

"Y'ever notice stars, they're such assholes. Think about it. Always looking down on us and acting so smug. Oh you humans think you're such hot poo poo, well we were here before your species existed and will still be here long after you've all gone extinct. Oh you sent a rover to Mars to take some pictures? Are we supposed to be impressed? Why don'tcha come visit one of us oh that's right it's because you barely evolved apes can't figure out how.
Stars are loving assholes, man. No really I mean it."

I'm suddenly filled with a burning desire to see Louis CK guest-host or guest-direct an episode of Cosmos.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


So, I have kind of a weird pet theory: The art show that Pamela and Louie visit is Louis's brain, or rather, it's a scene that is supposed to represent Pamela getting to know Louie. They go along and things get weirder and weirder. Ultimately getting to the very bottom of his brain, finding all the bodies, and then decide to move on.

Frostwerks
Sep 24, 2007

by Lowtax


Timeless Appeal posted:

So, I have kind of a weird pet theory: The art show that Pamela and Louie visit is Louis's brain, or rather, it's a scene that is supposed to represent Pamela getting to know Louie. They go along and things get weirder and weirder. Ultimately getting to the very bottom of his brain, finding all the bodies, and then decide to move on.

And in the end all he wants to do is eat.

moller
Jan 10, 2007

Swan stole my music and framed me!


Frostwerks posted:

And in the end all he wants to do is eat.

Eating and loving are all any living thing is here for. Thousands of generations of your predecessors ate enough and that is why you are alive. So I agree with Louie here.

Kampfbereit
Sep 6, 2011


precision posted:

Audition is a brilliant horror film because of how much of a study in restraint it is. Very, very little of the runtime of the film is devoted to actually showing violence/horror. It's pretty much the polar opposite of another film of his, Visitor Q, which is pretty much a nonstop parade of :gonk: :stare:

I love that the horrible weed of rapechat has blossomed into this beautiful flower. Miike's Visitor Q and Noe's Seul Contre Tous are two of my favourite films ever. I'm guessing that anyone who calls Louie a creepy rapist based on his lame attempts at kissing haven't seen them. Y'all need to get desensitized!

bubblelubble
Feb 26, 2013

scribbled out the truth,
paying in naivety.


This article/opinion piece pretty much nailed it for me in regards to *that* scene.

http://junkee.com/on-louie-season-four-and-the-so-called-attempted-rape/36895

moller
Jan 10, 2007

Swan stole my music and framed me!



If you haven't seen it you should check out The Happiness of the Katakuris. It has a similar structure and tone despite being a musical set in a rural area.

Vegetable
Oct 22, 2010



bubblelubble posted:

This article/opinion piece pretty much nailed it for me in regards to *that* scene.

http://junkee.com/on-louie-season-four-and-the-so-called-attempted-rape/36895
I take issue with the general argument of the piece. The author's general point is that Louie was not raping Pamela because both parties understood the subtext of the scene. Louie knows Pamela is just trying to deny she likes him, and Pamela knows Louie is just trying to get her to acknowledge that. In the author's words, "She knows the intention behind Louie’s hideous behavior: not to abuse a woman into satisfying his own sexual desires, but to wrench an acknowledgement from her – in the most misguided way — that she is interested in him." Because each party know exactly what the other party wants, it cannot be rape.

The problem with this argument is that it feeds into an existing depiction of sexual assault in rape culture: that because a man thinks he knows what the woman wants, he can ignore what the woman says. This becomes less an isolated act and more a moralistic message when Louie is not punished, but even rewarded later for his behavior. This suggests yes, the man did know what the woman wanted, and contextualizes his rape scene as acceptable. Louis CK may not have intended to endorse this type of sexual assault, but it's hard to deny his scene feeds into a popular depiction in rape culture.

But rather than dismiss Louis CK's intention, I'd like to consider what he actually did mean to say. I think what he was trying to depict (as mentioned by several others here) is that a likable, ordinary character on TV can be just as prone as creepy weirdos to committing sexual assault. That he actually succeeds in winning the girl's heart is testament to Louie shrugging his shoulders and saying, "Sometimes these bastards win." It's not an inherently bad message. But when you highlight one narrative over another ("rapist gets the girl" over "rapist gently caress lives up"), you inevitably send a message too. I suspect in a world where rape culture wasn't so powerful, we could read Louie's scene more as "one of those things that happen". But in the context of many men already thinking the depicted behavior of sexual assault is okay, it's hard to watch Louie without considering its role in normalizing rape culture.

Really hope this does not kick up a nest of "Oh this again" remarks. I think Louis CK intended for the scene to generate a constructive dialogue on rape, and I doubt he thinks he should be immune to criticism in that respect.

Trash Trick
Apr 17, 2014



Rape culture is messed up! And bad!

JakeP
Apr 27, 2003

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


Lipstick Apathy

greatn posted:

Did anyone else just find out that Pamela Adlon is Bobby Hill?

lol thats so cool

Beamed
Nov 26, 2010

Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.




So uh, did anyone else catch the parallels between the possibly-fake-Model-episode and the rape-esque Pamela episode, where he smirked at the end after getting what he wanted from the woman he was pursuing? Might be some parallels there that we can focus on instead of a 50 page derail.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004




Grimey Drawer

There could be something in the use of male force there. Even though each time is a different gender not properly comprehending what the other is trying to communicate, the women are the ones who end up with force being used against them on both occasions. Maybe not, though.

Red
Apr 15, 2003

Yeah, great at getting us into trouble.




This is a good article, even if a bit wordy and blowhard-y.

Although, I had no idea the ratings for Louie sucked.

Gianthogweed
Jun 3, 2004

"And then I see the disinfectant...where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that. Uhh, by injection inside..." - a Very Stable Genius.

funniest old Louis CK bit.
http://youtu.be/ehWAV_az0OI?t=19m29s

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002


So Pamela Adlon plays basically the same character on Californication, and that character was also almost raped in that show's finale. The dialog is even very close.

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emgeejay
Dec 8, 2007

and if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

I don't think Pamela and Louie are going to be together for all of season 5 -- or even most of season 5 -- but then again, I never thought season 4 would have three feature-length multi-episode arcs, so what do I know.

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